Would Germans still be ashamed for wwr2 ?

Originally posted by swecret
Would Germans still be ashamed for wwr2 ?..or have they paid ther debt to the world..or if so why is the americans still punish them by having their military bases there..and denying them their own military defence ?

I am German by blood. Volksdeutsche.

Are Germans ashamed? Not if they still have a pair! The governments are still beating the kids up with demands that they remain self-loathing for "what was done".

I wont even go into the pathetic Nazi hunting jews that scream anytime any 90+ former wehrmacht is found. I used to think the "zionist" stuff was just a bunch of crap. Not so sure anymore.

No, I dont hate all jews. Only the liberal hollywood types. The "I'm better than you because I'm jewish" crap. Honestly, I dont care for anyone like that.

I digress.

Had it not been for the cowardly French, ww1 wouldnt have happened. No ww1, then Germany wouldnt have been thrown into such a economic crap hole. Hitler offered the people a return to honor and prosperity...and retaliation against those that caused all the hell in Germany.

Honestly, I would have prefered having an Imperial Germany. Beautiful places like Berlin, Munchen and Dresden would still retain all of their former glory. I've no love for soviet barbarians for sure.

The bases in Germany? That is no more punishment than any other nation having a frontline base in any other place.

Denied military defense? Try Germany being 7th largest military as well as one of the most modern. The morale is just crap as I understand.

As for you Subjective Truth, well. I'm not even sure how to respond to you. Run Germans out of the Fatherland? It took ALL of Europe And the USA to do what was done.

Be at ease though. It seems more and more cross breeding is being done nowadays. The liberals are bringing in non Germans left and right. The attempt to breed out anything Germanic is well underway. The Northlands are ALL under assault.

They are still ashamed IMO. I work in a hotel and when there is a busload of them coming, the common joke is " the Germans are invading us... again " .
However, the Germans have proved their repent by becoming the world's 3rd economy until the year 2000 (circa) .

We should take a look at the Spanish, who 70 years after their Civil War, still bear the scars of their parents and families. Their people is traumatized by that, think about whole families torn apart by Republicans or Nationalists beliefs, eventually ending up in Spanish-on-Spanish murder and atrocity.

We Europeans carry a lot of guilt for the past, but we try to look at the future. I mean, I hope so. Looking behind and trying to apologize for everything we did wrong ( remember the Pope apologizing for the rusades? ) is not a good way of building the future.

Originally posted by MattMulder


We should take a look at the Spanish, who 70 years after their Civil War, still bear the scars of their parents and families. Their people is traumatized by that, think about whole families torn apart by Republicans or Nationalists beliefs, eventually ending up in Spanish-on-Spanish murder and atrocity.

Yeah I agree that is a part of history that gets overlooked quite often.

A lot of people consider the Spanish civil war as a important precursor to ww2. It is very complex and dense information. I would have to study it for many hours to get a good idea of it's roots and effects.

I am aware that many foreign powers got involved, including random fighters supporting the competing ideals.

I know most Historians do not usually consider the eventual Fascist Spain an outright Axis nation, but there is evidence to show that many Spanish nationalists joined up for service on the Axis sides. (And obviously there were people helping the Allies, but initially it appears to be to a lesser extent, while later in the war support for the Allies increased a lot).

Ok I found a source linked to more sources that backs up what I just said.
"This was accepted by Hitler and, within two weeks, there were more than enough volunteers to form a division - the Blue Division or División Azul under Agustín Muñoz Grandes - including an air force squadron - the Blue Squadron. The Blue Division trained in Germany and served, with distinction, in the Siege of Leningrad, notably at the Battle of Krasny Bor, where General Infantes with 6,000 men threw back some 30,000 Soviet troops."
en.wikipedia.org...

This kind of backs up what I was saying earlier about how Hitler had international support, and many people worldwide had great faith in him and the ideals he represented. Once people saw the madness of ww2 though, sentiments obviously changed. The survivors were obviously quite disturbed by it all, I can't even imagine.

There were even American citizens who went to Germany and joined the military forces. He was getting support from all over the world.

