What If Adam and Eve Didn't Sin?

Originally posted by taccj9903

My question is what would have happened if Adam and Eve didn't sin.

The bible would be a much shorter book.

Really. It's like asking why Alice had to fall down the rabbit hole. It's a plot device to move the story forward. No sin, no story.

Since Adam and Eve were created perfect and IF they had not sinned, they would still be here.
So you could thank them yourself, in person, for keeping thier integrity.

Maybe Satan would have gotten over himself, and went back to serving God like a good angel and he woulda stopped tempting the silly meatbags.

If we continued to reproduce after filling the Earth...we would spread out...just like were learning to do now, or even in some more exicting fantastic spiritual way.

We would have grown to an understanding of our creators universe that we can't even begin to imagine being able to imagine imagining it!!!! Yeah..I said that!

We would be enjoying and using this world, and probably others in such wonderful ways, beneficial to us and them.
No WARS
No Food shortages
No Disease
No imperfections
No Oil spills
No corrupt governments
No evil corporations

Q is did A & E know of Sin?

To sin is to break the law. God's laws. It doesn't have anything to do with sexuality etc.

I tend to think they did not know the law.

God may have said, do this and don't do that but was what they did against the law?

We won't ever really know.

reply to post by Pauligirl


I think asking questions like this helps us to better understand whether or not the story is really true. I know what I believe about it, just curious what those who still believe think.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
Q is did A & E know of Sin?

To sin is to break the law. God's laws. It doesn't have anything to do with sexuality etc.

I tend to think they did not know the law.

God may have said, do this and don't do that but was what they did against the law?

We won't ever really know.

God's law didn't exist when A&E were in the garden, he only gave them the one commandment not to eat from the tree of knowledge or else they would die.

Gen 2: 15-17 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

reply to post by taccj9903


ok then, they had one law and broke it.

so they sinned. With regard to your Q, I tend to think it is a bit like if there is a pile of lollies on the table and a child is told not to eat them, well, the first thing they will do is.... eat.

Originally posted by taccj9903
reply to post by gordonwest

 

You are right, the bible also tells us that Adam was helping God name all the animals, if you read the bible like a timeline you might be led to believe that all this happened in one day. I hardly think if it were true that naming of all the animals on the planet would have been a one day event.

bibleresources.bible.com...

Was God & Adam was both in Heaven _when_ Adam named the creatures? I didn't think 'time and space' would be 'a part OF' Heaven.

*On a side-note:* Quote: The Family of Cain

16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael, and Mehujael begot Methushael, and Methushael begot Lamech.

*There are "different versions" of the bible...*

When Cain went out from "Heaven-the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch.

@ -> My-Question-IS: "How Did" Cain 'knew his wife', when... Quote:

And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.”

There ARE parts of the bible is missing, since 'a wife magicial appeared for Cain.'

Originally posted by Thurisaz
reply to post by taccj9903

 

ok then, they had one law and broke it.

so they sinned. With regard to your Q, I tend to think it is a bit like if there is a pile of lollies on the table and a child is told not to eat them, well, the first thing they will do is.... eat.

Not going to argue with that.

reply to post by gordonwest


Great questions as well, I could name several more maybe I should have just made a post about all the questions I have with the book of Genesis.

reply to post by taccj9903


Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning?-Is41.4

Once I was alive apart from law-Rom7.9

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by taccj9903

 

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning?-Is41.4

Once I was alive apart from law-Rom7.9

Can you please elaborate on your comment, not sure what you mean.

reply to post by taccj9903


Why did God according to Genesis, put the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden for?

It certainly wasn't for a test, as The Creator of the Primates knew All, and Created All.
This includes Past and Future, which are in fact known as The “Present”.

Present ??? (Spelling)

a. Moment (in time)
b. Gift.

“MAN” and “WO-MAN”... (Married) One Form….. This Body is The Soul.

A'DAM & EVE........ (Cleave to each other) These Bodies are the Primate Species... Homo sapiens.

God Created MAN, Not A'DAM, in Their own Image.

“Their”... Referring to God..

a. The Word.
b. The LIFE of God which is The LIGHT of MAN Not A'DAM.

So Why did God according to Genesis, put the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden for ???

There is a good Reason why They (God) would have done this…

If Not it would Not have been done ???

But this knowledge was taken by the "Pharisees" and "Scribes".

Why ???

From “The Gospel of Thomas”… Quote;

39. Jesus said,

“The Pharisees and the Scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and hidden them.

