Tithing..... And the scum that rob God...

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

So that cant be used in a debate where scripture is being applied.

Who says so ? How do you know it wasn't inspired by god ?

What's the difference between something being written 80 years after an alleged event and 200 years ?

If you're precluding writings based on the time it took to write them down then the old testament has to be equally invalid.

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

Originally posted by reject
reply to post by Yissachar1

 

tithing is no longer the rule for christians; it is whatever you decide only...

2Co 9:7 Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

its a global business phenomena; damned McChurch scams

tithing is not and never has been part of biblical christian doctrine. its judaism's doctrine. its an anachronism, a throwback, a freak reversion to type; atavists are resurrecting it simply because its more lucrative

[edit on 1-3-2010 by reject]

reply to post by Rockstrongo37


That is the reason the Vatican dose not want it as practiced scripture....

The Gospel of Thomas may have been excluded from the canon of the New Testament because it was believed:

* not to have been written close to the time of Jesus
* not to have been written by apostolic authority or was forged in Thomas' name
* not to have been used by multiple churches over a wide geographic range
* to be heretical or unorthodox
* not to have been useful or comprehensible
* to be secret - or for adepts - as the first sentence of the gospel declares

I myself, go against the grain and the scripture I read from the book of thomas I believe should be in the New Testament and not weeded out by the Vatacan

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

I have always been amazed by those who are angery over giving money as tithe to the church, usually they dont go to church regulary themselves...yet have a real emphatic feeling over this subject.

You either dont get it, or you misrepresent on purpose. I DID go to church regularly. I am pretty darned sure a lot of others who are saying what they do have, too! I am also dirt poor, But also, i am not not a complete fool with my money. I tried- actually *tried* to give over what little I had to a church.... But I quit- stopped cold turkey. I drove a rustbucket (or half the time, no car at all!), Pastor owned an expensive car. Expensive clothes. A nice, BIG house. Know what I got? Empty promises and a dog and pony show. Because I was poor, the women I was supposed to marry snubbed and ridiculed me. (You shouldn't be unequally yoked!) My life has actually improved after stopping church. Now, when $$ goes out the window, I sent it that way MYSELF- not at the prodding of some besuited self righteous bible beater.

Here's something else. Someone I know was trying to be pastor. The church he was with demanded a certain % of money EVERY week. Wanna know what happened when he got sick, lost his job, and couldn't pay? (this deserves caps) THEY THREW HIM OUT OF THE CHURCH. No help, no compassion, nothing. Where did his money go? See EVERY other post on here. Cars, Clothes, Houses.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can quote precedent about what the church has done, have seen it happen, witness these things- And the very people we're telling this to 'cant see a thing wrong'. If people go by your house, stop, stare, and bring back hoses and buckets, your house must be on fire, and you need to DO something about it. When people are sitting here telling you your religion and faith are screwed up royally, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Because, just like your house being on fire- if you sit there and sneer at the people waving their arms and screaming, you are going to get burned!

[edit on 1-3-2010 by wylekat]

reply to post by moocowman


Again your proving my point, you clearly dont go to church anywhere except for holidays, and your not listening to a thing i posted...

Debate needs to be based on fact, in this case scripture...you and the origional poster have based this whole thing on emotions...you are clearly basing your beliefs on past hurts...for that i am very sorry.

I am a pastor...who believes that tithing does indeed include money...I believe this based on what is clearly shown in the bible and not what my personal feelings urge me too.

I believe that there are those who are lovers of truth then there are those who choose to believe the lie...many times people like you choose to believe what you believe because that is how you "feel".

While I can sympathise with your "feelings" because I have felt them before myself...I urge you to first attend a church that preaches the Word and nothing but the Word each week.

Rid yourself of this clear anger that you feel toward the "organised" church and how it runs.

Finally remember that pastors are people too, and there are sadly examples of crooks who have abused the tithe to own a lexus...forgive them and do not like your anger lead you into sin. Ephesians 4:26

Yes, tithing has been used by the Pharisees for generation. That's why Jesus whipped the money changers.

Excellent thread. S&F

It's one of the Grandest CONspiracies. It actually moves people away from God, which is what they actually want.

reply to post by wylekat


I truly feel very sad for you...while you may be better off for not going to church anymore...you clearly still have anger over your experience that you need to let go so you can have some real peace.

As a Christian here are a couple of my thoughts about tithing.

The main point of tithing for Christians is to give back to the Lord from what we are able to make. This will be difficult for some but once I have given the money to God with the right attitude in my heart it does not matter what is done with it, persay. Now that doesn't mean I should give money foolishly. If I tithe to my church should I care if they pay the salary of the janitor or the pastor, or pay the electric bill? If later I find someone was stealing or misusing the money obviously I will not give there anymore but God will hold them accountable for stealing from HIM.

