Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

reply to post by jam321

If so, it doesn't matter if it is 1% or 100%, they are still guilty.

CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY YOUR TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR THEM RATHER THAN CONDEMN THEM.

It is not topical, anyone who knows Proto knows he won't stray from the real topic of the thread, lets review shall we.

Israeli Ships attack aid flotilla...

Not seeing the word Egypt in there how about you?

Tragic it is and I have never said Israel shouldn't be condemned for this. On the same token, you cannot deny that the aid ship were looking for this confrontation. Stupidity runs high on both sides.

For a guy with a military background are you going to tell be that you wouldn’t have been expecting some kind of interference or interjection from Israel especially considering what has transpired during other aide flotillas like former Congress Woman Cynthia McKinney’s?

It seems to me that Israel would have been well served by sticking with the ramming strategy.

So we get back to should people who have a humane desire to help others wither in the face of military might, the same military might that is causing the inhumane situation that the humanitarians are trying to relieve.

Forewarned is forearmed, and it would have been incredibly naïve to not anticipate a response from at least the Israeli Navy, but it would have also be incredibly wrong for people of conscious not to stand up to “Might makes right” bullies and thugs.

Once again had Israel not interceded no one on either side would have gotten hurt.

Further had they interceded in the same ways they have previously by ramming the craft chances are it would not have resulted in any loss of life, and the ships rammed would have to make for the nearest port, for repairs, possibly under tow.

And it also makes sense that when a military is telling you to back off, it just might be wise to do what the military says.

Which is why we are all so happy here in the United States of Great Brittian today as our forefathers wisely chose to recognize the Divine Authority of the King's Army and lay down their arms and go home and drink heavily taxed tea.

As a military man I am guessing you have at some point encountered enemy army forces who wanted you to stop?

Why exactly didn't you?

No deflection here. The issue of Egypt was brought up and you made excuses for them.

Really explaining the details of why things are happening is making excuses for people?

And you say there is no deflection involved in your posts?

Same pressure as on Israel to end the blockade. Why do you think the Palestinians are building those tunnels on the Egyptian border?

Because Gaza has been turned into an open air prison and the best way out of prison is a tunnel.

Ideally you don’t dig the tunnel to come up in the guard shack. The Egyptian Border is under less surveillance, and its easier once beyond it to travel without some armed jackbooted thug saying “Papers!”

It should be noted Israel built the walls around Gaza not Egypt and not the Gazans, and the Egyptians nor the Gazans installed the computerized automated machine gun turrets in them meant to keep everyone in the Prison.

But here is what gets me most out of all of this. Why does it take a freaking incident like this to bring world attention back to the situation in Gaza?

You are kidding me right? Between the Gulf Oil Spill, Oh No Iran Has the Bomb, might have the bomb, wants a bomb, thinks the latest production of Cats is a bomb, and all the other tripe that is spoon fed to the masses to conjure up doom and gloom and fear?

The Israeli strategy is persistence, and all one needs to do is look at the map to see how that has paid off for them.

Israel will keep chipping away at Gaza and the West Bank, the UN will continue to do nothing about it but pay lip service...

BUT WHEN DECENT HUMAN BEINGS WITH THEIR OWN MONEY AND TIME TRY THEY WILL BE KILLED AND VILLIFIED BY THE ISRAELI STATE AND ITS ZIONIST SUPPORTERS!

I have yet to see any Naval force from another country try to end the blockade.

Only the U.S. Military could do this, anyone else would be risking a war with the U.S. Military.

We have bases in 152 countries the math is simple.

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
Fact of the matter remains, you have automatic weapons versus what ammounts to kids toys and makeshift weapons. Quite a bit uneven IMO. There also remains the issue of the people trying to board the boat in the first place. Of course they were going to attack the soldiers before they had a chance to hit the deck, anyone in their position would have done the same. Some pirates attempt to board your vessel, you hit them before they get their bearings, not after they have their guns trained on you.

Chrono

With all due respect, they were armed with automatic weapons for self defence.

If they intended using them before they hit the deck then they would have used guns from the door of the blackhawk.

They did not board with the intention of commiting acts of violence to these people. Until it got ugly, they were essentially an armed police force.

So, I disagree, the response from the 'mob' was violent and provoked a 'fight fire with fire' response.

They should not have boarded the ship in international waters, this is totally true, however if the mob had not prepared to greet them with such violence then no lives would have been lost either.


[edit on 31-5-2010 by Skellon]

Originally posted by Skellon
beating soldiers before they have even put boots on the deck.

Well they are soldiers not pastry chefs... and usually when soldiers come uninvited it's to fight not shake hands.

Massive double post edited to remove massive double post.

