Eating Alices Cookie didnt take me to Wonderland. Stop telling people to avoid medication!!!

I too was on the precipice. Taking Effexor after trying Cymbalta, on top of Clonazepam and Ambein. I was in my car looking to pull out into traffic in front of a speeding semi-truck. I decided against that because it would not be fair to the truck's driver. A bullet in the head would be too messy and negate the life insurance policy. Driving into a solid embankment would then be the means to end the suffering. So, I do not express my Voice idly or without experience.

My experience with professionals (doctors, therapists, etc.) did not produce results or relief, but that is MY experience not anyone else's. All that anyone can do is to relay their own experiences to provide a modicum of information for others. Again it is up to the individual to choose. There is no need to disparage the Voice of others.

God's Love is unconditional, all we have to do is open up and let the light shine upon us. To understand or attempt to understand is a choice, Compassion is given from the heart and we cannot tell our heart what to feel.

Peace and Love

Originally posted by earthdude
The newest anti-depressants seem to be the same thing as ecstacy pills. I wouldn't recommend stopping the use of your meds, but realize, they are just giving you the same happy pills that you can get from a drug dealer.

Dude, have you ever taken one of the new antidepressants? They are far from ecstacy pills. They don't give you an immediate high; when taken over a period of time, they help balance your mood, not give you an overwhelming sense of euphoria.

reply to post by WhiteDevil013

So.... you're saying that because something worked for you, everyone should do what you do and put toxins into their bodies, altering their brain chemistry? Dont you think that is just as irresponsible as telling people NOT to take drugs?

Not really, you have kinda twisted his meaning. He is saying, don't listen to ATSers regarding drug paranoia, but get a few medical opinions, couple it with counseling and nutrition, and manage your health.

Originally posted by Pimpish
reply to post by cjcord

 

Actually no, it wasn't. His plea was for people on the forums to stop telling other people to stop taking their medications and basically that the professionals know best so listen to them. So I guess so long as you're agreeing with the doctor, its ok.

No, you are wrong, cjcord is correct

I never said to take a doctors word 100% as gospel. I said investigate independently and with a doctor or medical health preoffesional. I also said get a second or third opinion if you are unhappy with the first one. Stop trying to twist my words around

reply to post by TheComte


lol getting old is a choice (unconscious choice for most). People buy into the whole ageing thing hook line and sinker because everyone around them is ageing so they assume that they will age also. But if you realise you don't have to be like everyone one else and that you are ultimately the one in control, you do not have to age at all! You can actually make yourself reverse in age. You create your realitiy!!

Originally posted by WhiteDevil013
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

So.... you're saying that because something worked for you, everyone should do what you do and put toxins into their bodies, altering their brain chemistry?

AGAIN NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Read the friggin OP properly. I am in no wasy saying people should simply just use medication

You people really surprise me with your inability to address the proper topic

[edit on 22/2/2010 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by tomtom


Have to agree with you.

As someone who has worked within Mental Health for around 14 years now...currently a Nurse Practitioner (which means I have the added skillbase/quals/responsibility to provide differential diagnosis, action MHA and commit, prescribe medications and a variety of other *abilities* within the wider scope of practice) I'm often surprised at the rather 'black and white' approach so many seem to take around here.

I do agree with others who have stated there is no one set way - one magic pill that will cure your ills. Every one of us is a collection of contexts...every component of a persons context inter-relates to every other.

Its certainly by no means as simple as "Here, take this and you'll be fine". Rather any type of *therapy* must be approached from as many angles and as wide a perspective as possible...as again, ultimately we are all individuals, not clones, so too any *answer* must be individualised to the person.

If thats medication. So be it.
If thats natural interventions. So be it.
If thats any other form of therapy. So be it.
If thats exercise, good food, or even just 'hardening up' as some people seem to think. So be it.
If thats stripping down naked and dancing the funky chicken in your backyard. So be it.
If thats a collection of any and all of the above. So be it.

What works for you works for you.
The danger however is in holding firm to a belief that what worked for you will work for him or her.

