Eating Alices Cookie didnt take me to Wonderland. Stop telling people to avoid medication!!!

reply to post by OzWeatherman


That's just the impression I got from the title of the thread.

After reading your most recent posts I think you got it right when you said...

Anyone that thinks after 5 years of someone suffering depression, that person can be cured by simply taking on tablet, is clearly misguided in what depression is

The pills are a crutch...

I would also like to add that they did increase homicidal and suicidal thoughts from personal experience.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by haplo]

Originally posted by mkultraangel
reply to post by Lasheic

 

I found your response to be fascinating! My question to you is where you have found accepted proof on the redhead (I will continue to call this a hypothesis). I remember stumbling across that information somewhere and reading that it was debatable---from personal experience I can certainly say it is very true!

~*Snip*~

but you would think that more doctors would be aware of this hypothesis (which in fact is fact) that you mentioned!---as far as antidepressants, however--luckily I don't need them and I am not sure what caused me to need them initially and then never again--9 years without any...who knows

Prior to just a few years ago, there was no real evidence suggesting such was the case, only strong circumstantial evidence. This is why you ran across anesthetic application in patients such as yourself being debated, but often not accommodated for in practice. Many anesthesiologists were either unaware of the implications - or erred on the side of caution. The job of an anesthesiologist is a very precarious position, and over-application can be deadly to the patient. Giving a 20% increase in anesthetics to redheads without evidence of a strong correlative link could expose a significant portion of the population to overdose in anesthetics.

However, since the human genome has been sequenced and as it's study advances, we've learned a great deal and settled many debates which were inconclusive just a few years ago. For example, the metabolism of anesthesia is redheads.

NCBI PubMed Journal of Anesthesiology. 2004 August; 101(2): 279–283.: Anesthetic Requirement is Increased in Redheads

Background: Age and body temperature alter inhalational anesthetic requirement; however, no human genotype is associated with inhalational anesthetic requirement. There is an anecdotal impression that anesthetic requirement is increased in redheads. Furthermore, red hair results from distinct mutations of the melanocortin-1 receptor. We thus tested the hypothesis that the requirement for the volatile anesthetic desflurane is greater in natural redhead than in dark-haired women.

*Method Snipped - Full Text at Link*

Results: The desflurane requirement in redheads (6.2 volume-percent [95% CI, 5.9 - 6.5]) was significantly greater than in dark-haired women (5.2 volume-percent [4.9 – 5.5], P = 0.0004). Nine of 10 redheads were either homozygous or compound heterozygotes for mutations on the melanocortin-1 receptor gene.

Conclusions: Red hair appears to be a distinct phenotype linked to anesthetic requirement in humans that can also be traced to a specific genotype.

It's also well worth mentioning that while we think of ourselves and each other as individuals, and as examples of human biochemistry, that's not how reality operates. We are each individual ecosystems of which human DNA only accounts for about 10% of the whole. The microbial colonies which live inside us and on our surface are just as important to promoting our health and well-being as our own physiology and expressions of our genotype. Microbes (bacteria & archaea) in our intestines help us digest food and help train our immune system, and microbes in our lungs and on our skin help to defend against disease. Pharmaceutical drugs which are detrimental to these unique and individual ecologies can a range of side effects accompanied by pharmaceuticals which cannot be tested for in the lab.

I am really surprised by the length of this thread and some of the hostility in the posts. I do not see the big controversy. Some can cure or treat their illnesses with alternative natural cures, diet, and lifestyle changes. Others cannot.

Psychiatric illnesses are real and can be very, very serious if left untreated. We still have a long and lingering stigma attached to these disorders. I have seen this in my own family. A few have bought into the drugs are bad, shrinks are bad rants. I watched one uncle die from drinking himself to death. He had untreated schizophrenia. He refused to get help and self-medicated with booze. He drank himself to death young. He was a miserable human being through no "fault" of his own. It was just the way God put him together at the factory. I have another uncle who has untreated depression compounded with a host of other illnesses that are also undiagnosed. He is a true antisocial behavior type. He has no friends, has no joy in life, and hates the world. I watched him one Christmas come unglued when we tried to get him into a family doctor for a psych referral. "What, so now everybody thinks I am crazy?"

Those who truly need professional help, and yes medication, are sometimes the ones who would never engage in the kind of alternative, natural therapies that have been mentioned in this thread. The truly ill are in no position to help themselves naturally. Heck, they won't even take one day out of their life to see a counselor, much less start reading about cognitive behavioral therapy or SSRIs. It is awful to watch. I have seen it.

