Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

I don't think Israel subscribes to the international treaty anyway. They run with their own set of rules.

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
reply to post by makeitso

 

All well and good.
EXCEPT!

The "Suspected" vessel was STILL IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS and had not yet even approached the so-call blockade.

The title of the document is "San Remo Manual on International Law applicable to armed conflicts at sea".

It obviously is not about National armed conflicts within costal/territorial water. The law clearly is discussing and provides for the ships to be boarded in International Water.

Furthermore, as has been previously stated, the aid ships had ALL been searched and their passengers and cargeo vetted by Turkish authorities BEFORE they set sail.
Sorry, but we can read the law too!

Israel is the controlling authority for entrance to Gaza as per the Oslo Accords as I linked, not Turkey. Where does a law state that cargo is ok to break a legal blockade just because Turkey inspected it?

Can you quote that law?



[edit on 5/31/10 by makeitso]

reply to post by Maxmars


With all due respect, you aren't making any sense. You are trying hard to justify the murder of humanitarian pacifists, neutral ones at that. Using big words and pseudo-law won't get your point across as much as saying it without mincing words.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by TSawyer]

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Siezing control of a private vessel on the high seas, in international waters, by use of force. Assulting the crew and passengers of said vessel to secure such control, up to an including the use of deadly force. Removing the cargo of said vessel without permission (even if you "promise" to deliver to its intended recipient) while holding the passengers and crew of said vessel in confinement, against their will...

That pretty much sums up a decent definition of "Piracy" to me!

Well, disregarding the political component necessary for piracy, your point would be correct, if the perpetrators were not operating under the authority of a national military force. At that point it is considered military aggression, but considering it as military aggression against who? Turkey? It seems out of place in this theater; but I have been wrong before, and I know that it is patently disingenuous to ignore the way this went down. Brutality is not an easy thing to forgive.

My question is why not wait? What did they think, that this vessel was going to offload troops? It is too over the top to be considered anything less than some desperate attempt... but who's, and to what end?

Whatever this is , whoever's fault it is i think WorldWar3 is very near and the way is paved for it. Unless there is some miracle war is going to start and maybe the casualties in this WW3 will be greater than the casualties of all the major wars put together. If nukes are going to be used then one can only imagine how many will remain. We have enough nukes to destroy Earth more than once. Several times i guess.
Hope that the war doesnt start.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Not much to misconstrue here my friend.

Unarmed pleasure craft with humanitarian aide on board, staffed by various peace activists and political activists were assaulted militarily on the high seas by the Navy of the Nation that is blockading the nation the aide was to be delivered too.

No accidental firings of torpedoes here or suicide bombers or mistaken identities just a criminal regime intent on blockading a rival whose land it covets.

When in doubt there is no doubt.

By the way you have to count all the indigenous peoples slaughtered by the Capitalist/Christian West in colonizing most of the world, if you want a true Communist versus Capitalist body count.

Well then, I see your point. That makes it entirely acceptable to run wild with half the facts or no facts at all, and knee-jerk a judgment in the situation. What was I thinking, insisting on hearing facts and verifications first? I don't know what came over me, coming in to counter such unfounded conclusions.

I stand corrected. Carry on, then.

It's always a good thing as well to confound and confuse capitalism and christianity in all their myriad forms, too. Might want to go ahead and add a dollop of Judaism to the mix too, in order to make sure it rises. Just lump 'em in together and mix well, I'm sure one can draw forth whatever conclusions one wishes from that. As I said, carry on, then.

reply to post by makeitso


Except the blockade is illegal, and not recognised internationally ... To therefore use international law regarding LAWFUL blockades to justify ILLEGALLY boarding a ship, and justify it under an ILLEGAL blockade is disingenuous indeed



[edit on 31/5/2010 by Dagar]

The difference in this event and true Piracy is that Israel has made it VERY public knowledge that it was going to intercept the flotilla. This event was one that we could see coming. Israel made it known what it would do and it followed-through and now folks act surprised. Im not saying oits right or wrong, but i am saying that it was completely telegraphed and when Israel says something they usually follow through with it. Now let the fall-out begin.

