PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I don't hold a belief. I lack belief. Again, disbelief does not equal belief.

If you 'lack' a belief in God then it could be argued that you believe that God does not exists, therefore you have a 'belief'. :bnghd:

It doesn't matter if it could be argued, it doesn't make it so.

It could be argued that there is a god: this doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
In that case, it'd be a matter of believing that since there is no evidence for any deities, then the idea of their being any deities is not worth considering.

Incorrect, but I'm not going to go through this again.

But when you disbelieve something or lack belief in something that in itself carries assertions and reasons. So long as there are assertions and reasons one could argue that you're dealing with a belief system.

No. There are reasons and assertions for accepting that 1+1=2. This is not a matter of belief and it is not in any way a "belief system".

Let's take lack of belief in God as an example. Why would you lack belief in God? I'd say the only two good enough reasons not to believe in God would be that He probably doesn't exist or that He doesn't exist (of course there is logic and evidence that precedes these conclusions). Correct me if I'm wrong. And if your belief that God doesn't exist does not carry one of those assertions, then why do you hold the belief?

I don't hold a belief. I lack belief. Again, disbelief does not equal belief.

Why do you lack belief in the existence of God?

Like I said before, it's either:

1) Because you believe God probably doesn't exist.

2) Because you believe God doesn't exist.

Your disbelief in God asserts that the probability of God existing is not great enough for you to believe in His existence or that you simply think He doesn't exist.

How is atheism not a belief?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by something wicked

You may believe in unnamed Gods but not named ones?

You misunderstand. I hold three main positions;

1 – I believe that those named gods that I know of (the Christian god, Allah etc) do not exist. I say this based on the evidence found in the teachings of these religions.

2 – I do not believe that a god or gods do not exist but nor do I believe that they exist. I say this because I have no means of knowing whether or not they exist or not.

3 – As in two I believe that the existence of some supernatural deity is cannot be determined.

In one I am an atheist meaning that I believe that these gods do not exist.

In two I am an atheist meaning that I do not believe that these gods exist.

In three I am agnostic meaning that I believe that these gods existence cannot be determined.

I am thus complex…

Or more relevantly I am an agnostic atheist with certain caveats.

The only way I could be described as not being an atheist is if I believed in a god which I do not.



[edit on 30-7-2010 by Mike_A]

Originally posted by Mike_A
Then what is the belief? If belief is something that is held to be true what does someone who lacks a belief hold to be true?

We don't believe that god exists but we also don't believe that god does not exist. Where is the belief in that?

As I said earlier I think the word faith needs to be introduced to clarify this.

There is a difference between belief and 'a belief' meaning a faith in a deity. An atheist believes that God does not exist. We cannot also 'believe' that there is a possibility that God exists. That is a contradiction.

My belief that God does not exist is not 'a belief' in the sense of any faith. I do not belong to the Church of Atheism, in other words I do not subscribe to what is called a 'belief system' which is just another word for a religion.

I believe it is the truth that God does not exist. That IS a belief. That is NOT a lack of belief, but rather a lack of 'a belief' as in a religion. Definitely not the same thing.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


:shk: See above.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by ChickenPie
How is atheism not a belief?

For all the reasons I've listed already. I'd suggest rereading them.

It's okay though, if you are unable to understand that the antonym to a word is not in fact that word then so be it. You won't be the first.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
How is atheism not a belief?

For all the reasons I've listed already. I'd suggest rereading them.

It's okay though, if you are unable to understand that the antonym to a word is not in fact that word then so be it. You won't be the first.

Or... you could just be being completely unreasonable and not know it.

You won't even properly respond to my posts. You have yet to tell me whether or not I am correct when I say that you believe the existence of God is improbable or that you believe God does not exist. It's either one of the two, but you're too scared to answer because I'm too awesome. I see how it is.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by Mike_A


You is very confused!!!!

You is an agnostic!

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Right. We can never know for sure that there is or is not a God as long as God is defined as supernatural and is therefore outside the realm of scientific inquiry and objectively verifiable evidence.

If we accept God as part of the natural world, as part of the Universe, than it may be possible to prove his/her/its existence but it would still be impossible to disprove its existence without searching 100% of the Universe.

We are therefore ALL agnostics when it comes to the actuality of gods and can really only either believe or lack belief (theism and atheism).

Well, I largely agree with this restatement, except to say that it renders the whole of it useless, because the "agnostic" bit, applied universally, becomes a worthless designation, and, again, the "theist/atheist" bit represents an arbitrary decision made in a vacuum.

Many theists (including myself) have chosen that path because of events in our lives that point to God, so I would struggle with saying that the choice of faith has been made in the space of knowing nothing about God, in which case the agnosticism definition fails.

I wonder if one might state that a theist is a theist for a reason (whatever that reason might be) and an atheist is an atheist for lack of a reason. (Not for "lack of reason", I'm not viewing this as an insulting statement.) Whether the reason is valid or not doesn't matter to the statement.

reply to post by ChickenPie


Here's a simple way to understand it:

Darkness is the absence of light.

Atheism is the absence of belief in God.