Second line:

It is rather disheartening to say the least when humanitarian aide workers are killed in a aide operation.

Aide work can be quite dangerous because of the politics of certain regimes and people.

It's pretty sad though all the same, especially when it never had to happen like it did happen, and the party most responsible for that, never wants to be held responsible for any of it's actions.

[edit on 31/5/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by Skellon
beating soldiers before they have even put boots on the deck.

Well they are soldiers not pastry chefs... and usually when soldiers come uninvited it's to fight not shake hands.

As I said earlier, these special forces (Sayeret Matkal) were modelled on the British SAS and even share the same motto.

They are not trained to murder, they are trained to preserve life if they can. These guys are not mindless killers, they have more respect for life than most of the 'convienient peace lovers' on this board.

This is evident in the footage that displays that even though these soldiers are risking death at the hands of the 'peace activists' they still do not open fire until instructed to do so in self-defence.



[edit on 31-5-2010 by Skellon]

Its obvious that the United States is under attack from every form of oppressive ideology and misfit on the planet.

I find it amazing how anyone could defend or make excuses for Terrorist Hamas. Even Al Capone ran soup kitchens and gave money to the church.

Communists, Progressives, Socialists, Anti Semite's, Terrorists, Illegal Immigrants, Radical Islamists, Racists, Conspirators, et. al. are HELL BENT on destroying this great nation of ours.

It seems to me that if you are white, and or Christian or Jewish, you ARE the evil oppressor and you must be silenced in your own land.

When ever I feel the need to be amused or entertained, I watch some of the many Radical Islamic execution videos on the web. I just love to see people who hate this country kill themselves off. There's nothing like having a few cold ones and watching a few Alan Ackbars!

Any of you terrorists care to respond?

Originally posted by Skellon

Originally posted by Caveat Lector

Originally posted by Skellon

I believe it was the late William 'Bill' Cooper that stated words to this effect; I do not believe that any man is evil, no man wakes up in the morning intent on doing evil. The actions of a man may be deemd as evil but in their mind they are justified in whatever their intent is.

Just to clarify, not talking about individual soldiers here but rather the government that ordered the strike.

Do they wake up in the morning wanting to commit evil, I hope not. However there is a real possibility they wake up and decide that the toughest kid on the block doesn't get pushed around, so better bloody some noses for little reason but to show them we're tough.

It's barbaric what's just happened here. Just think what these people were trying to achieve and for what reasons - look what Israel has done!!!

File this under 'Wild Speculation'.

It is my belief that there was a 'mob for hire' on this ship.

The footage shows about 20 people on top deck 'resisting' the boarding party.

This ship was carrying hundreds of people. They are not to be seen as they obviously did not want anything to do with it.

If you are armed with everything apart from firearms and you beat someone with the intent on killing them and they use a gun on you as they fear for their lives.. providing both parties survive, who is then the guilty party?

This reaks of set-up to me.

We may actually find out someday.

However I respect your opinion.

That theory is intresting , I was also "intrested " in the amount of apparent israili ops in typical israil undercover civvies.. Is there a possibility this ship was infiltrated in cyprus /turkey with undercover ops ( the guys with tavor ?and shemagh over face olive jackets to controll the ship during a possible landing?

ibnlive.in.com...

Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action, Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

Israel has sounded an alert throughout the country fearing rocket attacks by Hezbollah in Lebanon.

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth

I find it amazing how anyone could defend or make excuses for Terrorist Hamas. Even Al Capone ran soup kitchens and gave money to the church.

Really what exactly does Hamas or Israel have to do with the United States?

How is that making excuses for Israel is American again?

Communists, Progressives, Socialists, Anti Semite's, Terrorists, Illegal Immigrants, Radical Islamists, Racists, Conspirators, et. al. are HELL BENT on destroying this great nation of ours.

Which great nation would that be? The Fourth Reich?

It seems to me that if you are white, and or Christian or Jewish, you ARE the evil oppressor and you must be silenced in your own land.

Which land is this that you feel the Deed says Property of White's Christians and Jews?

When ever I feel the need to be amused or entertained, I watch some of the many Radical Islamic execution videos on the web. I just love to see people who hate this country kill themselves off. There's nothing like having a few cold ones and watching a few Alan Ackbars!

There is a real surprise, you joined ATS why?

To promote ignorance?

Any of you terrorists care to respond?

I think any terrorists would be hard pressed to paint such a frightening picture of themselves!

Originally posted by Skellon

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by Skellon
beating soldiers before they have even put boots on the deck.

Well they are soldiers not pastry chefs... and usually when soldiers come uninvited it's to fight not shake hands.