See...thats where I believe the Mental Health system itself is somewhat limited - scope of practice, scope of vision.
The System itself and the interventions utilised (be they pharmaceutical, be they psychiatric, be they psychoanalytical)...as some have mentioned...is/has been developed via a great deal of trial and error. Cause and effect.

This creates that - mostly.

If the symptomology of a person includes a, b,c then maybe the issue for them rests within this area.


All diagnoses' are is an attempt to channel down the possible known or considered options and thus ground your particular practice may have to work within.

There are some commonalities around the specific symptomology experienced within specific diagnoses' (assuming of course the diagnosis considered is correct. Thats not always the case at all)...so basically its about whittling down the parametres and honing down on what may be the issue and what treatment methods may be applicable.

Even then - in the end the actual GUTS of *treatment* is about focussing on the persons symptomology - NOT their particular diagnosis. And additionally to that whatever symptomology the person actually has an issue with.
Just because someone hears things or sees things or whatever doesn't by default make them 'unwell'. If they are doing fine and dandy with those things, then sweet as, go for gold I say!
Who am I (regardless of experience/quals etc) to dictate to them what their *reality* is. I'm not them. My role is to merely assist with whatever they themselves may identify they wish assistance with.


Again - that is by NO means without some pretty major flaws...and any Mental Health professional worth their salt and honest will tell you mistakes are indeed made. Try as we might not to, mistakes are made.

The head-kicker with that is when mistakes are made it affects PEOPLES LIVES. Thats another thing any real Mental Health Professional should hold firm and foremost in EVERYTHING they do and consider. The realty is if they make a wrong call someone will suffer for it. You can't just hit the *backspace* key and erase it.


I'm talking from experience and practice here in New Zealand, which is quite similar to the UK.
And absolutely those whom I work with, from the Social Workers, to the Nurse Aids, to the Orderlies, to the Nurses, to the Registrars, Psychologists, Psychiatrists predominately approach their practice from a wide variety of perspectives.

They approach it not from a position of "I know. I am God. You shall do what I say"
Rather we predominately approach our specific practice from the perspective that the person themselves is the key driver, is the expert, is the one who at all times needs to remain as the holder of power (well, the Mental Health Act can at times, circumvent that...but generally the prinicipal focus in on recognising and respecting the persons own inherent autonomy)


I say predominately as certainly thats not always the case...and really, just my own opinion working within the system and with other clinical professional for so long, those who don't operate with the above understanding tend to do so NOT due to that mindset being part of their practice...rather its simply who they are as a person and would operate with a similar 'holier than thou' approach regardless of if they were a clinical professional or a car-sales person.




Peace.

Am I the only one realizing that this thread just continues to go in circles and cirlces and circles?



It's nice when a sort of consensus starts to form through conversation, then suddenly new people enter the discussion without reading through the entire thread and sets us back another decade in discussion.

Any way I'll say this.

Don't take your doctors word for it, don't take your friends word for it. Just think independability because what ever you decide to put in your mouth is up to YOU.

Some people absolutely need medication to survive because the problem is with their bodies. Such as diabetes obviously and various other conditions.

Other people are stupid enough to take medication for something easily reversible through a change in diet or nutritional supplementation.

DRUGS ARE NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR NUTRIENTS.

Again, I find it retarded when people go to the doctor or take their kid in because he/she has a flu and needs meds to cover the symptoms

But hey, doesn't affect me what you do with your life. Make your own decisions please.

And as others are saying; try not to be soley stuck to one side of the argument. Doctors or random nut jobs, or medication or naturopathy, as much as I hate our western medicinal system, if it's helping some people, then it would be just stupid not to have it.

I agree that people should do research, and be informed about their health -- any doctor worth his salt will tell you that. But the problem is where people are doing their research. ATS is not a suitable place to do medical research, nor is any other forum where you get medical opinions from laymen.

The only scientific way to research your health condition(s) is to find scientific studies and clinical trials regarding your condition(s), or to ask the opinion of someone who is medically trained on your condition(s).

