Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by little_green_man
Tough luck.... what were you expecting? A welcoming party?

Not in the least.

However, the "innocent humanitarians" absolutely had to know what they were provoking (just as the Israelis did) in this. I am not saying the Israelis are innocent; but what I am saying is that the "humanitarians" definitely are not.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Perhaps because Israel and Turkey are on the best terms when it comes to other countries in the Middle East and Israel.

That may be true.

But again, insert your favorite country of choice into the equation. Would you take anyone else's word for it?

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Not to mention...it's all besides the point. They could have escorted them into a port in Gaza and searched them....No instead they raid the ship with armed Commandos....Smart....*facepalm*

Perhaps they could have. Certainly it was not the smartest move on their part, boarding the ship and not doing it with a force large enough to control the ship in the first place.

I wonder how many Somali pirates are sitting before their t.v now, chewing some khat and thinking..."mmm we could have made a lot more bucks if we didn't go so soft on those marines coming down their ropes, with our ak's and rpg's..and we didn't even had women and young adults with us?"

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by BlackOps719

That would be like going into someones home and waving a gun in their face, then claiming that I had to shoot them because they were trying to stop me.....from shooting them??? God forbid they want to live!!

Two plus two does not equal five here people. Let's use a bit of common sense.

The fact that a group of armed commandos who illegally boarded this ship are trying to justify shooting a dozen humnatarian aid workers in cold blood as "self defense" is disgusting.

Then by all means, start using it.

You claim the Israelis went on board to shoot the civilians. You have no way of knowing that. You further claim they did it in cold-blood, again you have no way of knowing that. The only facts we have are they the Israelis boarded the ship, were met with violent resistance and in the end, several people ended up dead. You further claim that Israelis boarded the ship waving guns in people's faces, while none of the video evidence shows that. All it shows are the commandos being attacked the moment they board the ship.

Don't accuse people of not using common sense when you yourself are neither using it or even bothering to look at the facts, only headlines.

Well, I sort of do have a way of knowing that, seeing as how they SHOT 15-20 PEOPLE.


The fact is the Israeli military had no right whatsoever to board a foreign vessel in international waters.

The fact that they showed up fully armed and ready to kill indicated the mind set that they had and shows intention. They could have guided the boat to shore, they could have commandeered the staff and taken the boat ashore. Instead they chose to provoke a blood bath and murder civillians.

The fact that the ship had already been checked and it's cargo had been approved by Turkish officials shows that the Israeli military was less concerned about the cargo and its contents and more so interested in terrorizing and intimidating the passengers as a political act of aggression.

The fact that Israel has no rights whatsoever to board a foreign ship travelling in open international waters. This constitutes PIRACY!!


The fact that the IDF is attempting to pass off this turkey shoot as self defense, when their hitmen were fully armed with automatic weapons while facing at worst a group of untrained civillians armed with sticks and knives? Please. Self defense, what a joke.


I don't care how the corrupt press and the IDF try to spin it, this was straight up criminal and it is nothing short of cut throat style murder, and the people of the world will know what happened. The more the IDF lies the more they spin this tragedy the bigger the hole they dig to bury themselves in.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by BlackOps719]

Originally posted by nickoli
And if you try and run a military blockade after you've been told repeatedly you'd be stopped, your an idiot. The people aboard this flotilla qualify for the darwin award.

And..... what if this blockade is ILLEGAL?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by little_green_man
Tough luck.... what were you expecting? A welcoming party?

Not in the least.

However, the "innocent humanitarians" absolutely had to know what they were provoking (just as the Israelis did) in this. I am not saying the Israelis are innocent; but what I am saying is that the "humanitarians" definitely are not.

So self-defence is a crime?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by BlackOps719

That would be like going into someones home and waving a gun in their face, then claiming that I had to shoot them because they were trying to stop me.....from shooting them??? God forbid they want to live!!

Two plus two does not equal five here people. Let's use a bit of common sense.

The fact that a group of armed commandos who illegally boarded this ship are trying to justify shooting a dozen humnatarian aid workers in cold blood as "self defense" is disgusting.

Then by all means, start using it.

You claim the Israelis went on board to shoot the civilians. You have no way of knowing that. You further claim they did it in cold-blood, again you have no way of knowing that. The only facts we have are they the Israelis boarded the ship, were met with violent resistance and in the end, several people ended up dead. You further claim that Israelis boarded the ship waving guns in people's faces, while none of the video evidence shows that. All it shows are the commandos being attacked the moment they board the ship.

