What If Adam and Eve Didn't Sin?

Provided that the Adam and Eve story were true, then I highly doubt that the Earth will be populated by nudies.

From what I read in the Bible as well as the supplementary texts associated with it, Adam is some kind of God's pet. After that, for some reason God created Eve. Maybe God's getting pissed off of Adam's ADD.

Also, Adam was in Eden which in turn was in the 7th heaven. Not on Earth.

Then there's this annoying blocker called "Free Will" that populates the God debate. Go to one side and God becomes this purveyor of open-mindedness because he gave his creations "Free Will". Yes. Including those blasted angels. With former angels being the bad guys, and humans having a good chance of having an eternal death/lake of fire/whatever. It makes God look like a sadistic fellow. That or He is just prone to making imperfect (screw-ups) toys.

It makes the whole scheme of Judeo-Christianity look like a heaping pile of excuses.

My apologies if someone already posted this.

Originally posted by Unregistered
Provided that the Adam and Eve story were true, then I highly doubt that the Earth will be populated by nudies.

From what I read in the Bible as well as the supplementary texts associated with it, Adam is some kind of God's pet. After that, for some reason God created Eve. Maybe God's getting pissed off of Adam's ADD.

Also, Adam was in Eden which in turn was in the 7th heaven. Not on Earth.

Then there's this annoying blocker called "Free Will" that populates the God debate. Go to one side and God becomes this purveyor of open-mindedness because he gave his creations "Free Will". Yes. Including those blasted angels. With former angels being the bad guys, and humans having a good chance of having an eternal death/lake of fire/whatever. It makes God look like a sadistic fellow. That or He is just prone to making imperfect (screw-ups) toys.

It makes the whole scheme of Judeo-Christianity look like a heaping pile of excuses.

My apologies if someone already posted this.

OMG, if i were you i would be careful what i say, or this dude :www.abovetopsecret.com... might say this: "Oh wow! I don't even know how to respond to such an absurd post. I hope you get help ! "

better watch out

reply to post by Hitotsumami


The "allegories and metaphors" allow believers to twist doctrine in their favor when they see fit. I am pretty sure God would have been direct in his teachings if he truly wished for us to follow them. I also don't think he would have us rely on "faith" and give us a nudge on the shoulder to acknowledge his existence. It's funny how Christians can quote scripture all day but fail to see a blatant contradiction within the first two chapters of the bible pertaining to the story of creation which I will now break down:

Genesis 1: Earth is created. Universe is created. Then animals. Then humans.

Genesis 2: Earth is created. Universe is created. Then humans. Then animals.


This is just dipping a toe into the proverbial waters of creationism and does not begin to list the other contradictions made evident.

Originally posted by XtheMasque
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

The "allegories and metaphors" allow believers to twist doctrine in their favor when they see fit. I am pretty sure God would have been direct in his teachings if he truly wished for us to follow them. I also don't think he would have us rely on "faith" and give us a nudge on the shoulder to acknowledge his existence. It's funny how Christians can quote scripture all day but fail to see a blatant contradiction within the first two chapters of the bible pertaining to the story of creation which I will now break down:

Genesis 1: Earth is created. Universe is created. Then animals. Then humans.

Genesis 2: Earth is created. Universe is created. Then humans. Then animals.


This is just dipping a toe into the proverbial waters of creationism and does not begin to list the other contradictions made evident.

Ah, yes, I have to agree with you. I do not see how God would make us rely solely on faith or make his teachings so 'allegorical' and 'metaphorical'.

About your contradiction example. I think I may have a possible solution for that! I have heard before that the animals created after Adam were just a second copy of the previous animals, and God did this to give Adam a chance to name them all one at a time.

I do not quite buy this! Could Got not have let Adam view each animal he already created without having to create another? I do think he could, since he is all powerful!

Thank you for the response.

Kind regards

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

I see! If what you say is true, that the original definition of the sin is not what it is today, why did God not specify this clearly, because a HUGE majority believe it has the connotations you say it was not intended to have.

I would say this is the case because God did not write the Bible. People did. Discerning the will of God was never meant to be done via a book, it was meant to be done by an internal process. It wasnt meant to be done through priests, but by direct contact with the Divine, an internal dialogue with the "Holy Spirit." (Which had filled Jesus himself at his Baptism)

www.jesuscentral.com... ad&show=Journals

"If you love me, keep my commandments. I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,--the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.

