Why are babies sinners?

Originally posted by seethelight
reply to post by 23432

 

Original Sin is not about people sinning, it's about being born with sin, because after the fall of man people were no longer innocent.


Being born with sin is not something i would sunscribe to . Perhaps Adem made a mistake and Eve was the cause of it all .

But I am not them , I am unique and one of a kind . So is everyone else .

Metaphorically speaking , this is what happens to those slaves who are destined to own their masters .
Innocent indicates the not knowing in false etymology and no evil in real meaning .

Either case , those who enslaved humanity via manipulation of universal truth , are saying that I am ( Hu-Man) no longer innocent .

I do not believe them .




No one has been born without sin since then... which is why God sent Christ to earth to die for humanity, to atone for original sin.

I respectfully disagree .




But you have to BELIEVE in Jesus to get his forgiveness (great trick that).


Until you do, his blood sacrifice isn't transferred onto you... so you still have original sin...


Muslims are all kosher then , eh ?

Which is WHY babies are sinners and WHY babies go to hell.

Only if you believe it to be so imho .


Well, that's the protestant view.

I think Catholics look at forgiveness a bit differently, but they do believein original sin.. though, they also (At least some) believe god os cool with you if you haven't had a CHANCE to accept Jesus.

Protestants just think, tough luck.

I do not believe that a mistake my ancestors made , automatically qualifies me into a sinner .

reply to post by 23432


You might've missed my point. I don't believe any of this, I am just stating what Christians/Protestants believe, generally speaking.

reply to post by seethelight



my apoligies for missing the point .

reply to post by 23432


that's cool man, we all do it

Originally posted by kawacat
It seems to me that is very unfair - a baby is a pure clean soul, unblemished - so why are we told by the Bible (which I think was written by a lot of liars) and the churches (which I think are run by a lot of liars) that we are born in sin?

Based on this statement, Im sure you are being completely objective...

Anyways, you don't have to teach kids to lie or steal. Assuming you have them, Im sure your children did that on their own without you instructing them to. (That is unless you frequently lie or steal around your children) Ever seen a baby throw a tantrum because you've taken something away from them? Its cute/harmless because they are helpless do do anything about it, but imagine if they were 6 ft 200 lbs, they would kill you w/o hesitation and think nothing of it. Babies/unregenerate humans are self centered to the core.

Originally posted by jrmcleod

Its very simple, its like being associated with a murder even if you didnt commit it, its the same thing.

Uh, no. Legally, being an accessory to murder is a different charge from being a murderer. There are different levels of punishment for each.

This whole "babies are born in sin" thing came about because the Church gets its panties in a twist over, shhhh - S-E-X. As a recovering Roman Catholic I remember all too well the lectures about how babies are born with sin on their souls because of 2 things - Eve's disobedience to the Judeo-Christian god and because they were conceived sexually. It's why Mary supposed was conceived without sin - that way she couldn't pass it on to Jesus - and why it's so important to Catholics that Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin - no ugly, sweaty sex to create their lord.

reply to post by LibertyLover


Love the way you explain the virgin birth, have to give it to the human mind when it comes to writing such wonderful stories that back in the days people actually believe them but in modern days most intelligent people understand that is nothing but the fiction of an over active and very (creative minds).

But then again why people still worship religion and Christianity? because of faith.

Faith can be such a wonderful thing also when it comes to soothe the soul.

Without going into a controversial debate about religion I have to agree that religion is very good at keeping people faithful.

Perhaps is human nature to dream and fantasized about the impossible, to believe that is more than just us mere humans that is something out there more powerful than us, but then again is very wrong when religion can condemn babies to damnation because something that from the beginning of time is nothing but our human nature, what makes us different from other species and also make us dangerous and at the same time wonderful, our free will. . .

Originally posted by kawacat
I just cannot understand how a newborn baby could be a sinner.
It seems to me that is very unfair - a baby is a pure clean soul, unblemished - so why are we told by the Bible (which I think was written by a lot of liars)...

If you think the Bible was written by a bunch of liars, don't believe it, and don't worry your head about what it says.
As other have said, the Bible says we are sinners from conception. We don't become sinners because we sin; we sin because that is our nature from day one. From a Biblical perspective, you are looking on appearances and not the heart or soul. This doesn't mean we can't cherish babies for representing the essence of the purest beauty, innocence, beauty, and hope that we crave.

On a practical note, however, anyone who has children knows that they have the uncanny ability from the earliest ages to "break-thru" their seeming "innocense and behave in a very contrary and suprising way.

Originally posted by marg6043
Without going into a controversial debate about religion I have to agree that religion is very good at keeping people faithful

I respectfully disagree with you. "Religion" is NOT very good at keeping people "faithful". If you are talking about faith, ardent, true, real faith, relgion cannot generate that or sustain it. Not really. Faith is a gift from God and, where it exists, is sustained by God.
Perhaps what you are talking about is participation or adherence to religious practices. These things are not necessarily representative of faith. Man looks at the outside; God looks at the inside. Human beings are expert at self-deception.

