What If Adam and Eve Didn't Sin?

reply to post by Gakus


If you are unable to answer just admit to it. You can say, I have no idea I just believe what I believe.


I am not trolling, I started this thread about the question of Adam and Eve and sin, it turned into a discussion about hell. I am more than happy to debate with you about hell, if you are unwilling or unable that is fine but don't think I am being a troll, because honestly I have no idea what that means.

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by Gakus

 

If you are unable to answer just admit to it. You can say, I have no idea I just believe what I believe.


I am not trolling, I started this thread about the question of Adam and Eve and sin, it turned into a discussion about hell. I am more than happy to debate with you about hell, if you are unwilling or unable that is fine but don't think I am being a troll, because honestly I have no idea what that means.

A post IS only just a post. It doesn't matter IF the post IS about a "side" OR "on" Topic.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

www.remnantofgod.org...


ok i couldn't find the exact url i was looking at before, but this has some interesting interpretation of verses about hell.

I scanned through this! I read a lot of the passages provided, and the interpretation seem pretty fair, in my opinion! It DOES make more sense for a person to 'stop existing' rather than spend eternity in Hell.

However, I have some problems with this! I hope you hear me out!

1. God's meaning about Hell and 'eternal punishment' has been quite twisted over the years! Most people I know today see Hell as burning in fire forever. Why would God allow his word to be misinterpreted? Would he not make sure it is clear so no controversy is caused?

2. This does not QUITE answer the original fundamental question. Put yourself in God's shoes. If you knew billions of your creations would die, would you create any of it at all? I would not.

I can theoretically create better outcomes than what God has provided in the Bible, and if I can think of them, and God knows everything, he obviously thought of them too!

An example would be simply creating only the humans that would end up in Heaven, since he already knows which will and will not be. God is All Powerful, so he should be able to do this!

Thanks again for your post!

Kind regards

well ill do my best to answer these from my point of view:

1. Somehow I think this plays into the whole free will idea. If it was so clear to everyone, what would be the entire process be then? It would greatly influence what we did in life but not in the genuine sense. God is love- and with love comes trust, we must trust in what he says and not how other men interpret it.
Instead of wondering why God would let it be interpreted wrong, maybe the worthiness of belonging in heaven comes with being true to ourselves.
When I was a child, about 11 years old, I bought a cd by the band Mr. Bungle. If you have ever heard this band, you would know that it is circus kind of music with zany sound effects and ridiculous lyrics. I would laugh and chime to my friends how crazy it was. Flash forward ten years later. I listened to it again, and thought, wow this stuff is brilliant. The music sounded way different because my intelligence and awareness had changed.

I kind of see it like that. You can only come through god through your own experiences and if you dont see it for what it is now, then you must grow as a person before things in the bible will start to make sense. All the while remaining true to yourself.


2. This is not a fair question for me, because I could never understand God in all his complexity, or eternal simplicity. I will entertain it, since you have been fair about all this as well: Since God is outside of time, and can see past,present, future, there is no choice but for him to always know outcomes and regardless what else is there for a god to do, but create, knowing that from love, love returns. I think that is beautiful. Shameful that some people would not see it that way. So because some people dont want to be a part of God, this alone is a reason not to create? Seems empty ended thinking of you ask me.

reply to post by Hitotsumami


I understand where you are coming from, you have been stating your case all along why did god create humans in the first place if he knew some would end up in hell.

For what it's worth, since I don't believe in this stuff anyway, I once heard a sermon that the reason why god didn't put an end to things when Adam and Eve first sinned had to do with god's sovereign authority to rule mankind. You see god could have just started over or just have made man to be absolute obedient but that would have left the question to all the angels whether god had the right to rule us to begin with.

Basically do we need god to rule us or can we do it ourselves. I think the whole creation of hell by man just clouds the issue.



[edit on 27-6-2010 by taccj9903]

I have a garden. I plant seeds in it. Some of the seeds will die, many will live. The ones that live will produce fruits and vegetables. Some of the fruits and vegetables will be destroyed by parasitic elements, such as birds or fungus. Some will make it to the table. Your question is why plant at all? Isn't it obvious?

"My question is what would have happened if Adam and Eve didn't sin. Would we have a bunch of naked vegetarians running around today?"

The sin was a problem for Adam and Eve. Adam lied to Eve, and she saw that he had lied. Eve did not know God, nor the guidance from God. She only had guidance from Adam. Since he lied to her, she did not believe him. She believed the serpent, who was not lying. The serpent was likely touching the fruit as it told her that the fruit would not hurt her. However, that being said, the problem would have ended with Adam and Eve had they not reproduced. The fact that many more have suffered and died is on the heads of Adam and Eve, not God.

[edit on 6/27/2010 by Jim Scott]

reply to post by Jim Scott


Perhaps god should have told them not to reproduce after they sinned...

Anyway I can appreciate the argument you make. The analogy I can think of is, I'm a parent and I father 5 children, 3 turn out to be good boys and girls and are obedient, the other 2 are the black sheep of the family. The two black sheep end up causing a lot of pain and suffering for other people and eventually have to be burned to death for their sins, however before that happens they go on to reproduce and create more good and bad children and the bad traits keep getting passed on from generation to generation.

