Would Germans still be ashamed for wwr2 ?

reply to post by Long Lance


I read the post, however what gets me is the fact he stipulated that they will never change and need to be watched, regardless of the fact that the current generation were not involved in the war. The pre WW2 socia-economic climate led to that situation, the current generation didn't cause it. By his logic they are all bad people, i'm sorry if i don't want to have a small world view and make a comment without acknowledging what has been done by the nationality of people percieved to be entirely righteous/making this oppinion irregardless of the fact they no doubt weren't privy to have grown up under the context of a pre-WW2 world . Yes the war was won by the US, but the current socia-economic climate (not to menton the numerous conspiracy theories behind 09/11 & US intention behind the Irag/Afganny war etc) can be seen as a parallel of what occured then but in the 21st century (the burning of the Reichstag by a percieved threat to Germany to validate Hitlers move to power as Chancellor). Things change and are governed by context. Prescot Bush traded with Nazi's, interesting right?

What i'm saying is that any country has the capacity for great good or Evil, human nature has yet to show otherwise, This is driven by ideological and social changes, these factors are further driven by the global socia-economic context of the time. This can create WW2 type situations, not the individual people of the country and not 65 years on, therefore why does the current generation need to be ashamed? Germany saves the relics of this time (the death camps, the bullet holes that can be found in the walls of many Berlin buildings, check point charlie) as a reminder to the human capacity for this to have occured.



[edit on 21-2-2010 by relap0]

[edit on 21-2-2010 by relap0]

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by felonius

 

Time to put a end to this discussion is the German military limited yes go and check wikipedia for yourself and as German you should pick up a book and know the history. And by the way it is called:


Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany



Go and look it for yourself they can only have a standing army of 370,000 that is it. I love how people argue personal truth without even thinking about looking at the facts.

this is all fine and good. 370k isnt bad. You need to remember. If shtf and the Fatherland calls, that number will grow much larger.

They were under "restrictions" prior to ww2 as well. It took the WORLD AND the russian barbarians to stop the machine.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by swecret

 

Its the people that live in Germany and Japan. They are like doctor jekyll and mister Hyde. They can be peace loving under one leader and war mongers under another. History has showed us this time and time again. If they get the right leader at the right time they will do it again. We must always watch them and watch them closely.

It is a testament to the people they are hard working and single minded and can be super strong when they need it strong enough to take on many countries at once. We should learn from history and ww2 and ww1 were hard lessons.

The German army in ww2 was one of the best fighting forces the earth has ever seen. The kids grew up as soldiers and they would fight to the death and not even think twice. Germany truly has a strong people that if given the chance will take over the world or try to again.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

You are a fool, racism covered in a veil of praise I think.

Why can't anyone from any country/race be persuaded to do bad things if they are convinced enough? Just the Germans...

Adolf Hitler had the ability to take Germany out of one of the worst depressions ever and make it an economic powerhouse...and also put food on many Germans tables.

Not only did he have the tongue to catch the fish, he was able to follow through and give Germans a sense of power themselves through the growth of Germany.

Unfortunately, this resulted in the holocaust and war.

What do they really have to feel bad about?

6 Million Jews didn't die it was actually less than 300,000.

Jews were the main people responsible for the transatlantic slave trade killing over 200 million blacks and also took part of the death in over another 200 million Natives / Hispanics.

75% of Jewish households owned slaves compared to 35% of regular whites.

So Jews killed and enslaved over 400 million people and and Hitler killed less than 300,000.

Also Hitler knew who the real Jews were. These Jews are Khazars and not actually Jews from the Bible.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by felonius

 

Time to put a end to this discussion is the German military limited yes go and check wikipedia for yourself and as German you should pick up a book and know the history. And by the way it is called:


Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany



Go and look it for yourself they can only have a standing army of 370,000 that is it. I love how people argue personal truth without even thinking about looking at the facts.

this is all fine and good. 370k isnt bad. You need to remember. If shtf and the Fatherland calls, that number will grow much larger.

They were under "restrictions" prior to ww2 as well. It took the WORLD AND the russian barbarians to stop the machine.

reply to post by EndOfTheWorld7


But wich is the really main reason or was why Hitler hated the jews so deeply ??

[edit on 21-2-2010 by swecret]

Originally posted by swecret

But wich is the really main reason or was why Hitler hated the jews so deeply ??

Maybe he saw what they were trying to do, which is take over the world under the name of Israel which is not theirs.

Now Hitler lost and Jews own the world.

Google Video Link

Originally posted by blerk
I'm close friends with a german girl in her early 20s and I've talked with her on this matter. She told me that even in school german students are reminded of world war 2 and made to feel a certain sense of shame. It's amazing how well the allies' propaganda machine continues to work.