They themselves have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed to enter
those who wish to.”

The Roman collection of Greek and Hebrew writings known as the bible today, was written by “Scribes” ???

[edit on 27-6-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by Thurisaz
reply to post by taccj9903

 

ok then, they had one law and broke it.

so they sinned. With regard to your Q, I tend to think it is a bit like if there is a pile of lollies on the table and a child is told not to eat them, well, the first thing they will do is.... eat.

yes and people still have children knowing that they will screw up.......
to me they were instructed to live and obey god and through this they would be able to discover all the secrets of the universe through god
however the serpent encouraged eve to discover things for herself, and that god was lying to them, that god was keeping secrets from them

so essentially thats what we have today, is people blaming god for the worlds problems, blaspheming him in music and tv, and instead we champion science as the end all be all for every possible answer we could ever wanna know
and yes, one day science will let us live forever and be like gods....
interesting huh?

yes and people still have children knowing that they will screw up.......

Hmm, interesting!

This is quite a thought provoking statement, at least for myself!

You are right that people have children knowing that their children will make mistakes. HOWEVER, people do not have children knowing that many, many, thousands, upon thousands of their children will spend an eternity in a never ending Hell.

If I was given the choice to have a child, and I knew that child would spend forever in Hell, I would rather not have the child at all.

Just my own opinion, and I respect yours!

Kind regards

[edit on 27-6-2010 by Hitotsumami]

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

Hmm! Your first point is God did not actually punish us. I have to disagree here. God knew before he created Adam and Eve of the things they would do, but he allowed it to occur. It sounds to me that the 'punishment' was in plan before he even created them.

Well, key to this idea is the original meaning of the word "sin." Which meant to "miss the mark" or to err. It has become loaded with other connotations, moral ones, but that doesnt mean it was intended that way.

As I see it, God when giving Adam and Eve what many feel was their "punishment," is simply reading off a list of natural outcomes of the new form of thinking they had infected themselves with.

Pain in childbirth? Human brains evolved so quickly the pelvic bones have not evolved to easily and readily accompany a babys head. Some speculate that diet may have been the thing that caused this rapid increase in brain size, some speculate the forbidden fruit was meat, and the protein (and the hunting) is what fueled the increase in brain size. I entertain this notion, but accept that that is probably lost in time.

Toiling in the Earth for food? Because we can anticipate hunger and strive to prevent it.

Etc. God actually to me sounds a little sad for Adam and Eve, and he clothes them so that they will not suffer the new shame they feel at their nakedness.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I think the fact that we are able to think is a wonderful thing! Without it we could not have this conversation in the first place.

I dont think thinking is bad at all, I think judging things "good/bad" "good/evil" is what causes us distress. Buddhism, for instance, also advocates letting go of "want/dont want" in the form of "desire" to attain a state of mental ease and well being known as enlightenment.

I personally dont think the Bible can be read as a literal truth, but I think there are clues to "truths" in there. I personally feel that all human mythologies have a common origin, which is over 30,000 years old. I believe this because you can see similarities, (flood stories, an original man and woman) in most of them, though other things have been added in, and others left out. Genesis, the part where God is creating the Earth, is remarkably similar to the Hymn of Creation in the Rig Veda, if you read them side by side.

And while I feel that taking ONE current version literally is a mistake, I think that when you sift out the common elements, you begin to get an idea what the original point of the whole story was, which seems to me about how to live here on this Earth in harmony with it, and with internal harmony as well, so that it would be joyful, rather than stressful and sad.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I do not think it is wise to be like a child in the real world. I believe one should always question and always be skeptic. Judging people is a GOOD thing, because we use judging to determine if a situation or a person is good to be around or not.

I think it is a different form of judgment than just the basic "danger" kind of judgment. Like a cliff, you dont want to walk right off it, but you dont have to think a cliff is evil or bad either, and hate it. Recognizing things for what they are can happen without judging them. You can be cold and put something on to warm up, without judging nakedness itself to be shameful. Its a subtle difference, but in terms of inner harmony and peace of mind, it is an important one. If a person is dangerous to you, and you have to kill them (extreme example) you can judge them as evil and deserving to die, and take pleasure in punishing them for their evilness, or you can do it compassionately, as just a necessity without having to judge either them for being dangerous, or yourself for killing them. You can use "discernment" without "judgment" in the moral sense.