Don't accuse people of not using common sense when you yourself are neither using it or even bothering to look at the facts, only headlines.

Well, you claim that the commandos were attacked the moment they boarded the ship. You have no way of knowing that either.

Basing your claims on the video that IDF released?
Does the video show the whole incursion? No.
Who is to say what took place in this and the other boats before the events of the video transpired?

I'm sorry, but this video is no proof of what you claim. We must wait for first hand witness accounts to begin to have a better picture of how thinks went south aboard the boat.

Just my humble opinion.

reply to post by Bhadhidar


in my book there is no single puppet master nor a single "show" which entertains the masses but humans just do the dumbest things when least expected and without the need of a "divine" helping hand

today was one of thouse incidents

but what can be learnt from todays extraordinary event is that there is no such thing as boarders nor international laws regarding what a military force may do to civilians.

so i guess from this day on its open house night ?

reply to post by nenothtu

Well then, I see your point. That makes it entirely acceptable to run wild with half the facts or no facts at all, and knee-jerk a judgment in the situation. What was I thinking, insisting on hearing facts and verifications first? I don't know what came over me, coming in to counter such unfounded conclusions.

This from the man who once argued bitterly that Hezbollah has Palestinian members, even though Palestinians are kept in Refugee Camps ringed by the Lebanese Army, and the Hezbollah being Shiite Muslims and the Palestinians being Sunni Muslims?

And no, I will never let you live that one down.

The thing with investigations is they are only as credible as the investigators themselves are. If the investigators are biased you have biased conclusions.

Biased investigators by the way would be those that urge others to do, what they won’t actually do themselves!

With Israel now in possession of most if not all the forensic evidence, then in reality, no there is not going to be a credible unbiased investigation, and with plenty of time to tamper with the forensics and intimidate witnesses, and get stories straight amongst the soldiers, no less biased entity is going to complete a credible unbiased investigation either.

So the truth is that the truth in this case are just the simple facts of a number of unarmed civilian ships being boarded and attacked by the Israeli Armed Forces who then murdered nine of the people onboard those ships.

This absolutely is not subject to speculation or further investigation because we do know that this is what essentially transpired and the outcome of what essentially transpired.

Anything else is damage control, and the reality is that yes, while the flotilla organizers and Palestinians have no shortage of reasons to want to make the original charges more damning, you really can’t get more damning than what was actually done, so there is no need to spin it to make it worse on the flotilla side, just a need to spin it to make it less damning on the Israeli side.

For that I fear in such circumstances, not all the time in the world, would be enough to spin away from the base facts.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
Who gave the command to board the ship(s) instead of disabling it?

Disabling it could have resorted in even more lives lost and (I am assuming, I have no way of knowing) the Israelis could have thought taking physical control of the ship may have been safer.

When it comes to targets that aren't impoverished women and children, the Israelis (Khazars) haven't a clue on how to kill efficiently. That is why this backfired on them. Hopefully they will realize that they need to pursue peace soon.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by little_green_man
Tough luck.... what were you expecting? A welcoming party?

Not in the least.

However, the "innocent humanitarians" absolutely had to know what they were provoking (just as the Israelis did) in this. I am not saying the Israelis are innocent; but what I am saying is that the "humanitarians" definitely are not.

See, I don't understand people saying "they know what they are provoking".

No, what are they provoking? They are doing nothing criminal. They are doing nothing evil. They aren't smuggling in weapons or terrorists. They are bringing aid themselves through a blockade that any rational person who understands the full nature of the whole situation there would deem unjust.

This is no different than saying that blacks attacked during the civil rights movement "purposely provoked" violence against them. Yes, considering the tensions one can see what could be provoked from what they are doing, but does this automatically make them not innocent? What they are doing is innocent in nature. The atmosphere in which the action took place in and atmosphere these people are trying to get rid of, is what caused the effect.

reply to post by MorfeuZ


www.youtube.com...

See the video

Originally posted by TruthWizard
they had guns, not batons, not tazers, not sound cannons, not riot shields they had lethal guns, so yes they intended to shoot people.

If you watch the video at RealClearPolitics I linked to, the Israelis boarded with what appear to be paint-ball guns (though IDF says they were not paintball guns, rather some sort of non-lethal weapon), you can see one of the Israelis holding it at the 50 second mark, and sidearms.