My wife and I do tithe 10% (which I can assure is a RARITY in the church going world) but once a month we take our tithe money and buy food for one of the local food banks instead of giving it directly to a church. Jesus said if you feed someone who is hungry or give someone clothes who is in need then you are also doing it to Me (ok, paraphrased).

I would say to others please do not let your fear of money mismanagement by a church or evangelical leader be a roadblock to stop you from tithing. There are many ways to still give back.

reply to post by 911stinks


Tithing wasnt the reason that Jesus whipped them at all. Read your Bible before clinging to such error.

The money changers in the temple were cheating people in the exchange rates. There was corruption, the love of money was the most important tthing in the temple and he had to clear it out. The tithe wasnt the reason at all and had been established by God himself in the Mosaic law.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
Jesus said if you feed someone who is hungry or give someone clothes who is in need then you are also doing it to Me (ok, paraphrased).

How do you know that money is actually being spent on food, clothes? What if only 10% of the tithing THEY take in gets used for food and clothing?

What Jesus meant was, if you see someone in need, take them into your home, make them comfortable and fed, listen to their story, share yours with them, and it's makes a better person out of both of you.

Refer to the good Samaritan story

Jesus NEVER held a sermon in a church, nor did he ever say tithing was necessary.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by 911stinks]

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

I truly feel very sad for you...while you may be better off for not going to church anymore...you clearly still have anger over your experience that you need to let go so you can have some real peace

It's not so much anger at what happened to me (ok- so my entire life is ruined beyond repair.... but this is NOT what I am pointing out) But the anger that this is allowed. Day in, Day out these people are ALLOWED to fleece, rob, ruin, and hurt people, and no one does a damned thing about it! What can be done? Easy. Leave. Just... leave. People are on ATS hollering about 'dont buy gas for a week', or 'if enough people in America dont pay taxes...' Think about the message that can be sent if these money hogs have no one to fleece any more. People need to get over some guy telling them to give HIM money, or they are BBQ'd for all eternity. People need to stand up, and get out of churches like that. When are people going to grow a set and say NO MORE.... I have... It's merely a drop out of the bucket, but I have stood up and refused to give these hyenas any of my money, nor will I let them tickle my ears with their empty promises. True- I dont go anywhere, now... But after repeatedly ending up in the same type of place over and over and over, it's better to not go at all, than be put thru the same cycle yet again.

Originally posted by Rockstrongo37
reply to post by 911stinks

 

Tithing wasnt the reason that Jesus whipped them at all. Read your Bible before clinging to such error.

The money changers in the temple were cheating people in the exchange rates. There was corruption, the love of money was the most important tthing in the temple and he had to clear it out. The tithe wasnt the reason at all and had been established by God himself in the Mosaic law.

What do you think they were exchanging? Roman money, with Caesars face on it, which the church claimed was unacceptable to God, for money that the Church minted, which was supposedly acceptable to God, according to the Pharisees, for the purpose of tithing.

Maybe it's you who needs a review?

reply to post by 911stinks


Again read your scripture....

The church hadnt been established yet, Jesus did that in Matthew 16:18, but indeed he did teach in the Temple...the church of the day.

Examples:
Matthew 21:14 (New International Version)
14The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them.

Luke 2:46-49 NIV
46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Luke 19:47 (New International Version)
47Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him.

reply to post by 911stinks


I am sorry but that argument is simply shallow. The very fact that there were exchangers there to allow the use of money to fullfill the tithe proves my point.

The fact that they were corrupt was the reason that Christ whipped them out of the temple.

Something tells me my years in seminary compared to purhaps the few times you have read the Word in convenience indicates your clear lack of understanding of both facts and events to support your opinion.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by Rockstrongo37]

Time is money. If you truly believe and cannot afford to tithe then give your time to the church/god/charity/community service, there is always work that needs to be done.

reply to post by Yissachar1

I have never been a Pastor/Rabbi bro..... I appreciate your sentiment, and think that people do need fellowship with one another,

It's not a matter of needing to fellowship....it's a vital to the body of Christ! When all of us finally get to that point, hopefully sooner than later, I believe mircles will happen.

but I dont need a Pastor to shepherd me... As a Spirit filled Jew, having the Holy Spirit, I carry the church around me wherever I go.. God shepherds me, teaches me truth.. Why would I then need a pastor? That is what God intended from the beginning.. That He dwell in us... You wont hear that at a church though...

ahh.. my brother ....we ALL need a pastor according to the NT in which the Apostle spells it out why we do...

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work

source

we will always be learning, till the Savior comes, I know from what I've read, I've barely scratched the surface of scripture. Even Jesus said to the 12 discilples that there were things he wanted to tell them but, their minds wouldn't comprehend it. I still believe we are here even this very moment.