You wouldn't call the absence of belief a belief would you?

reply to post by adjensen

again, the "theist/atheist" bit represents an arbitrary decision made in a vacuum.

Not in a vacuum. While we may not ever be able to know for sure whether a god exists we are not without knowledge on a great deal of other subjects. Since we lack evidence for a god it is foolhardy to believe in one, at least that's my position. It is the same reason I reject unicorns, fairies and goblins, without evidence there is no cause to believe even if we can't rule it out completely in the realm of knowledge.

so I would struggle with saying that the choice of faith has been made in the space of knowing nothing about God

It is probably in response to what you believe you know about God.

Prayers that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, coincidences that seem like destiny, scriptures in a sacred document, the words of a preacher can all shape the God you believe in and seem like knowledge. It gets to the point where you believe you KNOW for sure in your HEART that a God exists.

But what do you really KNOW about God? What can be objectively verified beyond your subjective experiences and what you were told to believe about God?



[edit on 30-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
How is atheism not a belief?

For all the reasons I've listed already. I'd suggest rereading them.

It's okay though, if you are unable to understand that the antonym to a word is not in fact that word then so be it. You won't be the first.

Or... you could just be being completely unreasonable and not know it.

You're more than welcome to point out where I have been and I'll consider it and even agree with you if you can demonstrate it. Still though, if you cannot accept living in a world where atheism is not a belief then so be it. Antonyms are synonyms, cats are dogs, etc. That's your business.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

Here's a simple way to understand it:

Darkness is the absence of light.

Atheism is the absence of belief in God.

You wouldn't call the absence of belief a belief would you?

But what are his reasons for his lack of belief? Once he admits to them he will find that they'll filled with assertions.

Originally posted by ChickenPie
You won't even properly respond to my posts. You have yet to tell me whether or not I am correct when I say that you believe the existence of God is improbable or that you believe God does not exist. It's either one of the two, but you're too scared to answer because I'm too awesome. I see how it is.

I've responded categorically and coherently, yet you are unable to deviate from your redundant assertions. You're not much different than the theist who demands I prove his/her god doesn't exist. It's quite droll and I've simply accepted that you're unable to comprehend.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

Here's a simple way to understand it:

Darkness is the absence of light.

Atheism is the absence of belief in God.

You wouldn't call the absence of belief a belief would you?

Sorry Wrong!!! Darkness and Light have nothing to do with this an they are physical elements and can be proven/dis-proven.

Atheism is the BELIEF that God does not exist. Not the same thing.

See my earlier post.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
How is atheism not a belief?

For all the reasons I've listed already. I'd suggest rereading them.

It's okay though, if you are unable to understand that the antonym to a word is not in fact that word then so be it. You won't be the first.

Or... you could just be being completely unreasonable and not know it.

You're more than welcome to point out where I have been and I'll consider it and even agree with you if you can demonstrate it. Still though, if you cannot accept living in a world where atheism is not a belief then so be it. Antonyms are synonyms, cats are dogs, etc. That's your business.

What are your reasons for your lack of belief in God?

reply to post by PuterMan

An atheist believes that God does not exist.

Sorry I just don’t understand how this made it into your post, I wrote in my post “We don't believe that god exists but we also don't believe that god does not exist”. I said this specifically to pre-empt your reply.

Although Atheism can describe people who have this belief it isn’t the meaning of the word. I really don’t know how else to say it, atheism is the lack of belief not the belief that god does not exist.

Plenty have said this in this thread, we are atheists, we know what we do and do not believe.

So again, give the fact that we do not believe that a god or god does not exist where is the belief? What do we hold to be true in this?

I’m really not trying to be rude but it has been stated numerous times on each and every page. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods, it is not the belief that there are no gods.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
You won't even properly respond to my posts. You have yet to tell me whether or not I am correct when I say that you believe the existence of God is improbable or that you believe God does not exist. It's either one of the two, but you're too scared to answer because I'm too awesome. I see how it is.

I've responded categorically and coherently, yet you are unable to deviate from your redundant assertions. You're not much different than the theist who demands I prove his/her god doesn't exist. It's quite droll and I've simply accepted that you're unable to comprehend.

This is getting tiresome. You disbelieve God's existence.... lack belief in God's existence... don't believe in God's existence--whatever.

What I'm asking now is for your reasons. Or are you telling me you have none? [snip]

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]



Removed personal attack

[edit on 30/7/10 by masqua]

Originally posted by ChickenPie
What are your reasons for your lack of belief in God?

No objective evidence confirming the existence of a deity.

...

reply to post by ChickenPie

But what are his reasons for his lack of belief?

I can't speak for him but for me personally I just don't see any evidence for the existence of any deity or deities.

In the absence of objective evidence for god there's really no reason to cling to a belief in one.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
What are your reasons for your lack of belief in God?

No objective evidence confirming the existence of a deity.

...

Which leads you to conclude...?

reply to post by ChickenPie

What I'm asking now is for your reasons. Or are you telling me you have none? If you're too stupid to answer the question, then just say so.

You asked me the same question and I gave you the answer on page nine posted on 30-7-2010 @ 02:26 PM but you didn’t reply.

[snip]



removed personal attack

[edit on 30/7/10 by masqua]