We, ATS Members, Must Focus On Politics

Ok , you got me

I will begin paying more attention to ATS Politics.

This right here is what got me

"The idea of "deny ignorance" isn't a goal that ATS hopes to accomplish. Instead, it's a challenge. A call to all those who come here to aspire to a higher state of awareness through informed discussion and debate. "

That's cool. It reminds me of the sentiment expressed in the song Break by a band called Three Days Grace:
The song lyric "if you can't stand the way this place is then take yourself to higher places"

Full chorus

Break away from everybody, break away from everything thing, if you can't stand the way this place is then take yourself to higher places.

Sorry that did not embed. Link instead. www.youtube.com...-main-area






[edit on 1-3-2010 by dragonsmusic]

My two cents, since you asked for it....

1) There is desperation for new leadership, an uncorrupted kind, the kind that is beholden to nobody but the people... this is exactly the same thing our Founding Fathers wanted and accomplished, albeit a brief period of time. What we're talking about here is either continuing where they left off or starting over. IMO, we don't need to start over, but there are lots of things that need to be "un-done". This would be a good starting place is for members here to start looking at every dumb, ridiculous law that clearly only supports the corporatocracy or special interests and compile a list of the ones that should be stricken from the books or re-written to benefit everyone, not just one group. That is called socialism and it's been happening under our noses for decades by both Republicans and Democrats; I don't think I need to spell out the evidence for it, but if so, I'll be happy to oblige.

2) The Constitution - not an outdated document but a FORMULA for FREEDOM to work, which it seems nobody quite understands but spouts off knowledge of it like they wrote it. When you balance your checkbook, do you say that addition and subtraction are outdated? Why not? There has to be a better way to add or subtract? NO! It is a FORMULA that always holds true no matter how you use it. This is how the Constitution was originally intended, not to be abused by our "representatives", but nothing is perfect, especially people. Still, we should give the Founding Fathers credit because they spent the time to figure it out. They did exactly what we're doing here today - argued, debated, fought and cried, but for the sake of freedom and the future generations of this country, not to have a prize.

3) We all know that "something" needs to happen... but can anyone clearly identify what that is? New representatives? A new government? New laws? We spend too much time arguing about opinion instead of looking at examples of what actually works through proven demonstration to the masses and then evaluate WHAT can be improved on, then come to a consensus of HOW things can be improved; how to achieve the sought after improvements. All human beings on this planet exhibit so many similar behaviors individually and in social settings and much knowledge has been gained in understanding this, but it has been used for propaganda instead of building upon the positive qualities of people to forward HUMAN progress. There are definitely forces at work beyond what we know (ie - TPTB), but just like science, we can not work to change those forces just yet until we understand them, and that can not happen until we reveal the inner workings of what we DO know now.

4) People in this country and all over the world are suffering - floating around with no compass or direction, swirling through the chaos just trying to stay alive at the surface; treading water to make ends meet. What is REALLY needed is SOMEONE who can truly polarize these feelings that people have and steer them in the direction we all need to be heading. Over 80% of the country has expressed their outrage at our government, forget the bills and laws for a second, I'm talking about generalized anger towards the childish behavior of our government, elected or otherwise, and the utter arrogance. People are fed up with how little our voices are heard, but nobody knows any other way to get someone to listen. The whispers of revolution speak loudly of this.

5) Our two-party representative system has been usurped by technology. With today's technology, everyone could have a "voice" in a majority rule system with our "representatives" doing NOTHING more than interpreting the law as the Constitution and our newly-written laws (see #1) reflect. This is apparent with cell phones, house phones, cable and satellite, internet, etc. You could easily do this at the city, state, county and federal level to give everyone a voice on every vote and make it rock-solid.

Namaste

reply to post by Donny 4 million


We need more members stepping up and telling these people they need to lead by example. I used to defend this site, told people on here I didn't think the top was corrupt, said I didn't think disinfo agents were here etc. However, after getting the shaft on numerous occassions, and seeing how SO and the others don't care, I'm washing my hands. The problem is, there are too many brown nosers and yes men to shake a stick at, so the voice of reason will be drowned out.

reply to post by haterproof

So your issue is with capitalism and SO just a convenient vehicle for thou bully pulpit.