Paul sat under Peter for a good while...he needed a pastor and someone to be accountable to as well and be a bit humbled to learn from someone who "didn't know it all." It's intresting to see how God does things.

Do I need a pastor even though I've been one ? Yes. Why? I need to be accountable to someone as well within the body. I NEED to hear the Word and A Word from the Lord: 'A' word, hopefully, that will carry me through the next week or further.

So God, our Heavenly Father, had already established a structure for the body of Christ to learn from. I fully believe those 5 offices are what each believer are to be called to. That is the goal. Why? I don't see where else in the NT we are to aspire to. We are to DISCIPLE others within the faith by example and word.

To some church is a building that they can leave behind on a Sunday... Man have they got it wrong...

perhaps, but, that's the very reason they need a pastor, Elders, Decons to bring them up in the faith and encourge them. We need accountablility to keep the evil one from the door of our hearts because he also knows we are human and will do anything to turn us from the relationship God worked on for millenias. For when we no longer NEED fellowship, Lucifer is close at hand~!

For when I was younger, the LORD spoke to me and said. .."The way to act toward Authority wheather it's a Pastor, policeman, your employer, ect, reflexs your submition to me. How can you say you respect me when you hate the authority I've put in place: are they not there for your personal protection??" and my answer that was in tears as usual ... "yes LORD..

Where you are, there is the church with Yeshua at the altar of your heart....

Totally agreed~! and there he sould ever remain!

I do go to Messianic Synagogue.. But that is to stratagise with brothers and sisters on what we do in the community, and keep each other accountable and encouraged... Its not the whole deal though as some would have it!

yes... and those of us that don't go to a Messianic Synagogue go to a local 'church to do close to the very thing you do as well..to worship and sing and praise him for lifting you up when you were down and open your eyes to Him who is able to keep you from falling~!

I know this. You do have a love for God's people just as most of us here do, and it's that love for God's people that make you angery... much like Jesus wiped out the moneychangers in the outter court so the Gentiles could worship too. but, instead, they found a way to make money, thus the very reason Jesus whipped them out, because of his love for ALL mankind~!

Be encourged my brother! God see this happening too and has plans to deal with them and their ways. He's already putting them to the test by other belivers making them accontable by the use of the internet. I can't remember what the name of the website is but, it tracks who makes how much and where it goes. ) they can't serve 2 Masters )

I've never really paid only 10%, since very early in my walk, I've ask how much God wanted me to give and some times it was all I had in my wallet and then some or none at all. Because HE was the LORD of my life!

If I ever came to a place where I wasn't exactally sure. my bare minimum was 10% and if I couldn't give that .. I asked him what it was I could give and in those times I just prayed over the offering and trusted that God knew what was needed.

To quote downisreallyup....

The NEW way is simple to explain: In your heart, give everything to God, and then learn to "hear" his instructions so you can know how to deal with all of God's time, money and things!

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

I am a pastor...who believes that tithing does indeed include money...I believe this based on what is clearly shown in the bible and not what my personal feelings urge me too.

Dude I have not argued whether tithing includes money or not, in fact I know it does.

I merely pointed out that history of the command to give to god came from ancient Egypt, the fact that is written that the Yahweh god gives the same instruction is merely an extension of the Egyptian method of extorting the populace through fear of a god.

By the way who pays your wages ?

Originally posted by Rockstrongo37
reply to post by 911stinks

 

Again read your scripture....





Luke 2:46-49 NIV
46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers..

Jesus never preached from the pulpit. He was in the courts, listening and asking questions.

When he preached, he was at places like the Sermon on the Mount. In the open, available for all to hear.

Now, back to tithing.

You didn't respond to my response to your response . I find the whipping of the money changers one of the most important lessons Jesus taught, for our time.

Days later, he was crucified. That's how angry it made the Priests.

reply to post by Komodo

It's not a matter of needing to fellowship....it's a vital to the body of Christ!

This would imply that your god is lacking something and not omnipotent, it implies that should you not do this that your god would not exist and is therefore the construct of the human mind.

reply to post by wylekat


Look, you might have guess by now that i am a Pastor. Honestly I am a member of the clergy who screams about the "schisters" our there who are theives who promise crap for money.

But that still doesnt remove the fact that God wants us to give our "first fruits" to the house of God.

I would first say that I am sorry for your difficult times...you have no idea that I can truly relate.

What saddens me the most is that your experiences with these "men of the cloth" has in the end taken you out of the church all together.

I hope in time you find a home church that is one of integrity and transparency.

Remember we believers do indeed need to be in church.

Hebrews 10:25
25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.