The will of God is always the same in some ways, Gods will is not separate from natural selection and evolution. How could they be, when those are the rules he put on the world for all things? Gods commandments for people, (the ten) are specific to creatures that are social, like humans, and are the rules for having a cohesive group that will out compete other groups who do not follow those rules. Internal harmony is fostered by not stealing, not having religious wars, honoring these rules, honoring your elders and listening to the wisdom they can hand down to you, (accepting the culture passed down to you) not taking each others wives, not having sex outside of marriage in a time when STDs could kill you, not murdering one another within the tribe, etc. For the most part, these rules are still the same. A group does better if they follow these rules within the group, than a group of people deeply divided by internal conflict, and who does not pay heed to the wisdom of the elders of the tribe.

But because Gods laws are evolutionary laws, the specifics change, (dont eat pork or shellfish was important when diseases in those foods were common, now, they are less so and we can treat them) but now we new dangers, (street drugs, etc.) that God did not mention then, but an internal search would tell you also endanger the well being of the group. You are supposed to be having an interactive relationship with a God who will tell you in your heart, internally, how to live if you can listen to that sense. The Bible in some ways circumvents the will of God because it causes people to choose the God of the dead, (those long gone) over the living God with you now.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
This also does not change the fact that God was aware they would disobey, but allowed it to happen anyway.

And why wouldnt "he" (God is not male, God is not a gender at all, but something less divided) God does not think of things the same way we do. When he created, everything was "good." Nothing is evil in Gods eyes, but things do have consequences that YOU may find extremely unpleasant. (death, misery, illness, extinction of your tribe) However a God that set things up to compete and evolve could not be a loving God and find any of those things "bad." Within the system God set up, choice is key to selection running its course. If God knows eternity, how could he fear or worry about your death and suffering? What would those small blips mean to something that knew your essence, the spirit of you, was life itself? When you die, you are again a part of God. While you live, you are physical bodies carrying this spark of God. Nothing bad can happen to you, the spark, but things you will not find pleasant as a body can happen to you. And God does guide you towards the more pleasant life you can have, but he doesnt choose it for you. Because either way, you will be fine in the longest view.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
However, being sent out of paradise for going against God (something God knew was going to happen) does feel like a punishment to me.

But we are still here. We havent gone anywhere. Being "cast out of paradise" is metaphorical. For instance, you have two men on a beach in Hawaii, the most beautiful beach in the world. One man is engaged in life, loving it, the smell of the ocean, the sun on his skin, the breeze cools him, the water refreshes him. The other man is on his iPhone checking the stock market and turning red with rage because his stock is falling and he cant get his broker on the phone to give a sell order. Who is in paradise? Physically, they both are, but only one knows it. Only one is not "cast out" of it by his own thinking. Enlightened people, (to use a Buddhist term) are not cast out of paradise, they have found the way back in, and it is the same way Jesus told people about. Non-judgment, acceptance, love. We are not punished. There were natural consequences for the evolutionary choices our ancestors made, but there is a way even with all that to return to paradise. However you have to dedicate yourself to living and thinking a certain way, which most of us choose not to do.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I agree, sort of! I think something is good if it is beneficial to society, and it is bad if it is not beneficial to society. It gets deeper than that, but that is the basics.

And as long as your internal emotional investment into discernment doesnt lapse into moral outrage which creates an internal storm or hell for you, God agrees with you. What is good to do, is to do what is good for your group, including those things that are good for you so that you do not become a harm to your group. It isnt hard.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I have a problem with this. Why would God 'hide' his truths in the Bible? A much more logically Bible would be one that gave a set of rules to follow. Stories showing examples would be fine, as long as it specifically cites it's just a story.

They arent hidden. They are in plain view, just mixed in with stuff that is not important. Jesus himself would say, "let he who has eyes see," or "he who has ears, let him hear." Choice is important in a selective environment. Individuals have the option of learning to hear, to see, to listen to that guidance (the spirit of truth) that will tell them if what they read or hear is compatible with Gods will. But why would God only offer suggestions on how to thrive to one people? Any people who lives this way is "favored by God." Spinoza was excommunicated from Judaism for relating this tidbit to the other rabbis. Gods will is written in many ways, by many people, often in fragments diluted through time as it passes through the hands of many who do NOT hear and see, but it is always there for anyone who is so inclined. You have to be inclined. You yourself seem to have discerned much of it, as you describe your thinking, it seems rather in sync with Gods will.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
However, you say some add and some left out. I do not understand how God would allow what would become his word to be changed in any way.