Let me show you an excerpt of the proposed thread I never posted because I thought it would do more harm than good:

Now I must address the selective readers and people who will claim this thread is a rant, it isn’t. The premise of the thread is very simple: we grovel and R-E-S-P-E-C-T those who have harmed us in ways we can’t imagine, yet we CHEER, GLOAT, DISRESPECT and ENCOURAGE the fighting between the average American citizen. We agree and never question those who are above us, and instead, heap upon them praise after praise even though they may be part of the problem.

Ponder that for a bit then come back.

Thanks for clarifying the source of your vitriol.

See above, and the source of my "vitriol", if we can even call it that, is much deeper than capitalism. However, as it pertains to SO, the mods, admins, etc, I've been clear about it.




[edit on 1-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

Well, to me it just looks like in the first thread he said stop attacking each other personally. Keep it political and argue the facts.

Then.....in this thread i basically got "Hey, I didn't say don't talke about politics, I just said stop attacking others on a personal level"

Pretty cut and dry to me, then again. I think I might be drunk offone too many becks and I know the 420 fairy has been fluttering through here all night so I maybe completely missing what you guys have a problem with.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by kleverone]

reply to post by Donny 4 million


I know that SO is the owner operator of this site, but i dont think it is up to him to prose a solution to this problem. I think for it to be a fair and balanced plan of action it needs to come from the members themselves. If we as a whole can take an agreed plan of action against trolls, hacks and other problem posters it would hold more weight. With that approach how could you claim bias if it was a full assault of the members of ATS?

As for the calling to be more politicaly minded, as a whole its something every one can work on and should. Be they US residents or people of other nationalities. We here at ATS are a global community we do not need to focus souly on American politics. So to my brothers and sisters out there please bring all politcal talk to this forum.

like i said before, To be able to fight your enemy best first you must know your enemy and how better to know them then to listen and study there beleifs?

just my .02cents once again

thank you good day/night depending on your location in this universe

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Here is the twisted logic that people of your ilk relish. People like you believe that if someone speaks out, that he or she has no knowledge or that they don’t want to be here. I do have a clue about how much it costs to run a website of this magnitude. I understand money was spent not just on software, code heads, promotions and advertisements but also on legal fees to set the company up and to write the T&C and other legal jargon. So you’ve failed and I’ll show you again how you’ll continue to fail

So you know how much it costs to run yet you have a go at them for trying to make money to run it, yet you accuse me of failing? Dear me youi're running low on arguments.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You telll me if I don’t like it to leave? Well if you or SO don’t like AMERICA why don’t YOU leave?

Because this is a website that has multiple nationalities, are you saying it's a USA only website? What a strange idea.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Well say it.

Again a strange comment when i continue in the same post you replied to, to post my problems with ATS. Seriously there is talk of trolling and then you post this.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Why try to PIMP the users by giving them a false sense of security or value?

I was doing no such thing and once again i pointed out the problems i think are clear, so how was i giving anyone a false sense of security? It seems anyone who can simultaneously support and then offer constructive criticism is the enemy. You're either for or against it seems according to your view.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
What SO is doing is no different from what TPTB do when it comes to voting, which is, give the masses and idea, or something to strive for, allow them to think they have power, direct them towards the agenda and sit back as the dough piles up. Friend, this is Hegelian Dialectic. I'd prefer if he came out and stated his intentions not conceal it under some do-gooder speech.

