Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

reply to post by jam321


So basically what you are saying is this:

The rights of humans go out of the window, if a country above the law decides to further allow more suffering on those who only wish to help others.

In your eyes, murder is justified because you let dictators and blood-thirsty generals decide what is wrong and right?

Strange world you occupy there.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex


Sorry, but the facts do not bear that out. If Israel simply wanted to kill a bunch of people as you claim, they could have sunk the ship. They could have gone in weapons hot and killed many more people. But that did not happen.

From reading the responses I have, it seems most people have not reviewed the facts but have only read the headlines.

But they did kill a bunch of people. That is the FACTS.

Your speculations as how they could have killed even more belong in the wishful thinking category.

Stop being coy.

My question is this: What is going to be the fall-out from this? We can debate the why's and do's and dont's all day but the fact is that this has happened.

Now what?

Originally posted by Concept X
Israeli army releases 'flotilla footage'

news.bbc.co.uk...

"Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships." - Doesn't look that way to me...

Watch the video on that please, you can clearly see Israeli troops coming down onto the boat via helicopter and as soon as they land, the activists on the boat rush in and start to beat and attack the soldiers.

In my opinion, its no wonder shots were fired and people died, to me it looks like self defence.

I don't think any of it is right, but i don't think people should start to blame Israel so quickly when they are greeted in such a manner (Obviously they are not going to be very welcomed, but if the activists didn't start attacking and throwing the Israeli soldiers overboard as soon as the landed, i don't think it would of ended with death).

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Concept X]

They invade the ship and they are self defending?

And response of IDF was really inadequate. I think, Israeli commandos are not used to meeting resistance and got cowardly.
But, those who sent them knew this would happen.

reply to post by Concept X


WHY WERE THEY ON THE BOAT?

Cause and effect.

They had no reason to commit piracy. Is defending yourselves against piracy illegal now? When since?

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


ships where cleard on cyprus
on their way to gaza on internationalwaters
trying to get past an illegal blockade thats been condemed by U.N
israel tries to get in contact with the ships so that cargo can be transfered to gaza by land without the ships entering israeli terrirory
ships deny and continue on international waters
IDF ? board ships outside of own juristiction
ships fight back , IDF ? kills 9 wounds 30 ? out side israeli boarders
IDF ? take the occupied ships to israel where they deport thouse that arent thrown in jail while waiting for sentence ?

anything i missed ?

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

You believe the IDF saying the passengers had guns? Even after the story changed 4 times, getting progressively worse?

News always changes.. as the story is wound together. 7 Israeli's were shot, I find it hard to believe 7 cases of friendly fire..

And as I've stated Israel has let ships with Humanitarian aid enter Gaza.. why attack one flotilla (especially a Turkish one.. Israel and Turkey are usually on good terms with each-other) ..

I'm not saying Israel was "defending" themselves.. in all likelihood Israel tried to board the boat and the people on board refused, Israel pulls their guns, they pull their guns, and a battle ensues.

I don't believe for a second that they entered the boat and shot indiscriminately for little reason.. I know that's what some people on the thread want to hear.. but I'm a realist, I look at things objectively.

If you were looking objectively you would have realized that Turkish officials checked the Flotilla before it left. No firearms, or ammunition were on board. So what happened? They pulled those weapons outta the sea and fired on the IDF? Come on....Yer eating Israel's lies up Hook Line and Sinker.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
My question is this: What is going to be the fall-out from this? We can debate the why's and do's and dont's all day but the fact is that this has happened.

Now what?

WWIII.

Second line.





Or nothing.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ickylevel]

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by TSawyer

 

OK, whatever you say. They been advertising this trip for the longest including their destination. Israel warned them many times they would not be allowed in.

Now, don't you think that once Israel said they wouldn't let them in that this group would see the writing on the wall and give up the trip?

They wanted the confrontation and the publicity that comes with it.

I agree, if they didn't ran through the blockade they had made a "short" stop at Ashdod and after screening the relief would have gone to Gaza..But yes Israel seem to have lost their benefit of the doubt, especially on this site, it is also up to Israel to change some of their reputation..

Originally posted by Canslli
But that happened because they invaded the ships. Actually, in this case, the people on the ships were defending themselves.

It is very clear they were not defending themselves. Please, watch the video. They were not defending themselves, they were trying to hurt and kill. That is not self-defense. It is clear to me that some of this "innocent humanitarians" had violence on their minds. Contrast this incident to the seizure of 15 British sailors by Iran in 2007.

reply to post by makeitso


Well I trust UN officials far more than anyone on the internet, but this one jumps out right away:

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

There is a shortage of food and fuel in Gaza. That would go against the "rules" of blockades

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by DangerDeath
If anyone boarded my ship with weapons and uninvited I would have "attacked" them too. Now, the question is who is the attacker in the first place?

The problem is that this could have been an intentional provocation and it worked. This will give a very strong excuse to Israeli enemies to retaliate. And IDF fell for this one just like that

I doubt that anyone on the ship would be stupid enough not to realize what could and would happen if they attacked Israel commandos boarding the ship. Anyone with good sense knows that if you are a civilian, armed with only metal poles (where did they get all those poles?), chairs and knives (supposedly) and a military unit is boarding your ship, you stand down unless you want blood (your's) to be spilled).

