Joe Stack Hailed as Hero in American "patriot" resurgence -ABC news

reply to post by The Baby Seal Club

as this cycle continues (assuming no outside intervention), Stack (and any that come after him) will be seen as only villians.

There's much truth to what you said. But we still judge events by our own standards most times... I really couldn't careless what the media thinks about him...it's mere coincidence that I, too, think he was a selfish, self righteous idiot. More often than not, I wouldn't agree with the MSM... But even those brainless mouthbreathers get it right occasionally.

We're going to disagree on this fellow...that I know. He took the cowards way out, and tried his damnedest to make others suffer along the way.

www.infowars.com...
"Only 21% Say U.S. Government Has Consent of the Governed"

The founding document of the United States, the Declaration of Independence, states that governments derive “their just powers from the consent of the governed.” Today, however, just 21% of voters nationwide believe that the federal government enjoys the consent of the governed.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 61% disagree and say the government does not have the necessary consent. Eighteen percent (18%) of voters are not sure.

thought this was a relavent poll.. remember: only a 1/3rd of americans were for independence from great britain...

[edit on 20-2-2010 by TheCoffinman]

reply to post by jam321


The reality is my friend that the IRS is a very strange organization that gets it’s authority under the color of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agency.

Under the color means it effectively sails as a ship and uses ship’s captain’s law to enforce its policies and edicts.

It’s a concept that dates back to the stamp act on tea and alcohol and tobacco by the English Crown and there is some evidence to suggest that much of what the IRS collects goes to the monarchy of England and from there is forwarded on to the papacy in Rome.

Yet as you have pointed out the most economically deprived of us are not only absolved from paying taxes because of their earning level but in fact are rewarded and subsidized through the IRS with things like Earned Income Credits and Additional Child Tax Credits to where not only do they pay no money in taxes, but the Government through the IRS pays them money never withheld or paid by them to the government to in fact enhance their quality of life through the gifting of cash at other tax payer’s expense in the form of a government stipend.

Amazingly the system is set up to penalize the same entrepreneurs that were the traditional backbone of economic growth by taxing the self employed in lower income brackets at nearly twice the rate of corporations and individuals and then redistributing that money to the working poor and indigent.

It is the self employed Joe Stacks of the world who haven’t mastered the art of corporate deferrals to shelter their income and assets from taxes that actually pay not just the lions share of the system but a truly penalizing portion of the system.

The IRS in essence rewards some at others expense who lack any real initiative and are the beneficiaries of entitlements that make them exploitable and loyal voting blocks for the politicians and basically penalizes those who do have the initiative to generate wealth and create jobs and elevate a standard of living and security that makes them not susceptible to the bribery of government, while the top tier corporate earners who purchase government access directly through campaign contributions and lobbying efforts pay a far smaller percentage if any at all.

It’s a system that works great for some, specifically the working poor until you stop and ask the probing question as to why they are the working poor? Why are wages kept so artificially low and scarce job opportunities exported overseas by corporations that are insanely profitable?

It’s a system in many ways designed to reward the rich by encouraging them to basically partner with government but all too often government becomes the junior partner that simply facilitates corporate malfeasance and greed and short sightedness.

It’s a system though that does very much penalize and frustrate the self employed entrepreneur looking to master their own destiny and create wealth.

When one does consider the very real fact that the founders wanted a weak central government to basically function as only an arbiter of disputes between states and set uniform tariffs for export and import and to deal with foreign policy and to be funded entirely by the States who were entirely funded off of sales taxes and not income taxes then you really do begin to see where the truth of the matter is that the IRS helps keep the poor and indigent from becoming a totally impoverished and violent and frustrated mob, the rich from having to pay their fair share and penalize the non-corporate self starters and people with real initiative and verve.

It’s a system that badly needs overhauled as much of the Federal Government does.

By the way I help about a thousand individuals and small businesses file their taxes each year, I am very familiar with how the IRS and the taxation system works and who it works for and who it works against.