This goes to motivation. I see ATS owners trying to make money while also giving us a decent forum for free speech. You see them as only wanting money, or at least that's how your posts come across. Remember that the masses are not on ATS, it is a small website compared to the masses and when it comes to voting it is far easier for peopel to simply stop using a website than it is for them to use real political capital and vote.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I agree. I’ve been attacked, in the other thread SO made even, and I also directed mods to a very disrespectful remark from another member directed to people of African/African American backgrounds. They did absolutely nothing even though a mod posted two minutes after the remark was made, and after another mod said they saw it. So from here on out, I’m not even worried about the mods. They are simply avatars, names and icons I can’t ignore because the function to ignore them was not coded into the site.

Hang on a second, you accused me of not mentioning my problems with ATS and then you agree with me? Do you click reply before finishing reading a post and then go through it, bit by bit and not correct your previous statements? Seriously man/woman this is just ridiculous.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
We had a drug forum what happened? Many threads there pertained to the governments involvement with drug distribution. However, if you want threads about smoking the best this, or injecting the best that, no way.

No i do not want threads about such things, i would appreciate it if a thread could discuss health benefits of drugs (pain relief) and the rights of peopel to use drugs without it being locked down when someone mentions personal use. The post should be deleted, not the thread. ATS deemed this to much hassle, which seems an odd business model.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Seem bias? Seem? LOL! Listen, go back and read SO’s other thread, the one about trolls and political hacks, and make sure you read my responses, as I give clear examples of mod bias and the reason why ATS is going down the toilet. However, guess what I was told? “If you don’t like it leave.” Sound familiar, buddy?

I have read your responses, they were rude and condescending and i understand why they were ignored. When i talk about bias i mean political bias, or even when a subject is distastful it is ignored and users can run rampant insulting the OP of a thread.

That needs to stop after SO's thread about trolling.

I'm afraid that if I voiced my real opinion on how the U.S. should be run and what kind of political ideology I'd like to see, I'd be banned. I think I'll stay out of it like I already do.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Bill I'm more than happy to participate in any discussion including politics. As for your "I'm pissed thread" your point surrounding courteous behavior is well taken. In this thread you appear to be getting to the heart of the matter, and I paraphrase, which is people’s fanatical beliefs which has manifested itself within topics that are political. All discussions have become so polarized that neither side is willing to believe anything the other side says or proves. I would like to see you outline your conspiracy further as I'm in initial agreement.

So I have to have to ask is ATS really pioneering a different approach to discussion about politics, or is it simply serving the conspiracy's purpose. I'm not so sure it can be done through the power of suggestion alone.

I have the following suggestions for the site, and I'm open to discussion about changing some of these as well:
1.) Thread synopsis' which outline points for and against peoples takes on topics. If you want a site that is more interesting and can really take the peoples pulse on topics, I would start here. Currently it seems we just have 2 sides unwilling to budge so it would be interesting to see votes for and against proposed theories.
2.) Make it a rule for everyone proposing a theory or a position that they include points that would make them change their mind on a topic. This might assist in cutting out the personal attacks. It might also help in identifying your proposed conspiracy for exactly what it is. Hopefully that would spill over into the mainstream media as well.
3.) Action let's not just talk about this, let's do it.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

Let me show you an excerpt of the proposed thread I never posted because I thought it would do more harm than good:

Now I must address the selective readers and people who will claim this thread is a rant, it isn’t. The premise of the thread is very simple: we grovel and R-E-S-P-E-C-T those who have harmed us in ways we can’t imagine, yet we CHEER, GLOAT, DISRESPECT and ENCOURAGE the fighting between the average American citizen. We agree and never question those who are above us, and instead, heap upon them praise after praise even though they may be part of the problem.

Ponder that for a bit then come back.

Sounds like a fine, interesting, and relevant premise for a thread. And it seems very much along the lines that SO and staff seem to be encouraging. Why would you think it would do more harm than good?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

So you know how much it costs to run yet you have a go at them for trying to make money to run it, yet you accuse me of failing? Dear me youi're running low on arguments.

You’re another selective reader. The problem is not making money. This site is a business first, and I understand this completely. However, what I am not in agreement with, and will never be in agreement with, is trying to get us to trumpet the ATS cause under some warped ideology that will financially benefit the owners of ATS. If you want money, say so. If you want donations, say so. However, don’t type up some warped thread (most likely a distorted version of my proposed thread) and try to one up the people. And yes you are failing.