The question that was raised was if I know beforehand what will happen do I go ahead and have kids?

Originally posted by taccj9903

Originally posted by DCDAVECLARKE
Did Adam have an navel? i only say this because that would mean he had a mother right? so who was the mother an who was the father? and were they married? if not Adam was illegitimate! so it looks like Adam wasn't the first sinner lol

That is a great question, I never thought of that before.

I only say it because that great Artist Michelangelo painted Adam with a belly button! he was a genius so i guess he new what he was doing..

I recommend "Ishmael" and other books by Daniel Quinn. You can find them on Scribd.

Originally posted by taccj9903
I'm not a believer in bible stories anymore, but I used to be a Christian so I still wonder about a lot of things I was taught about the bible and creation. I guess one of the many questions I had that was never answered had to do with the story in Genesis.

We read that God created Adam and Eve perfect without sin, they sinned and we are what we are today, no need to go into that story.

My question is what would have happened if Adam and Eve didn't sin. Would we have a bunch of naked vegetarians running around today? What about the fact that eventually the earth would have run out of room for all those people. Let's face it, if people reproduced and no one ever died wouldn't there eventually be an over population problem? If people were without sin and naked would they only live in warm climates, or was the entire earth meant to be warm before sin entered the picture. If people lived forever on earth wouldn't they eventually see and do everything there is to do and get bored with it?

First of all, Adam and Eve did not know they were naked. They realized their nakedness after they ate the apple. Secondly, they started reproducing after they were banished from the garden of eden. Thirdly, you sound like a dude i meet once, and he asked me: We got so many satellites and telescopes, why can't we find god? behind what white cloud is he and his angels with harps are hiding? The garden of eden is not on earth, nor on other planets, it might be in other dimension ( we currently exist in the 3rd dimension). And they did not sin. By eating the apple from the tree of knowledge and life, they became aware of their nakedness, so you might say that they become conscious. They became conscious of themselves and of life, so they started experiencing that life. We have, what is called the free will. No choice is bad or good, the fight between evil and good is just something very dumb and made by humans. The only "evil" thing is the ignorance. "Hell" is the place for ignorant people, it's not a place of eternal torture etc. because the ignorant people living there do not miss "heaven" because they do not know it exists.
ignorant=UNAWARE because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge
Did you even read the bible? or at least the genesis?

I saw someone on this thread that said he/she does not believe in the bible. Your not believing in what? in genesis? You don't need to believe in it. the bible or the ten commandments must be taken as guidelines, they show us how we all can have a decent life, how to we can coexist regardless of sex, religion, race. But these are the things you don't believe in? And even if you read the bible, i am sure you did not understand anything. And please stop saying identifying yourself as catholic, orthodox, muslim etc. because it reveals how ignorant you are. you can't have your own opinion, you just embrace what others believe in because they have the numbers. and as long as there are many people believing in it, than it must be true no? i will say that they are all ignorant, with blind faith in an idea. If we all share the same idea, how do you expect the humankind to progress spiritually, technologically etc?
Truth is a pathless land.
Man cannot come to it through any organization,
through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual,
nor through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique.
He has to find it through the mirror of relationship,
through the understanding of the contents of his own mind,
through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.
Man has built in himself images as a fence of security - religious, political, personal.
These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs.
The burden of these images dominates man's thinking,
his relationships and his daily life.
These images are the causes of our problems
for they divide man from man.
His perception of life is shaped by the concepts already established in his mind.
The content of his consciousness is his entire existence.
This content is common to all humanity.
The individuality is the name, the form and superficial culture he acquires
from tradition and environment.
The uniqueness of man does not lie in the superficial
but in complete freedom from the content of his consciousness,
which is common to all mankind.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by xspinx]

The question probably should be:

What if Adam and Eve were real?

How is it the God creates a flawed species that sins and He then decides to punish the species indefinitely for doing what is in the species nature which he created.

A bad workman always blames his tools , eh?

Did you read my post? i think it explains a lot.

@ The Endtime Warrior

Thank you for the response! I will try my best to reply!

1. If the rules were laid out clearly, there would be a lot less controversy and more would probably come to God. ALSO, even if it was clearer, that shouldn't effect free will.

we must trust in what he says and not how other men interpret it.

This is my point. In my opinion, God should make the Bible clear and understandable so no man has to depend on another man to interpret it.

I kind of see it like that. You can only come through god through your own experiences and if you dont see it for what it is now, then you must grow as a person before things in the bible will start to make sense. All the while remaining true to yourself.

Hmm, you make a good point! I am afraid I am quite young, so I can't say I've grown much as a person yet! Perhaps with time I will understand it better!

I guess I can only hope I don't die before then!


2. About the second point...

This is not a fair question for me, because I could never understand God in all his complexity, or eternal simplicity.