The fact of the matter is the only thing that is going to restore economic vitality to the nation is entrepreneurship and that is the segment of society that the IRS most targets, polices, penalizes and taxes the most heavily.

Thanks.





[edit on 20/2/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

I don't believe Joseph Stack was even in the plane, He was supposed to have this anger about the IRS, who are by the way only the collection arm of the FED, because we all know that our income taxes don't even contribute to running the country but go instead to the banking cabal who are fleecing our country through the FED while they invent money for Congress to throw around, adding to the deficit that we are paying interest on which is where our income taxes go. The way to get back is to stop paying income taxes. Income taxes are just fueling the system. It is illegal by the way to tell people not to join the army, but it probably isn't illegal yet to tell people they shouldn't be paying taxes, but it might be used as an excuse to send out the tanks if enough people refused to pay their income taxes. And it will certainly get you thrown into jail if you can't convince a Jury that income taxes are unconstitutional, which they are

[edit on 20-2-2010 by m khan]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The fact of the matter is the only thing that is going to restore economic vitality to the nation is entrepreneurship and that is the segment of society that the IRS most targets, polices, penalizes and taxes the most heavily.

This existed in prehistoric times. But this kind of society was unable to defend itself against organized gangs which created first states, as a parasitic and oppressive bodies. And it will never work, except on some small scale in forgotten pockets of temporarily isolated groups.

The grip of the ideas, which are basically an open promise never to be fulfilled (and your idea of entrepreneurship is, too, no more than that) is such, thanks to our basic conditioning, that it will never be released on the social level. It will keep tightening, until the moment human beings are outdated - which will happen, maybe soon, thanks to technological advancements of our age.

Joe Stack's rant is indicative, it is actually the same rant Kafka wrote down into his Process (Trial). In the end, Joseph K is killed "like a dog".

But, real salvation of people is beyond thinking and living, for living is an unfulfilled promise, and thinking is no more than fear of dying. A vicious circle par excellence...

Resisting is the only way out. Because it is free of projections, which are the currency paid to slaves for signing the contract of slavery.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by The Baby Seal Club

 

We're going to disagree on this fellow...that I know. He took the cowards way out, and tried his damnedest to make others suffer along the way.

Maybe...maybe not. You see, I don't see him as a villain or a hero. He's not a hero in my mind because I don't think he tried every avenue in which to solve his problem peacefully. He's not a villain because I do agree with him that the Govt. is corrupt to the core and needs an overhaul.
I do find it interesting that the MSM is going to villify this guy because he took his life and the life of someone else for something he believed in, but yet when someone else does this in an everyday robbery (for ex.), the press is quick to talk about his troubled childhood, abusive father, etc.
But when someone strikes at the establishment (TPTB), the first words out of society's mouth is "terrorist".
What kind of societal double standard is that?

reply to post by The Baby Seal Club

the press is quick to talk about his troubled childhood, abusive father, etc.

He was orphan. His father was the state

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Resisting is the only way out. Because it is free of projections, which are the currency paid to slaves for signing the contract of slavery.

That's pretty good. I like that!

reply to post by DangerDeath

The grip of the ideas, which are basically an open promise never to be fulfilled (and your idea of entrepreneurship is, too, no more than that) is such, thanks to our basic conditioning, that it will never be released on the social level. It will keep tightening, until the moment human beings are outdated - which will happen, maybe soon, thanks to technological advancements of our age.

There is of course something to be said in regards to the evolutionary process as you envision it on a much deeper universal level.

Will people in essence turn away from the systems that are the only thing they ever knew to embrace an entirely different philosophy of evolution or will they first be more inclined to make that which they know more user friendly and productive.

I think a lot of that revolves around the sheer wait of the circumstances that leads them to such decisions.

Arguably a good portion of humanity is disillusioned and ripe for evolution but much of it and most of it is mired in the dogmas of its previous existence and institutions.