Like a child means more to trust that what is, and what has happened is not morally "bad" or "evil" it just is what it is, and move on. Young children may get angry and cry if someone hits them, but they dont make up big stories about how that child was evil until later in their childhood. They might even hit back, but are they judging the other child?

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
Hmm! This is a very interesting thing you propose! I wonder why God would allow the meaning of his only son to be twisted by man? I would think that his holy word and it's meaning would be well preserved, without flaw or error.

Because he is not the only son. We are all the sons and daughters of God. Jesus was just the only one at the time who remembered it. He mentions in the gospels several times that others are the children of God.

en.wikipedia.org...

Throughout the New Testament (see "New Testament passages", below) the phrase "son of God" is applied repeatedly, in the singular, only to Jesus. "Sons of God" is applied to others only in the plural.

Jesus alluded to the idea that a "holy spirit" (internal) would guide you, and that the way you lived your life (and how you thought) was what set you free, it was Paul who focused on this death as the redeeming act, and that faith was more important than works. Many Christians never question why Jesus himself would not have said this, but instead implored them to rid themselves of judgment and BE like him, rather than simply worship him.

Not all the Gospels insist Jesus was born of a virgin, and some of them indicate that it was his baptism at which he became the "son of God."

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
I do not think everyone fears death! I think everyone fears the process of dying, but not the end result. In my own opinion, I do not. Death is a natural thing, and I am willing to accept it, although I would certainly try to avoid it.

I often think I dont fear death either. But a friend of mine who also had a great deal of that feeling was diagnosed with a deadly cancer. It is hard to really know for sure how you feel about death until it is looking you in the face. Even Jesus faltered there, and asked God before he was arrested to "“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

I am not saying you are wrong, or lying, but only that it is hard to determine how you feel about death when it is distant from you. When it gets closer, you can more easily see it. The old ruminate more about their health and life than the young, the sick more than the healthy.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
Anyway, I just wanted to post my own opinion in response to yours about what life would be like if Adam and Eve never sinned! Again, I mean no ill will towards you and I mean not to change your opinion. I am just offering my own, because it is an enjoyable thing for me to do!

And I enjoyed it. Studying the Bible as a historical document is very interesting, and you can get a crash course from The Teaching Company, ("Lost Christianities" is a good one, it tells about the process by which we ended up with the version we now know) which sells college level courses (not for credit) on DvD or CD. "Bible Study" as done in churches, simply means memorizing dogma, (the version of the Bible that "won" in the battle for inclusion) but the history is very interesting, and puts the teachings of Jesus in a very different, and much more palatable light. Also, the Nag Hammadi has two gospels in fragmentary form which may predate some of the versions of the gospels in the official bible, (The gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Mary) and they also lend a different view as they have not been tampered with since they were lost all those years ago.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

yes and people still have children knowing that they will screw up.......

Hmm, interesting!

This is quite a thought provoking statement, at least for myself!

You are right that people have children knowing that their children will make mistakes. HOWEVER, people do not have children knowing that many, many, thousands, upon thousands of their children will spend an eternity in a never ending Hell.

If I was given the choice to have a child, and I knew that child would spend forever in Hell, I would rather not have the child at all.

Just my own opinion, and I respect yours!

Kind regards

[edit on 27-6-2010 by Hitotsumami]

you know, after having a child almost 6 years ago, this christianity stuff really hit home. i never really gave much a thought about these things, but now it was almost like, i need to figure out whats true, at least for the sake of my son.

i recently learned that the whole eternity hell thing is a lie, or that it could be all a misunderstanding. it may turn out that the question is whether you wanna live forever or not, which would require faith in christ, our lord

or you could wait for man to develop the science and technology and live forever, maybe through mind uploading or with implants.
this would bring the ultimate conflict i think between god and man.....

There is no such thing as "What if"? Only what is and what will be

Originally posted by soleprobe
There is no such thing as "What if"? Only what is and what will be

Guess you have no imagination.

They ate from the tree of knowledge which gave them the knowledge of "right and wrong" which allowed them to commit the first sin, if they didn't eat from the tree they'd of never known of the balance between good and evil. Preventing them from ever being mixed in the conflict.

If Adam and Eve never ate from the tree they'd of never committed a sin, because they'd of never known what a sin was.

At least that's what I gather from the story.

Originally posted by taccj9903

Originally posted by soleprobe
There is no such thing as "What if"? Only what is and what will be

Guess you have no imagination.

Maybe he imagines what might be in the future, based off of what has really happened in the past and what is really happening now.