I hope I have clarified my stand on this. Gods will manifest on Earth IS change, (evolution) and it was never intended to be made into a perfectly static set of elaborate rules. The ten commandments are as valid today, (except perhaps for adultery, as we can now cure or prevent most deadly STDs) as they were then, and Jesus command to love God, love each other, use him as the way, (example) and let go of condemnation for your own sake and that of others, those things are still the same, and all the major faiths have versions of those truths. We cannot blame God if we choose to not listen to the "spirit of truth" when we read or think, and instead choose to rely on words on paper that we are absolutely certain were penned by men, some of whom truly wanted to transmit their take on Gods will, and some of whom were more intent on using the idea of God for their own purpose. Gods word to YOU cannot be changed by anyone else unless you let them change it by choosing to listen to their words even when those words arise in you a sense that, "hmm this feels wrong."

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I agree with you! However, I do not think one should HAVE to sift out the common elements. As stated above, the Bible should be more clear so it is easier to accept for EVERYONE.

I hope I clarified my position on this more. It is clear to everyone, if they can listen with their "hearts" as well as with their minds, and use their minds to know that the Bible was penned by, interpreted by, large numbers of people. God never said to follow the Bible, only the commandments, the example of Jesus, and the spirit of truth.

Thank you for a thoroughly enjoyable exchange. It is a pleasure to be able to share my view on this, but again, my words are my take, and the spirit of truth is your guide, not me.

Edit to fix quotes



[edit on 27-6-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

"But we are still here. We havent gone anywhere. Being "cast out of paradise" is metaphorical. For instance, you have two men on a beach in Hawaii, the most beautiful beach in the world. One man is engaged in life, loving it, the smell of the ocean, the sun on his skin, the breeze cools him, the water refreshes him. The other man is on his iPhone checking the stock market and turning red with rage because his stock is falling and he cant get his broker on the phone to give a sell order. Who is in paradise? Physically, they both are, but only one knows it. Only one is not "cast out" of it by his own thinking. Enlightened people, (to use a Buddhist term) are not cast out of paradise, they have found the way back in, and it is the same way Jesus told people about. Non-judgment, acceptance, love. We are not punished. There were natural consequences for the evolutionary choices our ancestors made, but there is a way even with all that to return to paradise. However you have to dedicate yourself to living and thinking a certain way, which most of us choose not to do. "

In his opinion this is heresy: www.abovetopsecret.com...
And i quote: "I've dealt with people who claim there's no right or wrong before, they are . . rather disgusting, imo. Take your narcissism somewhere else. I don't need it. "

Thank you Illusionsaregrander for showing us through this remarkable example, how ignorant we are, and that there is no evil or good, there is just ignorance(read my previous posts)

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thank you for the response! You are certainly helping me understand God more. I think you may know, but just to be certain, I do not believe in any God, but I find the Bible and Christians very interesting, and would like to know more, thus the reason I asked the questions I did. I will now respond, and if you have the time, I hope you read.

I would say this is the case because God did not write the Bible. People did. Discerning the will of God was never meant to be done via a book, it was meant to be done by an internal process. It wasnt meant to be done through priests, but by direct contact with the Divine, an internal dialogue with the "Holy Spirit."

This clears many things up! Basically, it is up for the individual to determine God through the Holy Spirit within them? I can understand this. However, I have never felt a 'Holy Spirit'. I am still young, however, so I perhaps I will feel it one day. I can only hope I don't die before that day happens! It would be a shame I couldn't go to Heaven simply because I didn't live long enough to feel the Holy Spirit.

(dont eat pork or shellfish was important when diseases in those foods were common, now, they are less so and we can treat them

I can understand that these things were meant only for that time, but what about all the crimes the Bible says the punishment is death? Was this only meant for that time? I do not see how a punishment of death for some of the laws in the Bible would be needed for ANY time.

You are supposed to be having an interactive relationship with a God who will tell you in your heart, internally, how to live if you can listen to that sense.

I am not sure I need a God to determine how to live. I make my decisions based on what would not cause harm to others.

Because either way, you will be fine in the longest view.

This was a very nice paragraph and explained a lot to me! I am not sure I understand overall, however. I do not see how this would apply to those who do not believe in God.

My point of my post wasn't of EARTHLY suffering that would occur to humans, but the eternal suffering that occurs to those who don't believe. I don't see how a loving father would allow it to ever occur to any of his children.