[edit on 20/2/10 by blerk]

If we do not learn from our mistakes, we are doomed for eternity to repeat them. Of course there is shame there. What happened was terrible. It is human nature to be ashamed even if YOUR generation didnt do it. I am ashamed at how my ancestors dealt with the slaves and that was even further back. Humans doing horrible things to other humans is terrible and way to many forget that. Any intentional loss of life is terrible no matter what. There is alot to be ashamed about. The human race would go so much further if we actually stopped being stupid.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

Most germans feel as if they have nothing to feel sorry for. I meen most people in the ww2 era are now dead, the people today were not the ones of the past. and yet most people still feel as if they were the marching nazis in ww2. But alot of people like to only blame other countries, england and america are two of the main. America with there native american slaughter and the england with ireland, ever hear of bloody sunday. All countries have a background of murder and horrible event, its best to remember them, but do not condem anymore.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


you are ignorant. you have the nazi's confused with regular germans.

my great granddad was put in a concentration camp and he wasn't even jewish.

the problem was the nazi movement not the german people.

you are disgusting

Originally posted by swecret
reply to post by EndOfTheWorld7

 

But wich is the really main reason or was why Hitler hated the jews so deeply ??

[edit on 21-2-2010 by swecret]

Hitler fought beside patriotic jews during the war. His issue was that many others were buying into the bolshevik BS and rotting the wehrmacht from the inside with propaganda. The lack of morale caused by the equivolent of Hanoi Hannah.

"You should give up. Your wives are shaggin the neighbor. You cant win. People at home are starving." That kind of crap.

WW1 was expected by all to be a small "skirmish" to release tension. When everybody and their brother got in, it changed.

This was compounded by the desire to crush Germany as a world power.
Take out the competition.

The stories of English officers being a 100 miles from the front telling the Tommy's to charge machine gun nests! Yeah. That took guts. Too bad there wasnt an "Anzio Annie" round that found these SOB's!

Had Imperial Germany kicked everyones ass, history would have been vastly different. The influx of non-european blood would have been nixed as well.

The Nazi movement did have some bright points. Corruption at the top (Himmler-Goebels) ruins most things.

My Great and Grand Fathers fought our own kind back then. I'll just put it to listening to propaganda. I dont believe I would have if positions were reversed. I have the benefit of history that they didnt.

[edit on 21/2/10 by felonius for clarification]

[edit on 21/2/10 by felonius]

Originally posted by swecret
Would Germans still be ashamed for wwr2 ?..or have they paid ther debt to the world..or if so why is the americans still punish them by having their military bases there..and denying them their own military defence ?

No, they should not !!!. They've paid dearly and for a long time. Enough is enough.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
Germany can never and I mean never have it own fighting force that is not watched closely by the US. They lost and so did Japan for that matter. They are lucky we let them live there at all after the war I would have put them on ships and said go settle somewhere else that would really send a message.

And to everyone who thinks that this is way to harsh take a look at what they did to there neighbors in that time period. It would be doing nothing less than what they did. We won they lost end of story and if the want to kick us out and rebuild so be it we will see what happens in another 10 years.

Do you really believe the bs that's coming out of your mouth (fingers)? They were lucky and YOU (WE) let them live? Who is WE? Is the same WE who took the worst and most criminal Nazis through Paperclip and brought them in the States? Makes one wonder if they really lost :p History is full of invading armies and hostile countries. Take Rome, Turkey... etc. Countless were the atrocities committed during their invasions and wars. And is up to us to learn from it and not act with the same cruelty and barbarism in condemning. So it's very stupid to make such remarks. What you're saying makes you worst then nazis. And don't forget something that maybe you don't know. Is true that Germany doesn't have an army but has been and always be an economic superpower. Guns are for bullies, brains are for geniuses.

reply to post by Telos


Germany has an army, a pretty cool one at that.

I mean an uncontrolled army.

reply to post by SLAYER69


To right.

If Hitler had that equipment (most of today's was based off Nazi designs anyway) the world would be a lot different.. perhaps no war.

Germany should not feel ashamed at what happened they stood against the world in what could be described as the most valiant fight against the world..ever

and they very nearly won had they destroyed the british and french forces in Dunkirk,bombed the RAF airfields instead of cities and then invaded thus severing supply chains between the USA,Russia and the UK, as well as having a assurance that japan would not attack the USA until Britain had fallen..then ther eis a 85% likelihood the world would of been coloured red and black right about now with a little bit of yellow for Japan.