They are not trained to murder, they are trained to preserve life ...
[edit on 31-5-2010 by Skellon]

Well they should have brought a bunch of big signs with them saying: WE ARE COMING ON BOARD TO PRESERVE YOUR LIFE ... maybe different color uniforms beside the usual kaki combat green would have also been beneficial... say light blue with pink letters on the back saying "Life Savers"

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

the world doesn't ignore Egypt's partnership in the blockade,

Can you really say that with a straight face?

but why would they pressure Egypt when they KNOW that the source of all this evil stems from the fact that the US is corrupting their Egyptian puppet with a lot of American tax payer Dollar!

So just because the US is giving Egypt money, this should be a good enough reason not to pressure Egypt.

Israel and AIPAC are conducting the ethnic cleansing of Palestinans in the occupied territories.

Open your eyes and you will see that many more countries are doing the same thing. Where is Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Turkey, France...list goes on and on?

Btw! it saddens my heart to see so many war apologists and haters of Palestinian children in this thread.

If your talking about me, just say it directly and provide the proof. Otherwise, your general comment doesn't mean squat.

You should all take a good look in the mirror and be really ashamed of yourselves infront of the whole world!

Lead the way to the mirror. Your excuse for the world not to pressure Egypt shows you need to look in the mirror.

I mean exactly what I say here!

The US has been behind the evil developments in the Middle East by propping up evil dictatorships and being controlled by the AIPAC lobbyists who are currupting not only the US congress but also by interfering in the US foreign policies by dictating the demands of Isreal.

The pressure should in my opinon be both on the US and Egypt to stop doing the dirty work for the Isrealis.

But your Government is sadly broken and corrupted by Israel and money!

Egypt's dictator is unfortunately also corrupted by the same dollars!

So I don't blame Egypt first! I blame the evil source to all this which is the United States of America and the Israeli influence of the US which is corrupting the leaders of the Middle East with American taxpayer Dollar and the Petro Dollar Recycling system.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

It is not topical, anyone who knows Proto knows he won't stray from the real topic of the thread, lets review shall we.

Your review lacks merit. You yourself answered about Egypt. Guess that wasn't straying in your eyes.

For a guy with a military background are you going to tell be that you wouldn’t have been expecting some kind of interference or interjection from Israel especially considering what has transpired during other aide flotillas like former Congress Woman Cynthia McKinney’s?

With a military background, i would have never advertised the whole thing and made a big publicity out of it knowing how past incidents have played out.

So we get back to should people who have a humane desire to help others wither in the face of military might, the same military might that is causing the inhumane situation that the humanitarians are trying to relieve.

Yep, which leads to my point. Where is the world? If it were me leading the charge, I would sneak in. If I got caught then I would surrender the boat. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't go back to the drawing board and try to sneak in again.

But to advertise that you are coming?

You are kidding me right? Between the Gulf Oil Spill, Oh No Iran Has the Bomb, might have the bomb, wants a bomb, thinks the latest production of Cats is a bomb, and all the other tripe that is spoon fed to the masses to conjure up doom and gloom and fear?

Excuses again. Surely, leaders of the world and all their assistants can handle more than one task at a time.

UN will continue to do nothing about it but pay lip service...

Watch out, we are starting to agree. You see this is the pattern. World gets upset at Israel and worries about the area and then world forgets about the area.

Only the U.S. Military could do this, anyone else would be risking a war with the U.S. Military.

IMO, if enough sustained world pressure was put on the US and Israel, the US would have to get in. The only reason that pressure is not there is because many other governments, including our own, are more interested in other things than the lives in that area.

As a military man I am guessing you have at some point encountered enemy army forces who wanted you to stop?

Problem is that the aid workers weren't thinking military. They advertised their intentions rather than sneaking in.

Seriously, would you tell your enemy the time and date and manner in which you are coming over?

Originally posted by Skellon
However, if you were in one of those soldiers shoes and just before you hit the deck you have an angry mob beating you with metal bars, hammers, knives and using marbles in catupults lets see how you would control your trigger finger.

These soldiers took the beating of an angry mob and did not open fire until ordered to.

These are brave men, they perform a duty and perform it with discipline. It is proof that they are not the blood thirsty murderers that propoganda brainwashes you to believe.
. . . .

My guessing is that had you been one of those soldiers and believed in what you were doing you would not have had the backbone to leave the blackhawk.

It's a pity Mother Teresa is not still alive. The 1000 armoured, armed commandos could have murdered her too, and become even greater heroes in your eyes.

I guess shooting Palestinian children makes the Israeli forces superheroes . . .

Originally posted by TheCoffinman
ibnlive.in.com...

Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action, Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

Israel has sounded an alert throughout the country fearing rocket attacks by Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Their fear is justified
And anticipated
And well earned

They are cabalists, they don't know about karma...

reply to post by Chevalerous


Well, at least we are starting to agree to a certain point.