Either way, your argument is a non-sequitur and an indictment of every single gun owner of the United States. Just because you have a gun, does not mean you intend to kill someone.

And again, if the Israelis' intention was just to kill people, we would be discussing a much higher death toll.

The million dollar questions:

1. How is providing aid to starving humans "provoking"?

2. Why did the Khazars board the ship with weapons (known as piracy) and then claim self defense? That's like me drowning myself and then accusing the water of murder.



I will never understand the logic of these people and those who defend them.





Water, you MURDERED me, even though I came to you and drowned myself! I want my cake and I want to eat it too! Anything else is simply anti-Semitic.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by TSawyer]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Dude...Seriously....How are they NOT defending themselves...Armed soldiers are assaulting their ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS...

Watch the video. At the 40 second mark you can see someone being repeatedly beaten with pipes/poles. Now tell me, is that self-defense.

Whether or not the ship was in international waters, whether or not Israelis were right to board the ship, the "humanitarians" attacked first and were purposefully try to hurt or kill those soldiers. Yes, this could have been avoided if Israel did not board the ship. But it also could have been avoided if the "humanitarians" had not resorted to violence.

*FACEPALM* Logic in fail mode dude. You just stated this could have been avoided IF Israel did not board the ship...And then stated it also could have been avoided if they hadn't "DEFENDED" themselves from an assaulting party of Commandos.

The Second part would never have had to happen, if the first hadn't.......Come on....

[edit on 5/31/10 by ElijahWan]

Originally posted by little_green_man
So self-defence is a crime?

I do not see self-defense there. I see an attempt to harm and kill.

There's a word that keeps coming up here, "Provoked", and that is applied to provide Israel with a legitimate excuse for the actions in this scenario.

International Waters are not Israel's jurisdiction.

A flotilla seeking to help those being systematically starved and murdered is not a Provocation to anyone with any sanity.

When you are attacked in International Waters by what amounts to well armed and government sanctioned Piracy, then of course all aboard will want to Defend themselves. I would have done as the activists in this case are reported to have done.

Israel can use the "We were provoked" defense, but it lacks any ground or legitimacy.

Shame also to see so much in-fighting on the thread. The apologists amongst you need to wake up and take a good look at their most favoured country's actions and understand that that government has no Rights or Jurisdiction outside of their own country and waters.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by TruthWizard
they had guns, not batons, not tazers, not sound cannons, not riot shields they had lethal guns, so yes they intended to shoot people.

If you watch the video at RealClearPolitics I linked to, the Israelis boarded with what appear to be paint-ball guns (though IDF says they were not paintball guns, rather some sort of non-lethal weapon), you can see one of the Israelis holding it at the 50 second mark, and sidearms.

Either way, your argument is a non-sequitur and an indictment of every single gun owner of the United States. Just because you have a gun, does not mean you intend to kill someone.

And again, if the Israelis' intention was just to kill people, we would be discussing a much higher death toll.

Non-lethal? Of course.... israel just went in to play a friendly game of cops and robbers, and those 16 dead just bumped their head while running around, and bled to death.

Poor IDF, those un-armed civillians are so evil

Originally posted by ElijahWan
*FACEPALM* Logic in fail mode dude. You just stated this could have been avoided IF Israel did not board the ship...And then stated it also could have been avoided if they hadn't "DEFENDED" themselves from an assaulting party of Commandos.

Originally posted by ElijahWan

They were not defending themselves. Beating people repeatedly with pipes and chairs is not defense. It is bloodlust.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
The Second part would never have had to happen, if the first hadn't....

And you are completely right. Just as it could have been avoided if the passengers had stood down instead of trying to kill Israelis.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by little_green_man
So self-defence is a crime?

I do not see self-defense there. I see an attempt to harm and kill.

Why are they harming those soldiers?


Because they're boarding a boat in international waters, while armed with guns.

If someone with guns, real or fake(but still somehow able to kill 16), invaded my home; I would attack them for sure

Originally posted by little_green_man
Non-lethal? Of course.... israel just went in to play a friendly game of cops and robbers, and those 16 dead just bumped their head while running around, and bled to death.

Poor IDF, those un-armed civillians are so evil

Not only are you twisting my words but you have failed to read my entire post. Notice the part where I also said they were carrying sidearms. And you have failed to also read the part where I said the Israelis were not innocent in this matter. Before you resort to idiotic reductio ad ridiculum, you would do well to consider everything a person has said.