In addition, I agree that it's criminal to tell people not to take their medications. Unless you're a medical doctor, it's illegal for you to give medical advice. The moderators should remove any post doing so.

reply to post by tomtom


My depression lasted almost a decade. Granted, I was a single father of two small kids at the time. It was almost debilitating with all the traditional somatic conditions. I have worked in an acute, inpatient lock down unit, an outpatient crisis center for the SPMI population, and I currently work as an on call outreach worker and full time for the county jail with the incarcerated SPMI population. I work with the mental health court system here in the state as well. Intense at times. A lot of comorbid drug addiction, that's for sure. Not your "normal" depressed soccer moms.

You are right, there is a HUGE difference between acute and chronic depression (or other mental illness). Most of us will deal with acute bouts at one time or another in our lives, mostly situational and transitory. I probably should have been on medication, but I had two little boys to raise by myself and I couldn't afford the doc or the meds. I also have a family history of diabetes. I was kinda freaked by the studies...

I workout a lot and watch my diet, mostly fruits and veggies with occasional meat. Little alcohol, no drugs. I still feel the depression creeping up and the bottom falls out occasionally BUT I both of my boys are in college now and I do work with a stressful population. I play a lot and try and enjoy life as it comes along. I don't enjoy the doom and gloom as much anymore!!

I am leaning toward embracing medication as a viable treatment with this (jail) population. It is standard practice in the penal system, after a short detox period to determine baseline. I just wish they would knock off the drug abuse. It's hard to find and treat baseline symptoms with all the drug issues clouding them.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
without the drugs she would never have suceeded with the therapy.

The above echoes my personal experience exactly.

I have a big problem with how overprescribed certain medications are (especially the SSRI antidepressants, antibiotics, and ADHD drugs, but not limited to those).

When I talk to someone whose general practitioner is recommending antidepressants (the only medication I have personal experience with) I always recommend that they ask for a referral to a psychiatrist and/or counselor.

Why? for one thing, because antidepressant prescriptions are tricky. As has been said in this thread by the anti-pill crowd, they don't know exactly how they work, or have direct tests that can determine which will work. It's not like antibiotics, where you can pretty much look up a condition in the Physicians Desk Reference and be told which antibiotic to use at what dosage for how long.

But that doesn't mean they don't work, and having to try two or three before you find one that does work is to my mind infinitely preferable to a lifetime of major depression.

The second reason is that studies have shown that neither therapy alone nor medication alone is as successful in treating major depression as the combination of the two. If you have had major depression for any period of time, there is a good chance that you will have developed habits both of body and mind that require outside help and support to overcome.

One problem with recommending that people with depression do their own research before taking antidepressants is that in my experience this may not be possible. When I am in the midst of a major depression, my brain does not work normally. I cannot think straight, I cannot connect thoughts rationally, I cannot overcome the weight of "it's just too hard" long enough to do the research.

When I first start a course of antidepressants, very often I will feel "worse" instead of better, as my head clears a bit and the numbness starts to go away. I will feel the anguish that I'm in rather than just sensing it. I will begin to be able to make and carry through plans (for instance, take a shower every day and walk at least 20 minutes outside) that are impossible without the medication. After a couple weeks on the antidepressants, I will start to feel more connected to the world. Having a conversation won't be quite such a strain and I may be able to start the process of actual healing through therapy and other non-pharmaceutic means.

It starts when I marshall the energy and will to call for help and follow through, and I consider that to be the real turning point.

But the next crucial step is taking the pills and letting them make the rest of it possible. Don't get me wrong, it's still not easy. The pills don't make me happy, and they have side effects I wish weren't there. But I fully believe that without them, I would not have survived this long, certainly not without institutionalization. I would not have been able to quit drinking and maintain and develop my sobriety, since drinking myself into a stupor was the only escape I had. I would not have been able to go back to school, would not have been able to meet my fiance -- or in fact build a healthy relationship with anyone. The pills didn't do these things for me, that took a lot of mental and spiritual work on my own and with therapists, friends, and family. But they have been a prerequisite for that work.