Please understand, I am all for awareness and posts into natural cures. I think that there are some very useful things that can help. However, it is not a one-size fits all. People and disorders are too diverse. I only ask for compassion and understanding from those who seek and advocate natural cures. Please continue to post your ideas, success stories, and tips. But also please realize that some cannot live without medication and professional help. Sometimes the proposed cure is no cure at all. That goes for the conventional medical treatment as well as the natural cures.

I know people who say they won't get a flu shot because they think they are putting chips into people. Small implantable RFID chips do exist, but not THAT small (small enough to be invisibly injected with a normal needle).

Originally posted by Blazer
I know people who say they won't get a flu shot because they think they are putting chips into people. Small implantable RFID chips do exist, but not THAT small (small enough to be invisibly injected with a normal needle).

Sorry

What does this have to do with the topic?

RFID chips and the swine flu are not the topic of this thread

This is an awesome video I just removed it from another post You shouldn't miss this. Very funny and serious too.

Doctors are a very touchy subject.

There are some good ones out there who want you to feel better. My family is friends with one. He is a good doctor and genuine.

however, the more medication a doctor prescribes a patient, the more money the doctor makes. Plain and simple. You cannot deny that fact.

Depression is the most retarded symptom i have ever heard of. I am studying psychology at the moment, and so far i have gotten into heated debates with all my teachers, usually ending with them confused and baffled at the truth.

Lets read the symptoms of depression:

"You feel like a black curtain is down on your body. You feel tired and cant concentrate. You are very unhappy about yourself and your life"

Really? Sounds like someone needs to get laid and get and some rest. Medication doesn't substitute natural human instincts.



[edit on 23-2-2010 by demonseed]

reply to post by demonseed


G'day demonseed

Your assertion that Dr's earn more if they prescribe more drugs is incorrect.

Your assertion that "depression is retarded" is offensive.

I hope you can become better informed.

I hope you can become more sensitive to the suffering of others.

Regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by demonseed


you honestly think that these are the only symptoms of depression?

"You feel like a black curtain is down on your body. You feel tired and cant concentrate. You are very unhappy about yourself and your life"

well, allow me to assist in further educating you on the matter, because your assessment of depression is highly offensive.

yes depression causes people to be very tired, sad, it makes some people feel completely worthless and detached and alone, like they have no one and nothing to turn to. that they feel like there is absolutely nothing good in this life and no reason to stick around. depression causes thoughts of suicide and can be the cause of self harming behaviours such as excessive drug use, physically harming your body, and other wreckless behaviour. people with depression experience physical symptoms as well, such as body aches and pains, headaches, loss of appetite, either excessive sleep, or insomnia, digestion problems, and often times depression is coupled with other symptoms such as anxiety. anxiety can cause people to not leave their house. an anxiety attack can bring on all types of physical symptoms as well. just to mention a few, shaking, hyperventilating, crying, intense fear, tightened and sore muscles..then some people may become overwhelmed by the sensation of the anxiety and end up dissociating or passing out.

here perhaps the information on this site will help you to get a better understanding. www.medicinenet.com...

Originally posted by demonseed
Lets read the symptoms of depression:

"You feel like a black curtain is down on your body. You feel tired and cant concentrate. You are very unhappy about yourself and your life"

Really? Sounds like someone needs to get laid and get and some rest. Medication doesn't substitute natural human instincts.

I would be extremely surprised if you were learning psychology....your use op the word retarded, and you blatant disrespect for us that have actually experienced it, wont get you very far in your field. In fact after your comments, I have no problem saying that I hope you fail. People like that are not needed in the psychology proffesion.

And for the record, I was getting laid

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Wow Oz, this thread has turned into a train wreck. Now people are simply mocking the entire concept of depression? Nice

Before I explain why I dont take anti-depressants and never will, let me assure you that I think anti-depressants are GOOD for many people to take and that people who warn of doctors and medication in general are paranoid loons.

Now the reason I wont take anti-depressants is because I believe Depression to be an appropriate response to negative behavior, circumstances, body-chemistry or attitudes. So if I am feeling down all the time there is a good reason for that. By taking pills I can improve my state, but will I change the behaviours, circumstances, attitudes or chemistry that originally led to the Depression?

I know a woman who spent her entire day in the Internet, pointlessly surfing around. She did so for weeks. For months. For years. She had voiced her concern that she is wasting her life. After about 5 years of this, she was diagnosed with Depression and began taking anti-depressants. She still surfs the Internet all day, every day, she still does not have any goals in life, she still does not have a partner, but she says "Im feeling so much better now".