Im waiting for Hamas or Hizbollah to do something......

[edit on 31-5-2010 by princeofpeace]

I am dismayed at the content of the post by forum moderator Maxmars. I hope this characterization of the flotilla's travellers doesn't reflect ATS'management view of the situation:

Originally posted by Maxmars on 5/31/2010 @ 02:17 PM

the pretentious holier-than-thou activists who dared them to do so by ignoring the warning this would happen?

these uppity hippes (sic)

Thank you ProtoplasmicTraveler for your clear and unbiased expressions of what has and is occurring in this incident. You have my deepest respect.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler posted on 5/31/2010 @ 12:48 PM

These people were trying to deliver food and medicine to straving men, women and children suffering a years long cruel and illegal blockade.

The purposed of the flotilla was to deliver that aide.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler posted on 5/31/2010 @ 01:15 PM

How self important and absorbed can a person be?

Left and right are passages.

Since when did feeding the starving become an extremist issue?

How about it's about the starving people in Gaza and not the Zionist idealouges, or Israel.

The purpose of the aide was to feed the hungry and bring medicine to the sick.

Gaza is the most densely populated places on earth, with one of the lowest per capita annual incomes on the planet, under a tightly controlled military blockade to prevent if from trading for vital supplies.

How in the heck could there not be people there who would benefit from this aide.

In fact almost every city and town in the world would benefit from such aide.

Do you actually believe anyone believes your 'previously' stated 'facts' which read more like pure delusion?

[edit on 5/31/2010 by dubiousone]

reply to post by princeofpeace


That's like me saying I am going to kill an old woman next week five hundred times. Because I said it five hundred times, that would make it less atrocious and less criminal? I question you, and others who support the of murder humanitarians' logic. Chanting to the world that you are going to commit a crime does not make it less of a crime because you chant it repeatedly and loud. It is not a friendly warning, it is an announcement of criminal intent and they should have been put down had we knew they weren't bluffing about committing murder. Nobody expected them to be so stupid to actually commit murder in public. We know they do it in the confinements of their apartheid but nobody expected them to be so stupid in public. Again, just because you chant that you are going to kill people in international seas and commit piracy doesn't make it less of a an atrocious inhumane crime.

"I killed an old woman, but I warned her five hundred times. She should have just allowed me to kill her the first time."

[edit on 31-5-2010 by TSawyer]

Haven't the Jews learned a thing or two from the last time they got wiped off the map? They are just asking for it nowadays!

Here's a good one,

Figures. Obama’s Terrorist Pal Bill Ayers & Top Bundler Jodie Evans Are Top Activists With Gaza Flotilla Group
Posted by Jim Hoft on Monday, May 31, 2010, 12:43 PM

Barack Obama’s close family friends, terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, and top campaign bundler Jodie Evans from Code Pink are top activists with the Gaza flotilla group that attacked the IDF today.

gatewaypundit.firstthings.com...

Aaron Klein, Jerusalem bureau chief for World Net Daily, reports from New York:

The group behind the Gaza flotilla that engaged in deadly clashes with Israeli commandoes today counts among its top activists Weather Underground terrorist founders William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn as well as Jodie Evans, the leader of the radical activist organization Code Pink.

Ayers and Dohrn were close associates for years with President Obama, while Evans was a fundraiser and financial bundler for Obama’s presidential campaign.

Earlier today, Israeli navy commandos raided the six-ship flotilla, encountering heavy resistance and live fire from the activists. Nine activists were killed and dozens of others were reportedly injured, as were several of the Israeli commandoes.

The flotilla was organized by the Free Gaza Movement, a coalition of leftist human rights activists and pro-Palestinian groups engaged in attempts to break a blockade imposed by Israel on the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.