I think both sides of the argument suffer from looking for a one-size-fits-all solution to a complex problem that affects everyone differently.

reply to post by LiquidLight


So true.

Anyone who has had experience with either modern anti-depressants or ecstasy for that matter would never claim that they're the same thing or even produce close to the same effects.

I understand the sentiment that dugs are a "quick fix" and that that's wrong. I agree with that to a degree. They're also a valuable tool though.

As to the "it's not natural" argument, how "natural" do these people claim we should be? Drugs are nothing but technology, and where do you draw the line?

I realize that some people's conception of how these drugs are made is that petroleum and sulfur are boiled down with a sprinkling of asbestos on top, but very often many drugs are simply isolated enzymes or proteins from various plants or animals that have a known effect on a particular biological system.

Originally posted by americandingbat
When I first start a course of antidepressants, very often I will feel "worse" instead of better, as my head clears a bit and the numbness starts to go away. I will feel the anguish that I'm in rather than just sensing it.

I had side effects to when I first started, mainly lethargy, drowsiness (this is why the mental health doc I went to told me to take them just before bed time) mild headaches and vivid dreams.

After about 3 weeks, all these symptons had all dissapeared, and I was able to think clearly. Now after a year, Im able to think much clearer and handle life, much easier.

Maybe the initial feelings from starting anti-depressants are why people think they are terribel for you. I cant see many against them, that have tried medication for an extended period of at least a few months....although I may have missed that

The Toolbox analogy is so true. The best anyone can do is to fill their own toolbox with all that is available, then to weed through their inventory and use what works best for them, be it prescription medications, professional therapy, alternative methodologies, natural remedies, and God. Faith is perhaps the most valuable tool in one's inventory.

Peace and Love

I just watched a ad for an asthma medication called Advair or something


It followed many of the same styles of such commercials accentuating the positive but at the end they said this



In some individuals Advair may increase the chances of asthma related death, you should consult with your doctor and see if your asthma symptoms are well controlled



I was like What! Taking and asthma medication could actually increase the chances of asthma realted death...........my god

Then it got me thinking how many other products only temporarily give relief from symptoms only to make it worse in the end by the nature of the ingredients in them.

Take chapstick for example, or lotion for dry skin and read the ingredients some are worse than others but geez...its no wonder you have to keep buying these products over and over again cause they don't really cure anything and in many case only exaserbate the situation.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Soulfear]

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Avoid taking medications unless it is a last resort and only if the recommendation is seconded by at least two other medical doctors AND you have done some investigating into what treatments other people have used for this same condition and how they worked for them.

Chances are good your medication will be recalled in a few months because of some deadly side affects that were missed. 1-800-BAD-DRUG It is insane how little tests are actually done on these dangerous chemicals before they are PUSHED ON TO THE PUBLIC with little more class and caution than any other dope dealer peddling his junk.

Death by prescription drug overdose and interaction has over taken auto accidents as the leading cause of death in the US. To continue to tell people to "take their medicine" in light of these shocking statistics is I think very irresponsible but admittedly.... the pharmaceutical companies love it.

If your body relies on a drug to do this or that for it -there is a real possibility your body's ability to ever take on that task for itself will be compromised.

If you are extremely unstable and have mental issues you need to deal with first try vigorous exercise on a daily basis, like running or fast walking. Couple this with a healthy lifestyle eliminating soda and junk food that can clog your system and impede healing. Stay away from sugar corn syrup and white flour products because many people have very unstable reactions from these products, resulting in artificial highs and lows. They result in causing havoc on the delicate bio-system - designed by nature to heal itself - when all impediments to healing are removed.

Occasionally you will need actual pharmaceutical medications.
Anti-biotics and what not. Take those as directed. Always research your own condition online and get a few opinions before taking anything.

If after all else fail you decide to take anti-depressants (which guarantees a doctor a steady client since you will need to be monitored and tested repeatedly) plan to take these drugs indefinitely.

