Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

reply to post by Foppezao


The blockade is illegal. If Egypt had been the aggressor here, it would be just as wrong.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by InvisibleAlbatross]

Several popular arguments in this thread posit that Israel had every right to do this because they were an enforcing a blockade. A major issue I see with this line of reasoning is that the blockade itself is of questionable legality. [1] Further, Israel's arguments for the legality of the blockade essentially revolve around the position that the Geneva convention simply does not apply to them. [2] There is bitter irony here since the Geneva convention was negotiated after World War II in hopes of discouraging the egregious abuses seen on all sides during that conflict, but I digress. [3] Since the blockade, access to supplies including food, potable water, and even some utility services has been reduced to 25% of prior levels. [4] Bearing in mind that Gaza hasn't been a nice place to live for a very long time, 25% of their prior access to provisions is extremely severe. The Israelis restrict access to concrete, paper, pens, pasta, tomato sauce, etc. [5] This is not solely about keeping weapons out. Further, the blockade began not following rocket fire as is commonly claimed (in fact the rocket fire followed the blockade) but instead after Hamas legitimately won the elections. [6], [7] My conclusion is that Israel is punishing Palestinians for voting in a way in which they do not approve, but this is speculating about motive which is often a fruitless endeavor.

So that brings us to today. We have a dubious blockade which has been criticized by nearly everyone excepting Israel and the United States (and even Hillary Clinton has said she wants to see an end to it [8]). It is commonly seen by human rights advocates as collective punishment and this is hardly a controversial interpretation unless, of course, you are a supporter of Israel through "thick and thin". [9] Israel claims they are within international standards for maritime law, but even this flimsy support collapses if the blockade itself is illegal.

Regarding the debate centering around who "started it", clearly the commandos who (in all likelihood) illegally boarded a craft started it. Who are we kidding? You can argue that these people should have surrendered instead of defending themselves, but let's be clear - that is exactly what is being argued. Not that they did not have the right to defend themselves. Finally, this talk of communist extremists occupying these boats being some sort of justification is patently absurd. Would it be alright to jump a yacht full of neoconservatives because you find their political views nauseating?

[1] news.bbc.co.uk...
[2] www.jcpa.org...:_The_Assault_on_I srael%E2%80%99s_Right_to_Self-Defense
[3] www.icrc.org...
[4] www.csmonitor.com...
[5] www.huffingtonpost.com...
[6] www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull
[7] washingtonbureau.typepad.com...
[8] www.reuters.com...
[9] www.amnesty.org...

US activist loses eye after being shot in face with tear gas canister

It would appear that the tear gas use didn't stop with the raid. The IDF has reached a new low. Someone (Turkey, are you listening?) needs to stop these madmen.

Does anyone have statistics on what aid gets into Gaza and hunger levels there?

Sorry if this has been posted already... its a mad piece of night/flir footage from the Israeli boats of the helicopter boarding... complete with graphics showing the severe bashing the soldiers get.
I'm still reserving an opinion on the whole thing but this thread is fascinating.
ATS rocks.

Live Leak Video

www.liveleak.com...


edit: YES IT HAS!!

[edit on 31-5-2010 by manmental]

Originally posted by gambon

Originally posted by clay2 baraka

Originally posted by gambon
well in the video , many assaulters dont appear to be wearing protection , hence mentioning it.....

news.bbc.co.uk...

o.50 1 soldier in standard idf mask ..one wearing no mask

Which is odd. . . if you have deployed tear gas. .

YES...exactly my point , hence me doubting they used pepper balls or any tpe of gas , substance, equiptment which would make visibility worse on a relatively small ship

basically using gas on a windy ship is a bit pointless

[edit on 31-5-2010 by gambon]

There are multiple, live reports of CS gas, and flash-bang grenades being employed. . I have even seen footage of the assault team carrying tear gas launchers. .

Nice try, however.

In a blitz of military strength, masked commandos rapelled on to the Turkish ship's deck from a helicopter and boarded from the side by fast attack launch. They were armed with guns, stun grenades and tear gas.

www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 5/31/2010 by clay2 baraka]

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Link

here ya go bud...it's been linked many times in this thred...and wasn't hard to find.

reply to post by Foppezao

So then, i would dare all the ATS-ers over here what they think about the Egyptian (sout-western)blockade of Gaza, how about that? I'll happily wait for your answer..

That would be the Egypt that is paid billions of U.S. Taxpayer Dollars every year for signing the Camp David Peace Accord back in 1978?

Or the Egypt that quickly assissinated the Egyptian President (Sadat) who signed the deal?

Or the Egypt who has had the same President that then took Sadat's place in power ever since, getting billions of U.S. Taxpayer money every year, who is now 82 and still running Egypt almost 40 years later?

You have to be joking me right?

Egypt is paid to do what Egypt is told to do, and it does what it's told to do because it likes to get paid, just like Israel, American Tax Payer Dollars.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth

 

Hamas was working with European politicians and an 86 year-old Holocaust survivor?