[edit on 23-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Before I explain why I dont take anti-depressants and never will, let me assure you that I think anti-depressants are OK to take, in many cases GOOD to take and that people who warn of doctors and medication in general are paranoid loons.

Now the reason I wont take anti-depressants is because I believe Depression to be an appropriate response to negative behavior, circumstances, body-chemistry or attitudes. So if I am feeling down all the time there is a good reason for that. By taking pills I can improve my state, but will I change the behaviours, circumstances, attitudes or chemistry that originally led to the Depression?

I know a woman who spent her entire day in the Internet, pointlessly surfing around. She did so for weeks. For months. For years. She had voiced her concern that she is wasting her life. After about 5 years of this, she was diagnosed with Depression and began taking anti-depressants. She still surfs the Internet all day, every day, she still does not have any goals in life, she still does not have a partner, but she says "Im feeling so much better now".

I see what you are saying. The thing you have to remember is that she lacked motivation before and lacked it after taking medication. Maybe the medication is addressing other issues. She says she is happier and that's a good sign. Can you see other areas of her appearance/behaviour that have improved after taking medication? I bet a few areas have improved. Also, other people cannot see all the positive changes made within in her own psyche. She could be a lot more focussed and less anxious.

Lack of motivation is just one aspect of Depression and will not necessarily be helped with medication. People don't understand what it's like because you have to go through it to grasp it. Lot's of people will say things like "how hard is it for her to go out and walk for 30 minutes a day? It isn't THAT hard!" or "her attitude is all wrong" but that is not necessarily the case. It is true that effort is required to effect real change, but maybe the medication was not prescribed for the purpose of conquering that specific hurdle.

[edit on 23/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


The feeling-down is the motivation for change. That motivation for change has been removed because she is feeling just fine now. So all remains the same.

What Im really saying is that if Im doing bad it may not be the best thing to feel good.

Of course, with some people, feeling better because of the pills causes them to get better in other areas as well. But in the case of the person Im talking about here, some counseling would have been more appropriate.
I think if she got out more and met others more, she'd be better in no time. Now that she's entirely "fine" living the same type of life I dont see her changing it.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by tomtom


people with chronic clinical depression can make themselves better without the need for meds, it is naive of you to assume that they cant. you are only a student further more, the brain is one of the least understood parts of the body, moods alone can change chemical inbalances in the brain, the medical comunity are trying to learn all the time about the functions of the brain.
people who decide to see a doctor are already dealing with the problems of clinical depression, i know this because i have inherrited this condition from my father, it is hard to keep yourself from turning depressed but it is possible, i cannot explain how i am capable of controlling it, but i do. other medical conditions i do not know of and also would push research rather than abstinence, personally i look to natural cures first but run to the doctor when i or my family need to

I think it's irresponsible to allow people to be duped into the idea that a medication is going to solve their depression illness. Afterall, when the pills wear off, it's straight back to depression. The pills don't fix the problem, they cover it up and make the crash that much worse when they wear off. You think people should just spend their lifetime taking pills, rather than suggesting they should try to pinpoint the root cause of the problem, and subsequently come to terms with it?

The "chemical imbalance" idea isn't even scientific fact. I've been through some pretty bad depression in my lifetime. Sometimes, prospects for a good life can look very dim. When life seems dim, and all you do is think about how dim it is, it is just a downward spiral from there. Negativity does not breed positivity. But heck, if you wanna dull yourself down with the anti-depressants while having a doctor tell you why you're depressed, (when he or she probably does not really know) and not spend any actual time trying to figure out why you're depressed... then go for it.

There are a lot of reasons why people are depressed. I highly doubt very many of them are so-called "chemical imbalances." I would even go as far as saying that anti-depressants only make depression worse after the subject is off of the anti-depressants. With any drug: if you go up, you're going to come down just as hard. Common sense.

I will agree, though, that if someone cannot function at all without drugs, then it might be best to take the drugs AND try very hard to figure out what the core root of the problem is. I highly doubt it's some incurable "chemical imbalance" which will require the person to forever be locked on medication. A lot of the time, it is perspective which has been formed by experiences the individual has been through.

How did I get through my horrible depression when I was younger? I changed my perspective. Anti-depressants only made me irritable and a jerk to everyone I knew. The drugs they had me on caused this in a large percentage of users.

Only take these kinds of drugs if it is absolutely necessary to your ability to function. Otherwise, the possible side-effects and definite long-term side-effects are not worth it, as these long-term effects can be more trouble than the illness you're trying to "cure." The cure doesn't come from drugs, it comes from yourself. Change your perceptions and state of mind to something more healthy, and you will become more healthy. Easier said than done, I know. But it is possible. I did it, therefore anyone can.