I have heard this used before against my point. It is quite an interesting one! I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

It does not matter how complex or simple a solution to a problem is. Let's refer to my example again. I provided in my previous post a WORKING solution, given God is all powerful. It doesn't matter how complex or simple God is, this does not affect the validity of my working solution.

So because some people dont want to be a part of God, this alone is a reason not to create? Seems empty ended thinking of you ask me.

Ah, I think you do not see my point here! It is not that same people "DON'T WANT" to be part of God, it's that some people "DON'T SEE WHY" they should be part of God. I am in that position. I do have evidence to support a God is real, thus I do not believe. It's nothing to do with wanting to or not, at least for myself.

I do have further reasons, based on what I know about the Bible, where even if I knew God was real I would not want to worship him, but I will not talk about that, since it's a bit too far off topic, haha!

Again, I hope I didn't misinterpret your post! Thanks again for responding to me.

King regards

reply to post by taccj9903


Hmm, interesting!

I will try to best understand your post.

You see god could have just started over or just have made man to be absolute obedient but that would have left the question to all the angels whether god had the right to rule us to begin with.

The angles certainly would have that question! In my own opinion, it shows me that God was not suitable to rule it. If you wish to ask me further questions, I will try my best to explain my point further!

reply to post by Jim Scott


You make an interesting point!

I have a garden. I plant seeds in it. Some of the seeds will die, many will live. The ones that live will produce fruits and vegetables. Some of the fruits and vegetables will be destroyed by parasitic elements, such as birds or fungus. Some will make it to the table. Your question is why plant at all? Isn't it obvious?

You see, I think you make a fundamental mistake, in my opinion. The gardener is perfectly aware some of his plants will not make it, yet he makes them anyway. I can perfectly understand this.

I do not think this example can be used in place of God, because God has certain characteristics that a gardener does not!

1. God is all powerful and all knowing. He would be aware of the seeds he placed in the ground that would die, and the ones that would produce. He could choose to not put that seed in the ground at all, and only plant the ones that would certainly produce.

2. Some plants would die. That was what you said. This is not the same when applied to humans and the Bible. If a human were to die, he would A) Spend an eternity in everlasting fire (what most Christians I know think) B) Die.

If God is real, he would surely want a purpose for all his creations. This is why I don't see the B) option as any better than the A) option. It would appear to be completely pointless to 'plant the seed' with either option, however.

I hope I understood your post and didn't make any mistakes! I will try to further explain myself if possible!

Thanks so much for replying.

Kind regards

reply to post by Hitotsumami


The Edict of Milan - 313 AD

It was in that year that Christianity, which had already been slowly growing for three hundred years, would gain a firm, permanent foothold. In 313 the Edict of Milan was issued. In this edict, emperors Constantine and Licinius ordered that the Roman Empire would now be tolerant of religion, including Christianity. Many saw this basically as an imperial backing of the Christian church.

From that year on, Constantine gathered all scriptures, gospels and all christian related texts and some of the texts were banned, burned and some were "accepted" and even today you can read them. So, he might have excluded the most interesting parts of the bible, like reincarnation, because in those days, people were ignorant, and ideas like reincarnation were so strange like the aliens and other life forms on planets is strange for us today.

reply to post by xspinx


Council of Nicaea

The council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ as is sometimes claimed but it did settle to some degree the debate within the early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ along with the idea of Christ as a messenger from the one God ("The Father") had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[5] The council affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father. Contrary to the view popularised by Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code, there is no evidence to suggest that the Biblical canon, the list of books decided to be authorative as scripture, was even discussed at the Council of Nicaea, let alone established or edited.

reply to post by xspinx


Thank you for the response!

Was your post a possible explanation as to why the Bible, in my own opinion, feels inadequate?

Also, dusty1 who posted below you seems to have refuted your post. Your post doesn't help my situation any, but you weren't trying to do that anyway, haha.

Still, thanks so much for the information!

Kind regards

reply to post by dusty1


Please don't give me any quotes related to Dan Brown's books.
We are talking about the year 313 A.D. In that period of time christians were burned, ate by lions etc. do you even think that we can surely know what happened at that council? do you know how many texts were considered heretic and burned every day?
Let me compare that period of time with our modern time.
Do you know EVERYTHING that leaders discuss at the G-20 summit? No, you don't. You don't know what they discuss in our modern times, and you expect me to believe you that you know what happened in 313 A.D.?

Well, I am not Christian either but was raised baptist until I turned 11 and discovered the interwebs.

I s'pose if Adam and Eve never sinned the Bible wouldn't exist in the first place. There would be no need to teach God's word as humanity would have remained in touch with their creator. How could he create humans without knowing they would turn against him if he did not in fact desire these events to pass? That would mean he planned for us to live in a world of sin when he hates sin itself.

I guess now I'm getting into the contradictory nature of the scripture and straying away from the topic so let me digress from my digression. I expect earth would be a Utopia due to our ignorance and servitude. It is our knowledge that destroys us because we are often not capable of responsibly utilizing the technology at hand. I guess it is a trade of either bliss or progress and we chose progress.

If I was Adam, I'd choose progress too.