Originally posted by felonius
Had it not been for the cowardly French, ww1 wouldnt have happened. No ww1, then Germany wouldnt have been thrown into such a economic crap hole. Hitler offered the people a return to honor and prosperity...and retaliation against those that caused all the hell in Germany.

Just to pick you up on your remarkably inaccurate statement about the cause of WW1 where the "cowardly" French lost 1.4 million solidiers and a further 300,000 civilians killed.

The catalyst for the war was the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, in Sarajevo on 28 June 1914 by a Serbian nationalist.

- Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia
- Russia was bound by a Treaty to Serbia and mobilised
- Germany bound by Treaty to Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia
- France bound by Treaty to Russia declared war on Germany and Germany reacted by invading Belgium
- Great Britain bound by Treaty to France decalred against Germany and moved to support the invaded Belgium...

WW2 was caused by Hitler's Germany invading everyone. I don't buy the excuse mentality which says he did it because this, that and the other.

This is a plea to research history.

Regards

It could have happened anywhere. And atrocities of this magnitude have happened elsewhere.

If we were a truly free world, truly civilised, we would teach the rise of Hitler, the real story, how the world loved and admired him, how his name equated to modernity, who funded him worldwide, who supported him worldwide, the eugenics programs worldwide and who funded these programs.
We have chosen instead to portray a lone evil character. We can blame everything on him. Keep it simple, he was "bad" and "crazy".
Hitler is a very good case to study subjectivity in history.

In regards to the Catholic Church, its attitude started being more and more ambivalent while Hitler was gaining in power and control. But by ideology, Vatican was an opponent to the Nazis, notably because of the eugenics views.
It was incorrectly stated that had the Catholic party not dissolved, Hitler wouldn't have been elected. Zentrum, the Catholic Party, was dissolved a few years after Hitler became Chancellor. Of course you will find catholics including priests that had supported the NSDAP, it's never all black or all white. NSDAP was nationalist and anticommunist which may have appealed to them. Communists are strong atheists.
The Vatican version of history is that they sometimes compromised in order to protect the German catholics.
Catholics were a religious minority persecuted by the Nazis. Search for Night of the long knives/Marburg speech/Franz von Papen/Erich Klausener as an exemple. Vatican officially condemned the Nazi ideology before WW2.
Southern Europe fascists states, Italy, Portugal, Spain have never implemented any eugenics or euthanasia policy. They are all strongly catholic.
Predominantly Protestant countries, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, all have had a eugenics policy by sterilisation. The UK didn't have any but it's well-known Chamberlain and Churchill to keep the list short were supporters of eugenics.
It's a large ideological fracture line between Catholics and Protestants and one that made Vatican and Nazis irreconcilable.

The Catholic Church also has dark sides that can be denounced. In this particular period of history in Germany, Catholics were killed, jailed, deported... Not the best period to build a case against Catholics.

I believe it is extremely important to understand the fight and alliances between ideologies of late XIX/early XX as our world nowadays is the continuation of those struggles.

reply to post by Fromabove


LOL. If I were you I'd try and read a history book once in a while.

I mean I get the point that Hitler and Obama are both inspirational speakers, but that's about all. Obama was elected democratically.

Oh, never mind, I'm not going to waste my time composing a long list of differences. Comparing them is just rubbish.

reply to post by felonius


Make sure to give Guido von List a kiss from me.

My god, teh stoopid.

Time for lunch.

On a trip to Frankfurt last year, I was quite surprised at the amount of times the people I met brought up the war and even felt some guilt. These were young German people I was talking to. I don't believe they should still feel guilt, but losing 2 world wars and a Holocaust and Nazism is quite a large scar on the nation and still pretty fresh in memories.

Are the Russian ashamed of Afghanistan? are the French ashamed of the Napoleonic wars? What About the Japanese? The Spanish and South America?
The North Koreans? the Brits? the Yanks?(mexico, panama, etc)

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Not to compare Hitler and Obama but Hitler was chosen Chancellor "democratically". That's the interesting part.

reply to post by Manouche


No he wasn't. He was made Reich Chancellor democratically (more or less). But that was about all that he achieved by "popular consent".