Unless you believe that Hell isn't literal, and that when one dies who doesn't believe in God, they simply stop existing. This is not a appropriate answer, however. I shall quote myself as to why. It's the second half of this post: Here

Basically, letting your creation spend eternity in Hell or just making them stop existing after they die are both equally not a good 'punishment'.

But we are still here. We havent gone anywhere.

In this paragraph, I need to understand something. You do not believe in a literal creation but natural evolution? How interesting! In this case, I guess God would view natural death as a natural thing, and the things our ancestor did were simply natural. However, this does not answer my above paragraph dealing with things AFTER natural life.

However you have to dedicate yourself to living and thinking a certain way, which most of us choose not to do.

I believe to treat all people kindly and equally, and share what I am able to. I do not, however, believe in God. What will happen to me when I die, if I die before finding God? If I am 'punished' I do not see how that is fair or just.

God never said to follow the Bible, only the commandments, the example of Jesus, and the spirit of truth.

One last thing. What was the purpose of the rest of the Bible if this was all that was needed?

Again, thanks so much for taking out the time to answering my questions! It is a joy to discuss this with you.

Kind regards

reply to post by xspinx


Language is a tricky, tool, no matter how useful. Because I am a philosopher, and I love the ancients, I often have to really research a word, see how it was used, to discern if it had ONE or multiple meanings attached to it. I am not myself fluent in many languages, so I often read multiple translations and the etymology to get at the essence of the meaning of a word in context.

English is not very nuanced compared to some languages. We use the word "judgment" (court decisions, discernment, moral outrage, etc.) in many ways, rather than having separate words for each meaning. We do have "better" or "worse" choices, so in one sense, "judgment" is not an error or sin, but we dont have to attach emotional anguish or condemnation to those "better" or "worse" decisions and judge them in the other sense as well. We just dont have a way of easily making it clear what "judgment" we are speaking of, and this leads to conflicts and seemingly contradictory statements.

We do need to navigate the physical world, and keep ourselves out of harms way, and this does necessitate one sort of judgment. But the other sort, where we whip ourselves and others mercilessly emotionally, is not necessary. It serves no purpose other than to create a "hell" for us of our own making. You can learn from bad discernment without flogging yourself (or flogging others in your own mind) endlessly for it.

I look forward to reading your posts.

Cheers!

What if Adam and Eve didn't sin? You'd have no story to control people with. Scare tactics 101.

A & E were apparently doomed from the start. God created two apparent faulty humans, knowing they will disobey and cause people to suffer and spend eternity in hell. God allows a magical tree to exist that will cause people to suffer and spend eternity in hell when eaten from. God allows a talking snake to exist and tempt these faulty humans into eating from the magical tree. It's a good thing I don't believe in this fairy tale, otherwise I'd have to pretend that it all makes sense.

Having to guess whether certain parts of the bible are literal or symbolic doesn't help the bible's already bad reputation. People interpret the bible based on their own desires. If the 10 Commandments were the only laws we followed, rape would be legal. You don't need the 10 Commandments or the bible in order to be a good person or live a happy life.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

Adam and Eve is an ingenious metaphor for the evolution of man. Man at one time was an animal with the ignorance of an animal. In the animal world there is no good or evil, only survival. This is because there is no self awareness, or the awareness of one’s actions and how those actions affect others.

So think of the Garden of Eden as the world of animals. A world without good or evil, but at some point in our evolution man became smarter, self aware and gained knowledge. It is at this point man was kicked out of the animal world (Garden of Eden) or in other words the world of instinct and ignorance.

We see this in this great story that when they were kicked out they became ashamed of their nakedness, and so their first action was to put cloths on. While they were in the Garden of Eden they could not do good or evil, but once they were kicked out with their new found knowledge and self awareness they now had the ability for good or evil acts. Or in other words finally became man....

I thought the question was "What if Adam and Eve Didn't sin?"
Not...is the bible and its stories real, nor, what is the lessons to be learned.

I'd like to hear what people would think this world would be like if Adam and Eve had obeyed their creator?

Can you imagine if they ate of the tree of life?
Can you imagine them still being alive today?
Can you imagine no corrupt governments, just Gods loving theocracry?
Could you imagine Satan not being allowed to rule this world?
Could you imagine Peace?
Happyness?
Contentment?
Purpose?