You are very well right that this could have been an intentional provocation. But by whom? Israel certainly botched this; they did not send in enough commandos in the first place to reasonably control the situation. That is a horrible, if not purposeful (on someone's part) mistake. However, it should be very clear from the footage and reports coming out that the "humanitarians" are in no way innocent and have an equal amount of blood on their hands.

I think as the facts come out, outrage (except for the most frothing at the mouth Israel haters) will lessen.

Dont you think the same could be true for Israel commandos? They know any attacks will be criticised internationally and be condemned.. Do you think they would have done it and ready to face their stone pelting from the whole world?

From this whole situation the Palestinians were the ones to gain advantage. For Israel this is a bad thing. I dont think they would have attacked those flotilla guys unnecessarily.

Please check out this video.

www.youtube.com...

Oh those poor Palestinians who are starving in Gaza, here is the proof (taken from paltoday so no bias unless they hate their own people):











[edit on 31-5-2010 by SoulofBlack]

Originally posted by ElijahWan

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if: (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

Seems Israel blocking this ship is doing JUST that no? They are preventing this ship from getting there for the sole purpose of denying it other objects essential for its survival. (Building materials, medicine, ect ect)

No. They did not block this shipment. They kept it from breaking the blockade.

It's being transported over land once it is inspected now that it is in the proper port. Not blocked.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

You believe the IDF saying the passengers had guns? Even after the story changed 4 times, getting progressively worse?

News always changes.. as the story is wound together. 7 Israeli's were shot, I find it hard to believe 7 cases of friendly fire..

And as I've stated Israel has let ships with Humanitarian aid enter Gaza.. why attack one flotilla (especially a Turkish one.. Israel and Turkey are usually on good terms with each-other) ..

I'm not saying Israel was "defending" themselves.. in all likelihood Israel tried to board the boat and the people on board refused, Israel pulls their guns, they pull their guns, and a battle ensues.

I don't believe for a second that they entered the boat and shot indiscriminately for little reason.. I know that's what some people on the thread want to hear.. but I'm a realist, I look at things objectively.

Can you please be kind to direct me to a credible source which says that 7 Israeli's were shot abord a ship who were also carrying a couple of European members of Parliament!

Thanks in advance!

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Dude...Seriously....How are they NOT defending themselves...Armed soldiers are assaulting their ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS....

Originally posted by SoulofBlack
Oh those poor Palestinians who are starving in Gaza, here is the proof (taken from paltoday so no bias unless they hate their own people):











[edit on 31-5-2010 by SoulofBlack]

Perhaps you could show me how those pictures prove that there is sufficient food in Gaza to feed all those who are being oppressed? Good luck... Because these pictures seem MUCH more accurate.


[edit on 5/31/10 by ElijahWan]

reply to post by Foppezao


Israel has already stated that the goods would not go through, because they included cement. Somehow that is an illegal item.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
If you were looking objectively you would have realized that Turkish officials checked the Flotilla before it left.

So what?

Insert the favorite country of your choice into this article. Why should they take the word of any other country that an ship aiding who they perceive to be there enemy is free-and-clear of any illicit cargo?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by DangerDeath
If anyone boarded my ship with weapons and uninvited I would have "attacked" them too. Now, the question is who is the attacker in the first place?

The problem is that this could have been an intentional provocation and it worked. This will give a very strong excuse to Israeli enemies to retaliate. And IDF fell for this one just like that

I doubt that anyone on the ship would be stupid enough not to realize what could and would happen if they attacked Israel commandos boarding the ship. Anyone with good sense knows that if you are a civilian, armed with only metal poles (where did they get all those poles?), chairs and knives (supposedly) and a military unit is boarding your ship, you stand down unless you want blood (your's) to be spilled).

You are very well right that this could have been an intentional provocation. But by whom? Israel certainly botched this; they did not send in enough commandos in the first place to reasonably control the situation. That is a horrible, if not purposeful (on someone's part) mistake. However, it should be very clear from the footage and reports coming out that the "humanitarians" are in no way innocent and have an equal amount of blood on their hands.

I think as the facts come out, outrage (except for the most frothing at the mouth Israel haters) will lessen.

By Turkey.

The ship was Turkish. It was intercepted in international waters. VERY BAD TIMING AND PLACING on the Israeli side. They seem to have lost their nerves.

There are people who are not afraid of dying. It has been proven for years now (I only talk about all those suicide bombers). Many people engulfed in emotions will not fear death. Many ideologically indoctrinated people will too not fear dying for their cause. This has been used as a weapon from beginning of times.

In my opinion, Turkey has successfully provoked Israel, and Israel can not justify its actions. This will be enough for Turkey and its allies for as a starting point.

Turkey also accused Israel for the attack on its base last night.

www.sott.net...

Kurdish PKK (Mossad) rocket attack kills six at Turkish navy base

This insinuation speaks enough itself.

Technically, this is war.

While we all expect something to happen between Israel and Iran, Turkey comes to the scene through a backdoor.

Very interesting and unexpected development.

Add to this recent Turkey-Iran uranium deal...