Can people still evolve along a slower process where they put in a full and responsible effort to make existing systems work better and be more productive and healthier? Personally I believe that is what the majority are inclined to do.

We are in fact perfectly useful biodegradable temporal computers as it is that are fairly efficient and resilient and adaptive.

Humanity may have some real use left in it, provided humans themselves can envision the possibilities with an open and flexible mind. You are correct that for the most part they aren’t but things change.

How to make the system more user friendly is to break up the monopolies that lead to horded and contrived scarcity of resources and making people perform on par per expectations for a rationed slice of them.

To make those things easier to obtain by embracing a more equitable mode of distribution that isn’t quite so performance related based on a strict set of rules and guidelines of what constitutes performance worthy of reward by those few hands that have monopolized and horded all the resources even though more often than not they came by them through the funding and efforts of the masses.

Nevertheless we are on the cusp of some form of monumental change. What it will be is in part going to be determined by how many people chose to take an active role in deciding it moving forward.

Thought provoking post my friend, one a couple levels down or up from the surface problems.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The strongest trump-card is death.
There is absolutely no valid understanding of life and death.
Even science, when contemplating life, starts from "assumption" that life is good. Yet, that is totally just an assumption and ruins the whole approach from the very beginning, because it is unfounded.

As for death, in truth, it has been calumniated. Slandered. Death is a culprit, the bearer of guilt. Even with those so called jihadists, who prefer to die - I see absolutely no understanding there, but mere conditioning to simulate "resistance" to the luring voice of mermaids... The whole war on terror is a simulation to mislead people in their attitude towards death...

This is what I think why:

In reality, political reality, knowledge has the same negative connotation as death. Perhaps it is the very same thing. In public, there is only lies, there is no truth. A knowledgeable insight into the nature of the political system is shunned, ostracized, condemned. Everything under control means exactly everything lied about.


Perhaps, the mass of humanity will make a difference, but maybe under one condition: if we chose to believe that the few who really manage to recondition themselves are capable of bring everybody else to the necessary quantum leap into advanced awareness of the whole race - through an active metamorphic field (which is the energy field, because knowledge is the energy necessary to uproot ignorance).

This alone may bring about the change. But, I'm still not sure.

On the other hand, even if most people wanted to recondition themselves, and especially when it comes to rising children, I'm afraid there are not enough qualified people who really understand what this means.

Almost all if not all emotions are conditioned, reactive behavior, protocols which we in most cases follow unconsciously, like robots. It is a huge task to debunk all of it and it is a life-time project for each individual. And society absolutely won't allow this - there is no time and energy left for people exhausted at work to even think of this possibility. I think most of us, here on ATS, are aware of this problem.

So, in my opinion, the solution does not lie within the boundaries of society. One has to give up his social-animal life in favor of individual, self-absorbed endeavor. Quest for knowledge is in the first place a personal action.

The concept of exchange has to be replaced with the concept of sharing. Sharing knowledge is the key moment, but it is not difficult, because knowledge is anyways - everywhere and free. Anyone can acquire it if he looks into the right place. And the right place is outside all protocols and schemes that exist on the present social plane, with very few exceptions, depending on the individuals in position in certain institutions.

Much more to be said about this, but generally speaking, one thing has to be rechecked: Our blind faith in "reason" as the most precious "gift" we have, because it is the reason which is a tool for projecting, and projection, obviously, does not qualify as a real thing - for it never fulfills its promise. Reason is exactly the "foreign mind" which controls us - or, the ideas.

Corporations are perhaps, at the moment, the most advanced social form (why would we assume that "the most advanced" actually means "the best"? Because we are conditioned to react to those terms?).

In corporation, individual, or personality, is absolutely denied and forbidden. It is a mechanism and it has protocols for every action. Truly, here we don't deal with the analogy any more - a matrix.

The wall of reason, of ideas, of protocols - that is the wall, or building, that Joe Stack crashed into. What his thoughts were, and there were plenty of them, is irrelevant, because his action nullified them all. He did something, and for some it will stay as landmark in time, no matter what we may think about "killing innocent people" and some such dilemmas devised to paralyze us and prevent us from taking a stand against the oppressing mind.