Although had they won i may never of been born as my mum's father who was a bomber pilot may of been killed on an air raid in Berlin or Dresden, or my dad's father who joined the British SS corps in Germany and fought in many battles from France to the Fall of Berlin where he was captured by the Red Army but released 1 year later. He loves telling me about the stories of war and the women in France and Germany although he rarely speaks of the Fall of Berlin he tends to cry.

They(Germany) voted for a man they could trust who was charismatic,likeable,handsome
a bit like America today...




[edit on 17/05/09 by Raider of Truth]

reply to post by swecret


It's very difficult to answer because of the high sensitivity of the issue and because some accepted facts or account of events are maybe not so accurate.

I suggest if you are asked the question and want to live a quiet and happy life that you stick to the "common" wisdom that he was a horribly hateful man

I will give a subjective opinion. You should look more into it if you are interested to forge your own. There is no simple answer.

Antisemitism was widespread in Europe in the early XXth century. I use the term as prejudice towards people of Jewish faith so don't pick on me over what is a semite you all. Europe has been in political and social instability yet prior to WW1. Then the Great War and the Great Depression sent Europe into more instability and hard times. Jews were a distinctive group with some proeminent succesful individuals. Men have apparently the weakness to blame loose groups they are ignorant of for their own misery. Jews were not necessarily targetted individually though they sometimes were but it was the kind of "conventional wisdom" or socially accepted behavior to blame them for such and such, very similarly to how Muslims are blamed today while the overwhelming majority of them are the regular innocent and peaceful folk.

To what extend Hitler really hated Jews and tought of them as an inferior "race" is uncertain. He was not himself the Aryan type.
To what extend did he only use the subject of Jews to please his audience is uncertain. It was efficient politically.
Hitler was a populist and a demagogue.
A populist tries to appeal to the people by blaming their problems on small vested interest groups. The discourse is not consistent and the target of discontent evolves alongside the concerns of the people. The discourse is supposed to please their ears not to hold any truth. He has blamed the governement, the banks, the communists, the homosexuals, the Poles, the Gypsies, the Jews, etc...
A demagogue tries to appeal to the people emotions and passion. Hitler made his way by "uniting" the German people against faked enemies and irrational threats. One stereotype about Jews was that they were all Bolsheviks conspiring to seize power like in Russia. This conspiracy theory is still popular, you can stumble over bits of it in ATS. It's notable because the Nazi Party was strongly antimarxist, antibolsheviks.

What is conveniently "forgotten" today is how eugenics under different conceptions was a well accepted idea amongst educated people and leaders. No doubt there were biologically superior and inferior human beings so in order to speed up the process of nature, it appeared "common sense" that educated superior people should help nature's work. It's interesting some Darwinists viewed Jews as a superior race. Could it be it's all in the eye of the beholder ? When Chancellor, Hitler appeared actually moderate to many in Europe and in the US. We conveniently break down today that people at that time were brainwashed or stupid or whatever and we are satisfied with this explanation like we are satisfied to conclude that Hitler was "crazy" but actually people commonly shared the same views and believed eugenics was an attractive modern concept logically following Darwin theories.

Some here will challenge the 6 million figure, the number may be inflated, anyway I believe it is in the range of millions which is desperately high. Other groups of people were persecuted, Poles, a sub-race, were to be anihilated, Himmler's quote. Many groups were dubbed inferior in the Nazi doctrine, Jews being the larger persecuted group I think. Hitler didn't only hate Jews, he hated a lot of people that he actually maybe didn't hate really but regarded as inferior. He was making a favor to mankind to help it progress as a better race and speed up evolution.

I believe this could happen again by very benevolent people thinking they are really in their right mind to do so.

It´s very interesting to read the many replies in the thread..but i will take the question a bit further..

Can it be some links in how US controlling the today German forces and, how the jews are controlling the US government.. or is it a way to progressive question ??

reply to post by swecret


I think both don't exist in that simple way. It is not the USA controlling the German forces, but the allies, who negotiated with Germany, what could be accepted by all after the reunification.
And it is not Israel controlling the USA, but maybe USA being too soft with an ally in the Near East, to controle that region.

For your former question: I am not ashamed about WWII, but I am ashamed for the unbelievable horrific murders - which is different from feeling guilty or even responsible.
Long time I looked at old people with the question in my head, what they did do back then. But now there are not many left, who could have been part of the crimes. And it somehow makes me feel relieved.

I am still allergic against paroles against other groups - like the Moslems - or seeing avatars, which look like old propaganda posters.

The rest of the time I am waiting for a chance to conquer the world.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by Siddharta]