Can you imagine growing to know the Creator of everything, and understanding His ways, being His friend, exploring every facet of our universe without imperfect eyes

Or can you only imagine trying to say Adam and Eve was just a story to keep the masses under control?

Try imagining paradise.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
However, I have never felt a 'Holy Spirit'. I am still young, however, so I perhaps I will feel it one day. I can only hope I don't die before that day happens! It would be a shame I couldn't go to Heaven simply because I didn't live long enough to feel the Holy Spirit.

I bet you have felt the holy spirit, or the spirit if truth, many times. Have you never been about to do something and suddenly been seized with the "Knowing" (to differentiate from conscious thought) that you better not? Or have you never heard someone say something, and you couldnt quite put your finger on it, but you just knew that even though they were not consciously lying, that what they were saying was just wrong? We call it intuition, our conscience, by many names. But it is the spirit of truth. You dont have to worry about not hearing a human voice in your head saying "hey there, I am the holy spirit." You might have to worry if you DO, those kinds of voices tend to indicate mental illness.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I can understand that these things were meant only for that time, but what about all the crimes the Bible says the punishment is death? Was this only meant for that time? I do not see how a punishment of death for some of the laws in the Bible would be needed for ANY time.

Think of the word "punishment" as "natural outcome" (Buddhism and Hinduism have "karma" as their word, which also has devolved in meaning to mean punishment or reward. ) It just means, "if you do this, this will happen." Not that you are being morally judged and damned. If you ate pork in those times, you could literally die a horrible death. If you slept around, you could go mad and die of syphilis or some other thing. These punishments are the natural outcome of certain choices in that time frame. Likewise, today, walking off the top of a tall building is a "sin" (error) with a likely death penalty. God was telling you how to live in this world (with the natural laws) and survive in the game of natural selection, both individually, and as a group. The punishment of death was literal, you could die if you did not follow these rules, as a natural consequence. If you are secular, you dont think it unnecessarily cruel that jumping off a cliff will likely in your death, do you? You accept the law of gravity, and refrain from doing so.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I am not sure I need a God to determine how to live. I make my decisions based on what would not cause harm to others.

Its because you are using what they call the "spirit of truth" already. You just arent giving it a special name. At the point in the evolution of human society "prophets" were writing these things down, human understanding was more primitive. The prophets used the language and concepts of their time to make things understandable to the mass of people. It is no different today, where our "prophets' (scientists, philosophers, other wise people) use the language and concepts of our time to explain "truths" to us in ways that in the future may seem equally archaic.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I am not sure I understand overall, however. I do not see how this would apply to those who do not believe in God.

Belief in "what is" is not a pre-existing condition for being in "what is." Paul came along after Jesus' death, and made belief a big deal. But Paul was a con man, (in my opinion and that of some others) he had long been trying to make a name for himself, and he saw an opportunity to move up in the world from petty official of the government to cult leader who was adored. He took some of what Jesus said, and added lots that suited him, and made others dependent upon him and the church, which Jesus himself never founded nor advocated. Many followed his lead afterwards, and build the monstrosity we call religion on something that was, at heart, a very good message about how to live in the world in harmony with that world and one another. "God" is not separable from "nature" which is the mistake both the religious and secular make. The secular often miss what a brilliant "how to play the game of natural selection and win" text many of the ancient works were, and the religious focus overly on the concept of a disembodied human with human thoughts and behaviors. God isnt that. "God" is the name for "All that is" (which is why there is only ONE god, not many) and as such is all the things, (all powerful, etc) that are attributed to "him" (bearing in mind god is not gendered) His name is often translated as "I AM." All that is.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
My point of my post wasn't of EARTHLY suffering that would occur to humans, but the eternal suffering that occurs to those who don't believe. I don't see how a loving father would allow it to ever occur to any of his children.

The idea of hell has been elaborated on to an extreme. Mostly because you can really control the actions of another if you make them fear an eternal punishment only you and other officials can save them from. Consider;

en.wikipedia.org...

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
Basically, letting your creation spend eternity in Hell or just making them stop existing after they die are both equally not a good 'punishment'.