Because this is a website that has multiple nationalities, are you saying it's a USA only website? What a strange idea.

You aren’t making any sense and don’t understand logic. You told me that if I didn’t like it to leave the website, yet I’m telling you that if you, or SO don’t like the way this country is run that YOU should leave. SO was telling us to speak out about how the country is run correct? So if I should leave this website for questioning, you and SO should leave America and not question anything. Sound fair to you?

Again a strange comment when i continue in the same post you replied to, to post my problems with ATS. Seriously there is talk of trolling and then you post this.

This isn’t trolling. I’m well within the confines of ATS T&C, and you simply don’t understand what was said. In fact, when I said, “Well say it.” I wasn’t even talking about you.

I was doing no such thing and once again i pointed out the problems i think are clear, so how was i giving anyone a false sense of security? It seems anyone who can simultaneously support and then offer constructive criticism is the enemy. You're either for or against it seems according to your view.

I’m not talking about you. I made it very clear who the pimp was. Are you paying attention, selective reading or are you tired?

This goes to motivation. I see ATS owners trying to make money while also giving us a decent forum for free speech. You see them as only wanting money, or at least that's how your posts come across. Remember that the masses are not on ATS, it is a small website compared to the masses and when it comes to voting it is far easier for peopel to simply stop using a website than it is for them to use real political capital and vote.

Listen, this is a business first. To be more specific, it is a business that caters to a specific demographic who readily accepts niche content. We don’t have free speech, we have limited speech and are bound by the T&C. In addition, staff interpretation often curtails our so-called freedom, and users like yourself, who obviously don’t understand the thoughts being conveyed, and instead butcher the context and premise, are simply salt to the wound.

Hang on a second, you accused me of not mentioning my problems with ATS and then you agree with me? Do you click reply before finishing reading a post and then go through it, bit by bit and not correct your previous statements? Seriously man/woman this is just ridiculous.

OK, it is clear as day you’re a selective reader. When did I say you didn’t state your problems? Let me make this perfectly clear to you because you missed the point. This is why you need to stop quoting me and find some other way to communicate because you’re out of tune right now:

I have no issue with ATS trying to crank out a little more money for themselves because this website is a full time project. Anyone who has ever run web servers knows that (yeah i've run them and set them up so i know). I am sure ATS now makes a good deal of money and i can't blame the owners for trying to increase revenue. Let's be fair, they do try and put more into the website to make it better and it is a good place for discussion.

So what is the main idea that you attempted to convey in this magnificent piece? You’re trying to convey the idea that you see no problem in making some extra cash and say they put in work so the site is a better place for discussion. I then tell you the following which you COMPLETELY butchered and miscounstrued:

Well say it. Why try to PIMP the users by giving them a false sense of security or value? What SO is doing is no different from what TPTB do when it comes to voting, which is, give the masses and idea, or something to strive for, allow them to think they have power, direct them towards the agenda and sit back as the dough piles up. Friend, this is Hegelian Dialectic. I'd prefer if he came out and stated his intentions not conceal it under some do-gooder speech.

Well say it? Say what? Say you’re doing it for the money and tell the truth as to why you want members to follow this new campaign and parrot the “Deny Ignorance” solagan that is what. I then go on to tell you that what SO is doing, not YOU, is no different from what TPTB do. I then go on to tell YOU that I prefer if HE came out and stated his intentions and not conceal it. In other words “say it.” Say what? Say you’re doing it for the bucks, or that you need donations, etc.

No i do not want threads about such things, i would appreciate it if a thread could discuss health benefits of drugs (pain relief) and the rights of peopel to use drugs without it being locked down when someone mentions personal use. The post should be deleted, not the thread. ATS deemed this to much hassle, which seems an odd business model.

This response, the one I’m replying to, is enough reason to NEVER have a forum about drugs.