Being sad or happy will cause your so-called "chemical imbalances." Change the reason why you're sad. Don't know why? Figure it out. Gonna take drugs to dim your wits so you forget what your problem is? Ok, but then it will be unlikely for you to find the root of it, and subsequently rid of it. I know I sound like I'm being insensitive, but I'm not. I understand the problem, and I understand how it's an infinite loop of sadness and tiredness, and all the other physical effects of depression. I've been through it, I know. Perspective is a huge thing. It can and will decide your whole attitude about life.

Often, people who are depressed are just in an infinite loop of confusion about everything. Many times, that is the cause of depression, not a symptom.

It could be many other things, too, however. Things such as not going outside and getting enough sunshine. It is true that sunshine is correlated with happiness. Perhaps they don't exercise, as exercise allows for the release of endorphins. Perhaps they don't get enough sleep, and there's some other reason (other than depression) which makes it difficult for them to sleep (too much caffeine consumption? uncomfortable bed? no exercise?)? Perhaps they have a passion and dream in life which seems far away and hopeless to achieve? Abuse? Etc. etc. Things that someone just needs to come to terms with and accept, like death of a loved one. Etc.

One Love

[edit on 23-2-2010 by Fangula]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

The feeling-down is the motivation for change. That motivation for change has been removed because she is feeling just fine now. So all remains the same.

What Im really saying is that if Im doing bad it may not be the best thing to feel good.

Of course, with some people, feeling better because of the pills causes them to get better in other areas as well. But in the case of the person Im talking about here, some counseling would have been more appropriate.
I think if she got out more and met others more, she'd be better in no time. Now that she's entirely "fine" living the same type of life I dont see her changing it.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

Counselling would probably do her good regardless. You can take the medication and go to counselling - they don't have to be exclusive activities. If she is really in a rut, why not encourage her try all available avenues? Maybe having somebody to talk to who she can be open with will do her wonders.

Now that she is on this medication and says she is feeling better, why not encourage her to seek counselling? She might be in a better frame of mind and more receptive to the idea of making an appointment and seeing a psychologist. As you know, these things have to be done in steps. One of her first steps was admitting there was a problem, another step was agreeing to take the medication. Her next step is to make an appointment with a mental health professional and attend.

Tell her you are proud of what she has accomplished, but there are more steps for her to take. Remind her about the times she said she was wasting too much time on the internet. Tell her she is in a good position to change things, but she needs to put in extra work to achieve these goals.

reply to post by THELONIO

the brain is one of the least understood parts of the body

While this statement is tautologically true, it never ceases to amaze me how over-used it is as an excuse to justify a personal ignorance or an assertion made which relies on ignorance to feign merit.

I don't know how up to speed THELONIO is with current neuroscience, psychology (specifically cognitive psychology), neural imaging advances, and other such areas of research. Still, it seems predominantly the case that those who point out how little we know of the brain in such contexts are the very ones most utterly ignorant of just how very much we DO KNOW about the brain and it's operation.

Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by THELONIO

 

the brain is one of the least understood parts of the body

While this statement is tautologically true, it never ceases to amaze me how over-used it is as an excuse to justify a personal ignorance or an assertion made which relies on ignorance to feign merit.

I don't know how up to speed THELONIO is with current neuroscience, psychology (specifically cognitive psychology), neural imaging advances, and other such areas of research. Still, it seems predominantly the case that those who point out how little we know of the brain in such contexts are the very ones most utterly ignorant of just how very much we DO KNOW about the brain and it's operation.

Perhaps that member meant "Consciousness". We certainly know much about the physical make-up, structure and function of the Brain. But psychologists still know relatively little about the nature of Normal Waking Consciousness and especially Altered States of Consciousness. Some people confuse the biological/physiologically aspects of the Human Brain with the mental and psychological processes.

I personally believe there are many things about the functioning of the Mind that we do not fully understand. But I agree that saying "we know basically nothing about the Brain!" is rather misleading.

[edit on 23/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by (C2C)

 

This is the exact kind of thing Im talking about. Someone that is ignorant to the fact of the capabilities of medication, simply because you are self absorbed in some kind of conspiracy theory behind the pharmaceutical companies.

I did not cure myself through thoughts and mind, I battled through 5 years of it before I got proper help, thoughts didnt help me there at all, and it wasnt until I started taking medication and started seeing a psychiatrist, that I got better.

Cured are you? Y'don't say.

Sure about that? You believe you are "cured" don't you?