(Yes I will keep bringing this up until it is addressed)

Well it looks like Hamas found itself some corrupt politicians and an 86 year old patsy. So what else is new. The question is...... Do you believe Hamas is a terrorist organization?

Obviously you are about to cite the "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" paradox, though for me, Hamas has already proven that it is not acting in the Palestinians best interest.

The likes of Hamas and Hizbullah incite violent response from Israel through their actions to bring international condemnation upon Israel, this gives Hamas and Hizbullah political credit. They are political militants and use the suffering of their native countries people to project their power.

After all, was it not the CIA/MI6/Mossad that created Hamas to begin with? The organisation primarily consisted of teachers that would 'educate' the next Palestinian generation to rise up against the PLO in a militant fashion. It failed when it went 'rogue', seeing the opportunity to gain political power and the Hamas you see today is the result.

An epic case of 'blow-back', as it is known in the intelligence community.

Originally posted by MEAT10AF
It would appear that the tear gas use didn't stop with the raid. The IDF has reached a new low. Someone (Turkey, are you listening?) needs to stop these madmen.

Call for more civilian deaths is just as disgusting and as mad as any crime Israel may have committed.

Looks like the IDF thought they were going to intimidate a boatload of hippies and instead ran into some very angry Turks!

What Israel did was illegal and appears to be an ill advised, poorly planned blunder. The IDF attacked a boat in international waters. Couldn't they wait until the flotilla was just off the coast of Gaza?

Originally posted by mack37
reply to post by DoomsdayRex

 

Link

here ya go bud...it's been linked many times in this thred...and wasn't hard to find.

Your rudeness was completely unnecessary.

omg, some stupid b*tch on CNN is spinning this to make the flotilla people as the bad guys... no surprise but holy sh*t, i didnt think they could do it. spinmasters...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Foppezao

 

So then, i would dare all the ATS-ers over here what they think about the Egyptian (sout-western)blockade of Gaza, how about that? I'll happily wait for your answer..

That would be the Egypt that is paid billions of U.S. Taxpayer Dollars every year for signing the Camp David Peace Accord back in 1978?

Or the Egypt that quickly assissinated the Egyptian President (Sadat) who signed the deal?

Or the Egypt who has had the same President that then took Sadat's place in power ever since, getting billions of U.S. Taxpayer money every year, who is now 82 and still running Egypt almost 40 years later?

You have to be joking me right?

Egypt is paid to do what Egypt is told to do, and it does what it's told to do because it likes to get paid, just like Israel, American Tax Payer Dollars.

Egypt also has a tourism revenue that they'd rather not lose.

Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


Well, it seems to me that she had good intentions but was also a victim of Hamas propaganda. She is not the first person to be used, nor will she be the last. Most people are open to persuasion, and at her age it would seem that she could be more easily manipulated ...... So the question stands. .... Do you believe Hamas is a terrorist organization?

TO CONFIRM PEOPLE ARE STARVING IN GAZA BECAUSE OF THE BLOCKADE
SOURCE

Perhaps even more alarming is the poor psychosocial well-being of children, with bedwetting and nightmares featuring heavily in focus group findings – both linked with fear and anxiety as a result of the ongoing conflict. “Most children with nightmares experience lack of concentration and attention deficit”, shared a teacher in a focus group session. Children show low levels of love of learning due to violence practiced against them, difficult curricular and deteriorated educational environment. ‘In the past, my father used to tell me, if you scored high marks in schools, I will bring you a bicycle. Now he stays at home with no job, he says nothing to encourage me”, said one student.

WOW and you all defend Israel's blockade of Gaza.

While nearly every household in Beit Lahya has access to water, the quality is so poor that 95% of households have to buy their drinking water. Many children are affected by parasites and diarrhoea, which is adequately treated in only 24% of cases. Mild stunting (low height for age) affects almost 13% of children, moderate stunting 8.46%, and severe stunting 4.83%. ‘My children have forgotten the shape and smell of cooked meat and chicken”, said a mother in one focus group.

I don't see how people can read what Israel does to CHILDREN and still defend this illegal blockade.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Does anyone have statistics on what aid gets into Gaza and hunger levels there?

Wikipedia says according to Tel Aviv NGO Gisha it's about 25% of "prior levels" but I can't find the source that supports it. You can read that here: en.wikipedia.org...

As far as hunger goes, I have heard 62% as a figure for malnourished Palestinians as a consequence of the blockade but I find it very difficult to find a good source that supports a specific number of any kind.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


War doesn't have rules. Making rules in war only makes things worst. That is why war is evil.

In the footage you can see 'peaceful activists' wearing gas masks and brandishing metal bars beating soldiers before they have even put boots on the deck.

If that is what you call defence then I think you need to take your meds....

That is an attack as I see it.


Again I will say it, Israel should not have conducted this raid in international waters, however the 'militant' members of this 'hippy boat' initiated the violence according to the footage.

Ha ha... this is more revealing... another israeli film showing the lethal weapons the 'attackers' had.

catapults. and marbles.

israel lost their marbles me think.

what did they think was going to happen?

the helicopter angle was stupid... they watch too many movies.

www.liveleak.com...