It is my belief, that when we all die, we are all faced with the same end, no matter what we believed about God, or what we called God. If ones mind is clear of guilt and shame and the process of our spark returning to God is easy, and joyful, and pleasant. If our minds are full of anguish, and misery, and shame for our actions, the process of our spark returning to God requires resolution of those feelings, before you can enter the "heaven" of reunion with God. But it is YOUR mind and YOUR feelings about your actions that make that path long or short, easy or difficult. Just like in life. A person who has lived their life in a way that is in accordance with the spirit of truth within them, their conscience, or intuition, and has led a life of mental ease because of this, will not have to sort out much conflict to return to union with God. Someone who has ignored their conscience all their lives and lived in disharmony with it, will have the same mindset when dying and will have to sort that through before union with God. In either case, reunion with God is possible, and God is not the one who is judging you. You are.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
In this paragraph, I need to understand something. You do not believe in a literal creation but natural evolution? How interesting! In this case, I guess God would view natural death as a natural thing, and the things our ancestor did were simply natural. However, this does not answer my above paragraph dealing with things AFTER natural life.

What is a big bang, (or however it may have happened) if not Creation? And if you do not divide God from Nature, but recognize them both by the same title, "All that is" or "I AM" where is the conflict? Science argues with a version of spirituality that is a mistake, so of course they have conflict. That religion is in conflict with the original message too, because it is designed to serve individual people, not all beings, as Gods true message is.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
What will happen to me when I die, if I die before finding God? If I am 'punished' I do not see how that is fair or just.

The only way you will be punished for not believing in God is if you are judging yourself and worrying about it. God does not need belief. God IS, and you worship God by being, not believing. The life you lead is the only praise God needs, and not for the sake of some disembodied person, but honor "All that is" with your life. Thinking a certain way will make your life better and more pleasant for you, in life and in death. You will not lay there dying in shame and guilt if you live in a way that is consistent with your highest self, that spirit of truth. Dont let others tell you what that should be. You will be your own judge, you will set your own punishment, before reuniting with God, so be true to your highest self always. This is not to say "do whatever you want" it is more subtle and important than mere hedonism. It is learning to hear the subtle truth within you and honoring that always, being willing to suffer any consequence that may arise from your unwavering loyalty to this guide.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
One last thing. What was the purpose of the rest of the Bible if this was all that was needed?

Some of it was to convince those who did not have the natural willingness to discern for themselves begin to live in ways that would still benefit themselves and their group, even if you do not have an intimate relationship with that internal guide, going through the motions is still better for you and society than running rampant. Other parts are just flat out self interest on the part of those who placed themselves in the role of spiritual leader and official of God who were pursuing material things as an end in itself.

interesting





[edit on 27-6-2010 by Zeta Reticulan]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thanks for replying to my post again! I appreciate it.

I don't want to drag on the conversation anymore than I have, so I will take with what you've provided to me and further my understanding of God and the Bible. Perhaps we will talk in another thread, and I'll learn something new again!

Kind regards

[edit on 27-6-2010 by Hitotsumami]

reply to post by taccj9903


Don't buy the Bible story of Adam and Eve to be lit. true, soooooo

What would have happened if they didnt sin?

We, as in 'people of this time and age', would still be an unaware species living like primitive animals in nature.

For performing 'sin' is to regonise and embrace your own individual Darkness. Becoming aware of this darkness, seeing the difference between 'good' and 'evíl', light & dark, is only possible when (y)our consiouness expands

'We' would never have been as we are today. And YES I believe that 'to sin' was (is) the intention of the ALL Creator (Cosmic Super Consiouness) to let us learn an important lesson on 'Soul level'.

Namaste!

reply to post by Zeta Reticulan


You should search info about Kundalini.

reply to post by taccj9903


as far as an answer to your 'what if' - i agree with g146541. i don't like apples all that much, but i do firmly believe we'd be bored out of our gourds.

or even worse, not even be aware of our gourds.



but your thread reminded me of something i wrote, sometime in the past couple of years, and so i'm pasting it here as food for thought (not apples!).

-----------------------------------

Now, this is an approach to the situation in the Garden of Eden that takes ONLY into consideration that which the bible says, in Genesis – excluding ALL preconceived ideas, theology, traditional interpretations, and even any other scriptures outside of the few chapters in Genesis which contain the story of the four star-players in the opening act of the WORD (except for a comparison of word meaning for the sole purpose of accurate context in the original ancient Hebrew)..

First, in Genesis 2:16-17, we have GOD telling Adam not to eat of that certain tree because the consequence of doing so is certain death. Now, this is before GOD even thought of making Eve – right before, but still before. And so GOD is telling Adam something that pertains to Adam.

And the Lord God gave the man orders, saying,
You may freely take of the fruit of every tree of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.