Ayers, Dohrn and Evans’ Code Pink have led several recent Free Gaza Movement initiatives, including attempted marches into the Gaza Strip. Dorhn was in the Middle East just last month on behalf of the movement.

[edit on 053131p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Dagar
reply to post by makeitso

 

Except the blockade is illegal, and not recognised internationally ... To therefore use international law regarding LAWFUL blockades to justify ILLEGALLY boarding a ship, and justify it under an ILLEGAL blockade is disingenuous indeed

Except that it is not an illegal blockade, nor was the boarding illegal, as I have shown, with links and quotes to the documentation and appilicable law.

Does the air force shoot planes out of the sky everytime they fly off-course, across the border, or in restricted airspace?

If Israel really feared there was "contrabond" aboard the ships, why not surround them and escort them to port? If the ships tried to bolt once out of international waters, then deal with it. Attacking unarmed people in international waters is akin to terrorism.

Originally posted by TSawyer
reply to post by Maxmars

 

With all due respect, you aren't making any sense. You are trying hard to justify the murder of humanitarian pacifists, neutral ones at that.

I'm sorry for seeming unclear. I don't justify murder. I also don't blithely accept that everyone on this ship was necessarily a humanitarian pacifist, or a terrorist supporter.

I'm saying that we are not likely to be in possession of all the facts, and I prefer, once the offense is committed, to let those who lie hang themselves with their own fabrications. When this matter is investigated, it will take one of two qualities to reconcile; 1) The resignation of pride and prejudice, or 2) blind faith.

What I am trying to say is those who writhe in details regarding the fact that these people have historically done each other wrong, and bear lengthy lists of grievances against each other does not add to our understanding of to event.... yet.

We cannot justify or malign the actions of anyone, until we know what happened. Right now we have a good idea... I think it's just not good enough.

Also, you have to bear in mind, I don't 'isolate' these events from the word. To me this isn't about Israel, Palestine, or any one people. It's about a question...

Why would they have to do a commando-style raid to deal with this situation?

I don't think it makes sense if it is, as some say, a simple matter of contraband. Heavy-handed this like this is more akin to a different character of action.... maybe if we get to speak with the 'survivors'. What story will they tell?

Some see this as a defense of Israel, I see it as a need to be certain of who is pulling the strings.

I just heard of The Situation Room on CNN that the protesters on the boats have been taken to various "detention centers" and "prisons" that were setup before hand. Explain to me why Israel would setup "detention centers" for these humanitarians if they had no intention of detaining them in the first place?

I'm glad to see the MSM is covering BOTH angles of this clash though, atleast CNN sure is.

reply to post by makeitso


The UN disagrees with you.

reply to post by Silcone Synapse

Do not tell me you would not pick up whatever you could to defend yourself in a similar situation-or would you just lie down?

To be honest, i wouldn't be confronting a force I know I can't defeat.

Are you telling me that these aid workers had no other avenue to get their goods to Gaza?

I am not saying that what Israel is doing is right, but there is no doubt that these aid workers knew they were going to be confronted and was looking for that confrontation.

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by makeitso

 

The UN disagrees with you.

The U.N. does not disagree with me.

I did not sign the Oslo Accords, neither did I write the International Law I linked to.

What specific law is the U.N. quoting?

Can you provide a link to it?


[edit on 5/31/10 by makeitso]

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Barack Obama’s close family friends, terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, and top campaign bundler Jodie Evans from Code Pink are top activists with the Gaza flotilla group that attacked the IDF today.

Earlier today, Israeli navy commandos raided the six-ship flotilla, encountering heavy resistance and live fire from the activists. Nine activists were killed and dozens of others were reportedly injured, as were several of the Israeli commandoes.

So, finally, we arrive at the truth.

Flotilla ATTACKED THE IDF.

...live fire from the activists.

Amazing.