Taking action is crucially opposed to thinking, and thinking is basically "fear of dying". Inside thinking, there is never really an opportunity to face death.

reply to post by DangerDeath

The strongest trump card is not death. Death doen't trump everything, because people are sometimes willing to die for others. Maybe love trumps death.
Considering all the conspiracy theories, the agenda the ptb have for reducing the pop by 95% and the endless war, somebody better start standing up for truth and freedom because we have a lot of people in this world that we love.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by m khan]

Originally posted by m khan
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

The strongest trump card is not death. Death doen't trump everything, because people are sometimes willing to die for others. Maybe love trumps death.
Considering all the conspiracy theories, the agenda the ptb have for reducing the pop by 95% and the endless war, somebody better start standing up for truth and freedom because we have a lot of people in this world that we love.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by m khan]

For people who fall victims to the eternal promise of comfortable life, death most certainly is the strongest repellent, keeping them in submission.

Love, on the other hand, if you understand love as an unconditional action, is very much missing from the reality of society.

The idea of "exchange" is directly opposed to love, which is unconditional. And exchange is the very foundation of society.

If freedom means losing the living standard, and especially threatening living conditions or lives of one's family, I'm afraid, the trump-death works fine. And love stays an unfulfilled ideal.

Those who believe that reducing population will guarantee their miserable survival, are absolutely wrong. If the trump card is in the hands of technology itself, which is right now pretty much possible, they will be simply the last to be sacrificed to this Moloch.



[edit on 20-2-2010 by DangerDeath]

Originally posted by heckler
Hey Shinsengumi,

They already have a plan for the NEW Gov't. There is an outline and rules and everything. The revolutionaries have it all figured out. They have this document...

...and they call it "The Constitution".

Of course all the names have to be changed, you know... to protect the innocent.

Meet the new boss.. The same as the old boss..
But back to what I said.. I havent seen a one of the idiots spouting off advocating revolution offer up any valid options if they got lucky and beat the odds and won. In the end the u.s would end up like the banana republics in the 80s.. Innocent people getting butchered while sanctimonious hypocrits profit from bloodshed. Nothing changes for every tyrant/dictator you take out theres 10 more waiting to step in humanity never learns and the senseless slaughter continues. Been there done that when I was young and stupid then saw that nothing changes and patriotism is a load of sh*t to appease the ego of foolish old men while young men go out and die to pay for so called patriotism.. And those who do come home get spit on by an ungrateful public and shoved aside by a corrupt government so spare me the patriotic bullsh*t. Just damn glad that I left stateside years ago and got away from the fools and idiots. Violence solves nothing . Ive grown tired of it not going to bother reading anymore of the rantings of the fools and idiots who want to play revolutionary go get yourselfs and all the innocents around you killed the world wont change a bit life will go on . Mods delete my account I dont even want
to waste time returning to read the delusions of the primitives who think violence solves everything.. To the few sane people seeking peace I hope you find it.

www.nydailynews.com...

Facebook pulls plug on Tax-icide tribute to Joseph Stack, pilot who crashed plane into Austin office

Conservative talk show host Jon Alvarez of WFBM-AM 1390 in Syracuse created the group just hours after Andrew Joseph Stack carried out his crazed suicide mission Thursday to express his anger at the IRS.

Facebook removed the site within a day of its creation and e-mailed Alvarez to tell him that it bans posts that are hateful or threatening.

ok the article makes no mention of any hate in this guys tribute, but of course they took it down anyways...

"I'm surprised more people haven't done something like this," Alvarez said. "There's a lot of frustration out there. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg."