In the next verse, 18, GOD decides Adam needs a help-mate and so decides to make one and the following verses tell of GOD making his female companion. The chapter ends after declaring the couple have no shame in their nakedness. NO mention, whatsoever, is made concerning GOD giving Eve the same orders as he did Adam. Nor does it say or even imply that GOD told Adam to relay the information to her.

Now, on to chapter 3. Immediately the serpent enters the scene – and the word translated from the Hebrew as serpent means exactly that – simply a snake; named after the hissing sound it makes.

It describes the serpent as being the most subtil of all creatures – a word which is defined as: crafty, cunning, and/or prudent; and the primitive root word it comes from means: to be (or make) bare; to be cunning, to beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent, deal subtilly.

This word, arum, translated as ‘subtil’ in Genesis 3, is found 10 other times in the entire Old Testament; it is translated as prudent 8 times and as crafty 2 times.

thefreedictionary.com defines 'prudent' as:

1. Wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgment or common sense.
2. Careful in regard to one's own interests; provident.
3. Careful about one's conduct; circumspect.

The Bible in Basic English says:

Now the snake was wiser than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Back to the chain of events…

The serpent asks Eve if GOD really said that that she was not to take from the tree in the middle of the garden and Eve replies:

We may take of the fruit of the trees in the garden: But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, If you take of it or put your hands on it, death will come to you.

NOW – when did GOD say, to either Adam OR Eve, that they were not to even TOUCH the fruit? We have no record of GOD saying anything at all about the fruit to Eve; and to Adam GOD only said NOT TO EAT.

Where did Eve get this idea?

If we only go on what we are told, in the storyline and not between the lines (as most theologians are wont to do), there is only one viable answer!

ADAM!

If Adam told Eve these things, then he lied, according to what we are given in regard to what GOD told Adam.

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so, what No King but Jesus posted was relevant but probably not in the way intended!

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.-1Tim2.4

Adam wasn't deceived - but Eve was.
Who deceived Eve??
Not the serpent.
Her husband.

Your Question was...

My question is what would have happened if Adam and Eve didn't sin. Would we have a bunch of naked vegetarians running around today? What about the fact that eventually the earth would have run out of room for all those people. Let's face it, if people reproduced and no one ever died wouldn't there eventually be an over population problem? If people were without sin and naked would they only live in warm climates, or was the entire earth meant to be warm before sin entered the picture. If people lived forever on earth wouldn't they eventually see and do everything there is to do and get bored with it?

(I am also, NOT a church goer.)

I can give you an answer involving Logic processes regarding DNA, but before I can, some very important issues need to be cleared up first, so you can understand the implications...

It is impossible to understand the implications without understanding why God reportedly put the tree in the Garden in the first place, knowing it would tempt MAN through A'DAM.

There were 3 entirely different types of "Trees".

a. Trees of the Ground or Earth.
b. The "Tree of LIFE" Not of the Ground
c. The "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".

But my point being....... Why tempt MAN, Not A'DAM in the First Place ???

What does the Word "Tree" mean as it has more than One meaning !


P.S.

Note; Why am I ranting on about the Difference between A'DAM and MAN ???

Well J.C. was reported to have said...Quote;

I Am The "Son of God" and The "Son of MAN"...

J.C. being The Son of A'DAM doesn't sound quite right does it ???

I wonder why ???

He never said He was the Son of A'DAM or EVE or for Mary for that matter.

The writings Claim; J.C. was the result of a Virgin birth so how could He be the Son of Man if He did Not have an Earthly Father ???

So this distinction can Not be ignored, in order to understand the O.T. esp. The Genesis. Either you accept the whole bible or reject it otherwise the content becomes corrupted.

Is it true that "A'Dam" and "MAN" are one and the same as human Scribes make out in the Genesis ???

So to answer your Questions; we first need to understand what We really are, in other words we were reported, to consist of three Parts ???

a. The "Flesh".
b. The "Soul".
c. And "Spirit".

So what was the Sin really about ???

Do we take it literally or Metaphorically ???

[edit on 27-6-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by queenannie38
reply to post by taccj9903

 

Now the snake was wiser than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

“Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

reply to post by xspinx

“Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Valid Point...

From "The Gospel of Thomas"... Quote for others...

39. Jesus said,

“The Pharisees and the Scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed to enter
those who wish to.

You, however, be as wise as serpents
and as innocent as doves.”