But I have realized over the years that most Americans somehow believe that Hitler was elected and given all his powers by the people - that's just poppycock.

reply to post by felonius

Time to put a end to this discussion is the German military limited yes go and check wikipedia for yourself and as German you should pick up a book and know the history. And by the way it is called:


Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany



Go and look it for yourself they can only have a standing army of 370,000 that is it. I love how people argue personal truth without even thinking about looking at the facts.

reply to post by SLAYER69


love that tank, speed, firepower and armour.perfect

reply to post by Subjective Truth


yeah the germans were only allowed a limited army under the treaty of versailles after world war 1.
100,000 men split between the army and navy.

we all know that they didnt stick to the rules, and nobody did anything about it.if the germans wanted to rearm again, and this time they are our still our allies nobody would do a thing to stop them.
hell if iran kicked off and things got ugly down there usa and uk would probably plead with them to re-arm.

reply to post by hans kammler



Another poster said they had no limitations on them and that is a lie. I agree we should never trust them again that is why we have military bases over there and are sworn to defend them because we will not let them have a army of more than 370,000 troops. They would and could do it on there own but we will not let them and Japan is in the same boat.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


we had to have bases in germany becuase of the cold war, west germany was the initial point of invasion for the soviets.
though our bases also reminded the germans who won the war, and whos side they are on.
the reds have gone home, but we are still there in their country armed to the teeth. you just cant forget 2 world wars, no matter how many generations ago it is.
the germans may rearm one day though, as part of a unified european army, or in response to a major war involving nato. but even then we would still keep those bases.
we will see how the european union turns out, its just the fourth reich in another name.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by hans kammler]

Of course they shouldn't. German people today have nothing to be ashamed of, yes they should remember what happened but "ashamed"? not at all as they had nothing to do with it. And even during WW2 only a small minority of germans would be considered nazi's, the rest were simple soldiers like those of countries today.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


We do agree then I didn't say he was elected but he became Chancellor through what was understood as a democratic process.
But I see why you make this clarification, it's important.

I think that maybe what we see today as functionning democracies will not be viewed in the future as very democratic or very functionning. Hitler was backed by industrialists who used their ressources and influence to help him rise up to power. It's a minority that decides for the rest of the populace, us useless eaters, and it has always been in my understanding.
That said, Hitler still had a large base of voters.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


Is that Avatar signature meant to tie in with the movie or your post? " We are Germans, we look peaceful, however our genetics dicatate that we are facist people who will kill at no cost." Propaganda buddy, propaganda which should have died by the late 50's at best.

As stipulated before in the thread, what happened in pre-WW2 Europe, particularly Germany was the culmination of the socio-economic climate of the time. Hitler inspired hope, he created the concept of many economic programs aimed at reform of a crippled country, an example of this and the current structual basis of super highways/freeways, the Auto-bahn, created purely to create jobs. Not supporting what occured during the war (absolute power corrupts absolutely), however to pin it down to the creed of a man is specious. What happened in Germany, if not for it occuring there, would have occured at another point in time at another region of the world. The world at that point had been, in simple terms, split by far left ideas of Communism and right ideas of Facism, both fundamentally the same outcome politically and for the ones who succeed in power. Hitler offered a solution, not all people wanted the solution however others believed in it.

Russia, China and the US have all endorsed genocides directly or indirectly (the death tolls of which are outstanding) since that time and yet are still super powers which govern our current society. Our current socia-economic climate is currently similar to that of pre- WW2, yet I don't see the vicious blood sucking Germans coming to get you?

All men are created equally.



[edit on 21-2-2010 by relap0]

Originally posted by relap0

Russia, China and the US have all endorsed genocides directly or indirectly (the death tolls of which are outstanding) since that time and yet are still super powers

didn't you read his posts? it's not about atrocities, it's about losing the war. Russia won, China at least didn't get conquered in full by the Japanese and therefore was on the winning side.

what he really means is that all wars should be fought to end, so that noone of the losing side survives. if you're not sure, ask him what he thinks about overpopulation