I have read your responses, they were rude and condescending and i understand why they were ignored. When i talk about bias i mean political bias, or even when a subject is distastful it is ignored and users can run rampant insulting the OP of a thread.

You can say they were rude and condescending till the sun goes down, till Jesus comes back, till UFO disclosure happens and till zeusadam gets his horses, back. It makes me no difference. I’m going to call it how it is, right down the middle, and if you and other members feel guilty or want to shun me for doing it I’m cool with it.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Why? Why should we focus on getting our faces slapped, over and over and over?

Why should we focus on politics when our own senators and representatives received 99% - NINETY-NINE Per Cent of all emails, telecons, mail and misc. correspondance telling them "NO" to the TARP (Fall 2008) and they voted "YES" anyway? Obama AND McCain included!

Why should we focus when we no longer have a choice of the lesser of two evils? Now, the evils have all hit rock bottom! There is no LESSER anymore!

Why? Look, THIS insanity is going to go down right in front of our eyes, no matter what we say! www.msnbc.msn.com...

Under the plan, the consumer agency, while housed in the Fed, would have autonomous authority to write consumer regulations.
...
Still, a Fed-housed consumer entity would fall short of President Barack Obama's initial demand for a stand-alone Consumer Financial Protection Agency that would replace the consumer oversight now assigned to bank regulators.

Why? With a healthcare reform bill that will automatically charge our bank accounts, and gives the IRS the responsibility of arresting us for not being able to pay our ($3,000 for my spouse and me) medical insurance when we have no job BECAUSE the SAME crooked medical insurance company TOLD local employers WHOM to CAN because said employees cost the medical insurance too much. (Local businessmen even TOLD Chet Edwards such in person!)

Why? When the Federal Reserve is unaccountable?

Why? When OUR tax dollars go to the pockets of the filthy rich ONLY?

Why? Wait - I figured it out! I figured out WHY!

Because we are friggin' MASOCHISTS!

Focus on Politics, get slapped over and over and OVER!



[edit on 1/3/2010 by Trexter Ziam]

reply to post by haterproof


Because it doesn't paint ATS staff in a positive light. It paints ATS staff as part of the problem and it isn't some "Nazi Modding" or "All ATS staff" are evil thread. I provided three or four threads that showed division, identified the problem, provided solutions, and showed them how if things would not change, division would happen.

I sent them the rough draft for the proposed thread, got a couple of replies, and was told that everyone had saw it. Shortly after, maybe five days, SO makes his great troll thread. Now, after that thread, I see this thread. Again, some of the same concepts that I presented are in each of his threads, and coupled with the timing, it's hard for me to chalk it to coincidence.

Originally posted by crimsongod21
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

I know that SO is the owner operator of this site, but i dont think it is up to him to prose a solution to this problem. I think for it to be a fair and balanced plan of action it needs to come from the members themselves. If we as a whole can take an agreed plan of action against trolls, hacks and other problem posters it would hold more weight. With that approach how could you claim bias if it was a full assault of the members of ATS?

As for the calling to be more politicaly minded, as a whole its something every one can work on and should. Be they US residents or people of other nationalities. We here at ATS are a global community we do not need to focus souly on American politics. So to my brothers and sisters out there please bring all politcal talk to this forum.

like i said before, To be able to fight your enemy best first you must know your enemy and how better to know them then to listen and study there beleifs?

just my .02cents once again

thank you good day/night depending on your location in this universe

Fair enough
I do politics almost exclusively.

I see the OP more socialistic in his approach than democratic.
That's OK cause he owns this site. He was not elected by the membership you see.
I am thrilled to be a member. I learn every post. The staff does cart wheels to keep it real.
The deal for me is if you want to think that denying ignorance is a way to a Nation soul
you best think twice.

I would HATE to pimp my thread on one of the Overlord's threads, but it seems to be very relevant to this discussion.

EMPIRE, maybe especially for you and others that feel that members here do not try to see ALL sides of an issue.

I try to see my own misconceptions and problems with my viewpoint, so I try to see everyone's.

