Why are babies sinners?

reply to post by seethelight


But isn't the knowledge of reproduction and sex forbidden knowledge from the original sin (eating the apple)? Therfore a child is born into sin, from sin?

I am going to get slated for this.

Babies are not born sinners... the older I get, the more I feel that the bible and any other religion as a whole is complete tosh that poisons the minds of people who are too insecure to be content with their own mind and the possibility that there is NO comfort waiting for them when they die.

Why can't modern society wake up and see that religion was a way of our ancestors to make sense of the things they had no understanding of? There are no miracles, there is no divine entity that will one day welcome you with open arms if you have followed the rules, there is no hell waiting for murderers and paedophiles. There is only life and death, on and off, to be or not to be.

Until we realise this as a race (a single race...human), we will make no progress, not achieve any kind of peace and not be able to work together to one day save ourselves when the time inevitably arises. It is no good relying on any God to save us.

Come on people wake up!

reply to post by seethelight


And you still have not answer my question, what knowledge did Adam and Eve learned from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Now if you are to follow the church interpretation of it then you follow the same main stream believe that is been indoctrinated by the church.

But the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou you should not eat of it, for in the day that thou should eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17.

The doctrine of sin, teach by the church as the original sin, what knowledge did Adam and Eve learned that made them sinners?

Man ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he acquired a mind and became a rational being. Supposedly the knowledge of good and evil, man became moral, God sentence him to earn his bread and labor, man became a productive being, God made him (able to reproduce, have sex) so man was sentenced to have (desires), so it became a able to endure sexual desires and enjoy them, This are the evils of the original sin, the ones the church have condemn men for eternity unless saved by repentance, Reason, Morality, creativeness, enjoyment and desire.

Now again what did Adam and eve learned from the fruit of the tree of knowledge again?





[edit on 26-2-2010 by marg6043]

reply to post by WolfKing


Well thank you for that my friend, but I'm quite happy with my spiritual well being as it is.

Personally, I rejected Christianity as a very young child. It didn't seem to make sense and didn't seem to be doing me any good. But that's just my view, as I had a tough childhood.

reply to post by fiftyfifty


Ahmen to that brother!

^^^^^^

Can you see the irony here?

Originally posted by nik1halo
reply to post by spy66

 

Hmm, interesting philosophy. So, basically what you're saying is that you will not remember your time on Earth, but will just continue in a perpetual state of bliss?

I could see the advantage of that, but without memory of your life, then what is the point of the life lived? Your soul has not learned, or evolved in any way and you are no richer for the experience.

BTW, please understand, I do not believe any of this, but I love getting into calm, rational theological debates. It's nice to see something from both sides of the fence. I once spent 3 hours with a religeous dude at a music festival batting questions back and forth. Half a bottle of whiskey later and the sun started to come up. Good night that...

To be honest i personally can't answer all these questions because i don't know. I dont know for sure why God has chosen to do everything this way.


What is the point of life lived?

To answer this question you could read the first chapters of the Bible. It would explain everything a lot better then i can.

There is one "Church" that makes a bit more sense:

7dabm.com... and some more thougths - www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org...

Going home now, chat to you all laters

[edit on 26-2-2010 by WolfKing]

It saddens me how babies are made born sinners with myth of the original sin.

In the interpretation of sin by the church at least the original church and from where all churches has adopted, is that we are all born sinners, that means by church standards is no such thing as Innocent born babies, from conception we are all condemn to carry the sin of Adam and Eve and by the church the judgment of God, (Psalm 5:15) so we are all to carry the guilt of Adam and eve, interesting that this the whole idea of the church indoctrination of salvation, repentance and if not pursued hell.

Now, the Catholic church goes farther than that, it make babies sinners from the time of conception because they are conceived in sin and without baptism condemn to hell.

Making any newborn bound to hell if they die without been saved first.

If all this is not scare tactics then I wonder what may be.

reply to post by nik1halo


Yes and no.

Before A&E were kicked out, they were essentially perfect beings that would live forever.

After they commited the original sin they gained knowledge, as a side-effect of that sin.

The sin wasn't knowing about sex, the sin was disobeying god.

The side-effect was not just knowledge either, it was being mortal, sinning, being unperfect, having pain, etc., etc.

You will note though that god says that part of the punishment is "pain during childbirth"... which is not the same thing as saying "childbirth".

In other words maybe Eve woulda had kids even if the garden wouldn't have fallen...

So again, no knowledge wasn't the sin, diobeying gods ONE commandment was.

It's all in the first 20 pages or so of the bible and would take 10 minutes to read.

reply to post by spy66


Oh, I've read the Bible. You have to have knowledge of something to understand it before you even start to make a rational decision about it. Read the Quran too, far too fire and brimstone for me, that one.

The problem is of course that the bible is more esoteric than rational and so, these questions remain unanswered.

reply to post by marg6043


It has something to do with having faith in Gods word.

Adam and Eve did not have faith in God. They put their faith in their own hands.
That is also the punishment we are bound by to day. We are bound by the faith we put in our own hands. We are bound by the choice Adam and Eve made.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by marg6043


I thought unbaptised babies, who died went to purgatory, not hell.

I'm sure I heard that somewhere.

This is really an argument of two levels:

1) what does your religion of choice preach/what do you think they preach
2) this is just a bunch on nonsense, babies don't go to hell, nobody does; it's just a fairy tale.

No I known what the bible says, but I don't believe any of it (at least I don't make any decisions based SOLELY on the bible's teachings).

reply to post by nik1halo


Purgatory got #canned a few years ago by the Catholics who were the only brand of Christianity to believe it... well, the only BIG brand...

I can't speak to every weirdo strain of Christianity.

Sorry, I didn't have time to read all the replies. Common sense tells me that an innocent child has no sin. Common sense tells me that man is imperfect and therefore will make mistakes in his journey through life. He will hopefully learn from these mistakes and grow into a better person. How could a God judge its own creation and expect perfection from that which is imperfect?

Religion has always stifled and confused me even as a child. It wasn't until I left the rhetoric and dogma of religion that I finally felt free spiritually.

reply to post by seethelight


Hmm, I think I'm going to have to go back and re-read Genesis, because i have to admit to vast holes in my recall. It has been a few years since I picked up a bible. About 20 to be fair .

reply to post by nik1halo


Hadn't read your previous posts until now. Not entirely sure what you mean with regards to the irony but Im assuming you agree

reply to post by Night Star


Yeah, but formless spirituality is just saying, "make up any old thing you want".

So you could be "spiritual" and feel free by thinking ALL babies that died go to Minnesota.


The question is about a doctrine which (some) Christian Churches teach... and which a few Christians choose to disagree with (even though it undermined their entire faith) because it seems icky.

reply to post by spy66


In other words men free will made them sinners in the eyes of their own creator that actually said very clear he created men and women in his own image, I guess it forgot to clear them from rational thinking, right?

This why I don't believe in organized religion because the human made god is as flaw as the humans that created him.

Then, to cover up its mistake god decided to come to earth itself in the body of a male to die crucified for the mistake he made when creating its master piece, nothing but the stories of the human mind because only a human mind can be creative enough (another sin) to make such story.

Plain and simple for me.

reply to post by nik1halo


I grew up in the deep south and spent 5 days a week in a church.

I've read multiple translations of the bible and I still think it's a bunch of BS.

That being said, these discussion don't work unless we're all on the same page.