Babies are not born sinners, they are born into a world currently under rullership of the DRAGON NATAS* and this is why some believe at birth babies should be baptised in order to free these children from being overwhelmed by NATAS THRU THE ORIGINAL SIN commited by the SEEDS. Liluth didnt eat from the tree of knowledge????????????

reply to post by pumpkinorange


And that is your personal opinion, see without religion will not be the creation of a God without god will not be the knowledge of a supreme being and faith will not be necessary, it is religion the ones that created, nurtured and indoctrinated humans to believe in a God.

And it goes for all religions in the world no only Christianity.

Plain and simple, no religion no concept of a God.

If this 'god so loved the world', you'd think he would have visited by now instead of killing his only kid, whacked.

And no, sin as they know it, does not exist.

A newborn is born a sinner because we say he is. He can be (and in my eyes is) the most pure, unadulterated soul in existence, but the moment his parents say he is born with sin, he is. The sins of the Father.

We are all born into sin having knowledge of good and evil and not having the wisdom and inner strength to eschew evil completely. As soon as a child can accept evil her or she will,...trust me I have a 3 and a 6 year old and have seen this directly, they lie, steal and disobey early. Born into evil yes, born evil I don't believe so.

Remember, Jesus said in Mark 10:14:

"Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God".

Personally I believe there is an age of accountability before which God's grace covers little ones completely and if they die before that age is reached they go to heaven. Jesus' words would support this position suggesting heaven is filled with children. If a child has not reached a mental state where he can distinguish between good and evil (both of which are adult concepts) and is unable to make a clear choice for one or the other, then it seems incompatible with the known nature of God that He would cast such a one into hell. Likewise for those who are physically adults but mentally unable to understand such concepts.

Also note that there are numerous bible references stating that we bear accountability for our own sins (Ezekiel 18:20, Matthew 12:37). Jesus also taught that the "blind" or unknowing were not accountable for their sin:

John 9:39-41 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? ; Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

But once we see we are accountable (I Corinthians 3:8, Galatians 6:5).

So, is there an age of accountability for children? I believe that the Scripture supports this as true, though there is no one clear passage in Scripture that directly states this. Again, this is, to my knowledge, an "inferred doctrine".

Hope that helps somewhat.

I believe it to be metaphorical. It seems to relate to imprints that are passed on from parents to children. Both purely genetic and behavioral imprints. Nobody has gotten the game perfect, and some really suck at it. To put it one way, as did Robert Anton Wilson, we are all giants raised by pygmies. Our world is unhealthily out of balance, and hence it has "sinned," or "missed the mark." Each set of parents, to a certain extent, passes this mentality of self and collective defeatism to their offspring. Hence, born into sin.

reply to post by pumpkinorange


I agree. Being ostracized if one does not do rote incantations, always having to fit into a specific mold does not create faith. The process is both individual and collective, and it is dynamic. Those without insight will only stifle it. It creates a charade for fear of being outed. Faith cannot come from fear. It cannot come from hope. It emerges as a third thing, sort of a combination of hope/fear but neither really. More like the circular patterns of hope and fear have been recognized, and as such, will not be repeated, because the repetition is no longer necessary upon a completed perspective. A mental gap between hope/fear is bridged. It gets one out of his or her loopiness, if that makes sense, which I am sure it does to quite a few of you.

..... Obviously , babies do not go to hell
... every soul is created equal , sin free ,
... into a world FULL of sin .
Only God can judge who goes where ....
..... would a three year old who accidentally bumped a
hair dryer into an occupied bath , go to hell ?
... I doubt it
Is Moses in hell for "murdering" a Roman soldier ?
... I doubt it
Only the Living God can judge ...

..... and He does

Posted by me in another thread as it has total relevance here as well :

Children baptized or not and depending on how young they are upon their death do not go to Hell as they were not knowledgeable enough to have made a negative choice that caused them to commit a sin.

Meaning, if you cannot or do not clearly know the difference between right and wrong you legally cannot be held accountable for your actions the same applies for religion. A 18 yr old has a considerably higher likelyhood of being sent to Hell for 1,000 years then a 3 yr old whose life is just begining.

The minor in cases where they die younger then say, age 4 they are typically reassigned to complete their course.

The term, "For they know not what they do" more than applies here.


[edit on 27-2-2010 by TheImmaculateD1]

Babies born into sin doesn't exist because sin doesn't exist. Fear based religions use guilt as a means to control, if you believe that you are a sinner then the church controls you because you have to confess or get saved.

There is no sin that keeps you from god. There is no hell or devil or judgment. These are lies used for control. These are religious memes that are taught.

click on links for easy to read essays on this topic:

gospelgodspell.blogspot.com...

out-of-jew-hell.blogspot.com...

666decoded.blogspot.com...

deathcultmemes.blogspot.com...

Phishna

www.blogger.com...

I am still up in the air as to the "age of accountability" thing.
Being a christian, I have to examine the texts to my best ability and not fall into my own ideas of "that's not fair" etc. (There is an example of this in Romans 8/9?).

Sure, you can look at a baby/child and think how lovely/wonderful etc.
But God knows the heart and He knows the depravity of sin in all its forms.
We ourselves can clearly see sin at work in the world.

He himself bore the full just wrath of sin upon himself so that his people would be released from this judgement.

It is not a subject to ponder lightly and dismiss so easily.