IMO, the reality is that the money aspect in the world is more important the lives in the area.

When incidents like this happen, you hear all kinds of political jargon an threats. But in the end that is all there is.

This problem has been going on for quite some time and the world, not just the US, has put everything else as a higher priority.

The same can be said about Sudan, Darfur, Congo and other parts of the world as well.

Originally posted by Caveat Lector
These Israeli's are not part of the same human race that the rest of us are part of.

These paranoid people are afraid that the western masses will learn the evil truth as the middle eastern populations do.

Free the blockade now, stop religious discrimination, stop threatening your neighbours and disrupting the world with lies lies and greed.

Sadly, they are.
Humans everywhere, under the "right" circumstances, are capable of becoming this evil.

That's why we must all monitor our own tendencies, control our own behaviour, and do what we can to guide the behaviour of our own countries. Freedom and decent, civilised behaviour are not givens, they are an ideal to be perpetually worked towards or drifted away from.

Originally posted by gambon

Originally posted by Skellon

Originally posted by Caveat Lector

Originally posted by Skellon

I believe it was the late William 'Bill' Cooper that stated words to this effect; I do not believe that any man is evil, no man wakes up in the morning intent on doing evil. The actions of a man may be deemd as evil but in their mind they are justified in whatever their intent is.

Just to clarify, not talking about individual soldiers here but rather the government that ordered the strike.

Do they wake up in the morning wanting to commit evil, I hope not. However there is a real possibility they wake up and decide that the toughest kid on the block doesn't get pushed around, so better bloody some noses for little reason but to show them we're tough.

It's barbaric what's just happened here. Just think what these people were trying to achieve and for what reasons - look what Israel has done!!!

File this under 'Wild Speculation'.

It is my belief that there was a 'mob for hire' on this ship.

The footage shows about 20 people on top deck 'resisting' the boarding party.

This ship was carrying hundreds of people. They are not to be seen as they obviously did not want anything to do with it.

If you are armed with everything apart from firearms and you beat someone with the intent on killing them and they use a gun on you as they fear for their lives.. providing both parties survive, who is then the guilty party?

This reaks of set-up to me.

We may actually find out someday.

However I respect your opinion.

That theory is intresting , I was also "intrested " in the amount of apparent israili ops in typical israil undercover civvies.. Is there a possibility this ship was infiltrated in cyprus /turkey with undercover ops ( the guys with tavor ?and shemagh over face olive jackets to controll the ship during a possible landing?

This would certainly make sense and I believe that if Israel could have planted plain clothed operators on board they certainly would have.

However on this occasion I do not believe they did. I might be wrong though.

The most effective way to board this ship would have been to gas/flashbang it from the chopper before putting your troops on deck, however in light of the January 08' use of smoke grenades in Gaza then I believe this is why they chose the less controversial 'clean' tactic that they used which made them vunerable.

Another case of soldiers fighting with their 'hand behind their backs'.

I think most people would think of what I am going to say now as outrageous, however it is my belief that if the military was allowed to be the military in modern times then less lives would be lost.

It is the political involvement that we see more an more that makes these wars protracted and therefore costs more lives in the long term.

It is exactly the 'international condemnation' that most on here scream of that results in excess loss of life in the long term as politicians ever more aware of how they are viewed on the geopolitcal stage sabotage the military efforts.

As someone said earlier in this thread, let them sort it out. This very complex situation in the Middle East will not go away anytime soon and the longer it is drawn out the more lives are lost.

I do not wish death upon people in this world but sometimes 'solving the problem' there and then is a better option than protracting it with politics, pressure groups and public opinion.

Flame away...

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Skellon]

i hope that the thus far spineless US of A (regarding israel) shows some balls for once and joins the chorus of world disapproval and condemnation of this murderous regimes actions...
Without that the slaughtering of civilians will continue unabated..

To defend israel's murderous ways( in "self defence" of course....) shows an inhumanity equal to israel's....

And a lower-case "i"srael is not a typo...

reply to post by Skellon


"I think most people would think of what I am going to say now as outrageous, however it is my belief that if the military was allowed to be the military in modern times then less lives would be lost."



I wholeheartedly and with a sad heart agree , People should realise war is a terrible and bloody business an absence of the norms that most of humanity values


"in light of the January 08' use of smoke grenades in Gaza then I believe this is why they chose the less controversial 'clean' tactic that they used which made them vunerable."

again agreed ,wind made gas useless imo
,

[edit on 31-5-2010 by gambon]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by gambon]

WOW!!! This has gained more attention than the gulf oil spill... WHY IS THAT???