Here is the thread-ATS Members Political Platform?

It is a walk down an attempt to put together a political platform that everyone here on ATS can agree to. Of course it means nothing really, but it helps us to see everyone's point of view and could actually help with the problems we face.

Anyway, sorry OP for the spam.

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


If you have or will ever have children you will know why.
Trust me.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You’re another selective reader. The problem is not making money. This site is a business first, and I understand this completely. However, what I am not in agreement with, and will never be in agreement with, is trying to get us to trumpet the ATS cause under some warped ideology that will financially benefit the owners of ATS. If you want money, say so. If you want donations, say so. However, don’t type up some warped thread (most likely a distorted version of my proposed thread) and try to one up the people. And yes you are failing.

Again this comes down to perception of motivation. Some people think they are doing their best for the users while also making money, others such as yourself see it as money only and the users as an afterthought. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You aren’t making any sense and don’t understand logic. You told me that if I didn’t like it to leave the website, yet I’m telling you that if you, or SO don’t like the way this country is run that YOU should leave. SO was telling us to speak out about how the country is run correct? So if I should leave this website for questioning, you and SO should leave America and not question anything. Sound fair to you?

Ok lets break this one down. I am saying if you don't like this website then leave it yes absolutely, or change it, but you seem unable to change things without being insulting.

You then say myself and SO should leave the USA if we do not like it, the problem with this is that i am not in the USA. It seems illogical telling me to leave a country i am not a part of and yet you accuse me of failing in logic. SO was not telling us to leave the website for questioning, only to leave if you have nothing constructive to say. I can understand why people would ask you to leave when you just insult. You may think your ideas are being presented in a decent manner but honestly they just seem like the ramblings of a teenager. Step back and offer them up in a decent way. Others have said you may have a point and should starta thread about it, so please do and post me a message when you do. Just make sure you try and avoid the hostile tones.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
This isn’t trolling. I’m well within the confines of ATS T&C, and you simply don’t understand what was said. In fact, when I said, “Well say it.” I wasn’t even talking about you.

Yeah it gets confusing when you quote me and then say "well say it", you can understand the confusio on that surely? Again a problem with how you communicate.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I’m not talking about you. I made it very clear who the pimp was. Are you paying attention, selective reading or are you tired?

You quoted me and then replied without naming someone within your text, an easy mistake of mine.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Listen, this is a business first. To be more specific, it is a business that caters to a specific demographic who readily accepts niche content. We don’t have free speech, we have limited speech and are bound by the T&C. In addition, staff interpretation often curtails our so-called freedom, and users like yourself, who obviously don’t understand the thoughts being conveyed, and instead butcher the context and premise, are simply salt to the wound.

Users such as myself struggle when someone quotes them directly, replies to them directly and then accuses them of butchering content. Seriously now calm down and make a thread about the issues which we can reply to. Please contact me if you decide to make the thread.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
OK, it is clear as day you’re a selective reader. When did I say you didn’t state your problems? Let me make this perfectly clear to you because you missed the point. This is why you need to stop quoting me and find some other way to communicate because you’re out of tune right now:

You said "well say it" in direct response to my post and you quoted me just before you typed those words. Talk about selective reading all you like, you are not putting fourth your argument very well. How about i quote what you did to make it easier for you to understand how you confused me.

Originally posted by Imaginaryreality1984[/]
I have no issue with ATS trying to crank out a little more money for themselves because this website is a full time project. Anyone who has ever run web servers knows that (yeah i've run them and set them up so i know). I am sure ATS now makes a good deal of money and i can't blame the owners for trying to increase revenue. Let's be fair, they do try and put more into the website to make it better and it is a good place for discussion.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Well say it. Why try to PIMP the users by giving them a false sense of security or value?

Then you say

Originally posted by EMPIRE
In fact, when I said, “Well say it.” I wasn’t even talking about you.

Very, very confusing.

Meh i'm just not bothering with you after this utterly fractured way you respond to someone.