Never stop taking them no matter how much better you think you feel. Always have your doctor close and family members on alert for possible side effects if you decrease dosage of any of these drugs. You will be tempted to take your life and perhaps that of others as well if these drugs are discontinued suddenly.

You have lost what small protection your brain ever had to combat the depression and suicidal tendencies by relying on the drug.

I know three people recently who were misdiagnosed. One for breast cancer, another for hepatitis c, and the third had her thyroid removed when it was unnecessary - she had another problem altogether.





[edit on 22-2-2010 by rusethorcain]

One thing for sure is that many are practicing medicine without a license on the Internet. They should be held liable for any damages that result from their giving of medical advice, including death.

If you give medical advice you should all be held fully liable for the results. An MD is held liable, you should be also.

Every time anyone on the Internet gives medical advise, you should also give your full name and location so people know who to blame and who to sue if you are wrong. Anyone not doing so is a fraud and a phony and should never be trusted.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

Avoid taking medications unless it is a last resort and only if the recomendation is seconded by at least two other medical doctors.
Chances are good your medication will be recalled in a few months because of some deadly side affects that were missed.

I did, and I saw three doctors before I decided that I wanted to try anti-depressants (I had to answer 2 mental healht questionnares too). I used my medication over a year and it was never recalled, and is still in operation now. I explained the minor side effects in my previous post.

If your body relies on a drug to do this or that for it -there is a real possibility your body's ability to ever take on that task for itself will be compromised.

So far so good

If you are extremely unstable and have mental issues you need to deal with first try vigorous exercise on a daily basis, like running or fast walking.

I played an intense sport all through my depression (Australian Rules Football). I played prior to the onset and still play, as well as go to the gym daily

Occasionally you will need actual pharmaceutical medications.
Anti-biotics and what not. Take those as directed. Always research your own condition online and get a few opinions before taking anything.

Yep, I did all of those

I know threee people recently who were misdiagnosed. One for breast cancer, another for hepatitis c, and the third was told she had to have her thyroid removed when it was unnecessary and she had another problem altogether.

Exactly why the need for more than one opinion is beneficial. Although in mental health terms or any situation where a prescription drug might be prescribed, it is critical to speak to the right people. My GP actually referred me to a mental health centre rather than prescribe anything straight off

I understand the OP's upset. If he feels it helped him, then it helped him. This counts.

But being myself indeed strongly opposed to psychiatric drugs, let me explain why:

A friend of my wife was forced to start taking psychiatric drugs and has not stopped with them until today. Since she started, she has literally turned into a zombie, lost her work, is absent minded and now lives on social welfare. I can compare. I have seen "before" and I am seeing "after".

Psychiatry is simply bad science. They do not really understand biochemistry and the importance of nutrition. It is no wonder that the web abounds with criticism.

But depression occurs. So ARE there better solutions? YES! Just a few days ago I found the website of a UK medical doctor. And this woman KNOWS her natural sciences!! She has dedicated an entire page to depression. This is mandatory reading for everybody interested in the subject:

"There is a general assumption that depression is a psychological symptom, but this is not so. My experience is that the majority of depression has a physical cause and once that is conquered, apparently insurmountable psychological problems are much more easily dealt with."

Depression - diagnosis and treatment

Also check out the rest of her website, full of excellent advice for different diseases.

Bottom line: I prefer working science over opinion and propaganda. Especially when it comes to my own (mental) health.

I will agree with the OP that no one on here has the right to tell me or anyone else what they can and should put into our bodies. However this is the point. I can trust who I want to tell me what I put into me. I have a mistrust of doctors who get massive kickbacks for medicating me. I have a mistrust of food companies taking extreme/unhealthy cost cutting measures. I mistrust the fluoride industry with all of the evidence against it's safety.

I will not trust anyone on this board(no offence) at least at face value. However, I will only trust the OP as much or as little as I trust the others. I won't, as I said, trust doctors making money off of medicating me.

I will take everything I read and hear, do my own research, and make my own opinions. No one, not ATS posters, OR doctors, have the right to tell me what I can and can't put into my body.

I alone make that decision.