Smells like to me the Feds dont want this gettin around much, noticing just how many people are supporting this guy they are taking things down... alittle too late...

before the original website Joe Stack had posted his "manifesto" on was takin down, it recieved 20 million hits... notice the words the daily news uses... "crazed", how they mention the only person killed was a veitnam vet whom i might add is labeled a right-wing extremists by this government, and there is a poll on there that asks, "Do you harbor anger towards the federal government?" the current results: 30% yes (theres your 1/3rd for revolution), 28% says the system is flawed but basically works and 42% said im alittle upset but im not about to fly a plane into a building. i also want to add that they added "but im not about to fly a plane into a building" to mess with the poll numbers... the media are nothing but mouthpieces and manipulative tools for the ruling class... thats it.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by TheCoffinman]

Originally posted by TwoPhish

Originally posted by TheCoffinman

Joe Stack Hailed as Hero in American

abcnews.go.com

The Web was studded with praise for Stack almost immediately after his plane slammed into the Austin office complex Thursday morning. The admiring salutes appearing on sites ranging from Facebook to the pages of extremist groups reflect what experts say is an "explosive growth" in the anti-government patriot movement.

"Extremist groups are already aligning behind [Joe Stack], beginning to talk about him as a hero," said Mark Potok, director of the Southern Poverty Law Center which studies American militia and hate groups. "The growth of those groups has been astounding."

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 19-2-2010 by TheCoffinman]

Extremists? The only thing extreme about me is that I am extremely pissed off at this country and where it's heading.

This person, to me, is a hero.

He did what so many people are feeling. Total frustration. Total disappointment and total hopelessness.

Wow... I didn't realize that your view of a hero is someone who is frustrated, disappointed and hopeless!

I guess you get the role models you deserve eh?

Heroes are exactly the opposite. They are the ones who see through the fog of frustration, the pain of disappointment and are motivated by a hope that is enduring.

Originally posted by TheCoffinman
a quote from an original right-wing extremist:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." -Sam Adams

its as if hes talking directly to some of you on ATS isnt it..

Speaking as a Brit I think that is a poignant and telling post!
Well said that man!

reply to post by WatchRider


Yeah, one thing i really find fascinating, is how, there is such a negative reaction among many (often subtle but sometimes obvious) when one tries to quote the words of a founding father, only to be labeled a cook, tea-bag-head, extremist, terrorist etc.

I suppose it all depends on one's point of view.... were their words only contemporary to their time, or are they timeless and universal. I choose to believe the latter.

Because, really, we are still the same people, with the same hopes and dreams of a better way, and those who can't see that, they too are still the same today as they were back then.

Joe Blows His Stack is not a hero. He may be a mind controlled puppet sent to wake up the aspartame riddled, reality show programmed boobs who need assistance finding their place in the story, but a hero he is not.

And get off the founding fathers as having done such a wonderful thing for us because all they proved was that you couldn't solve the days problems with the same mentality that created them.

That's why the American way of "life" is no different a system than the rest of the world. We get up go to work and come home only to do it again, every day, over and over, generation after generation. Never questioning the futility, never asking why and certainly not seriously considering other options.

The true heroes through these turbulent waters will be the men, women and children that provide peaceful solutions to our current problems.

For the past 2010 years of recorded history we've done nothing but kill each other for TPTB, and they can't wait for the chips to fall so as to kill us all.

Fight, fight, fight they cry from behind the curtain. Raise up against one another till only a few remain they say.

Joe was meant to stir the pot. Will you continue to take Illuminati bait? Come on, they know you're itching for a fight. They know how many guns you're buying, how many bullets you have. They also know that they are 30 to 40 years ahead of you in the story so they have a decidedly larger advantage.

The best part of all though is that they know, fighting begets fighting, and it seems that all a "patriot" knows how to do is fight. It's not your fault, you've been programmed to react this way...

Time to evolve.

Time to see that we don't really want to fix the broken system; it never served to make our lives better. Doing certain tasks became easier sure but ask yourself if this is the best we can be?

Then realize that the only thing preventing us from being the best we can be are the thoughts we produce, and our limited imaginations.

We live in an infinite universe with infinite possibilities so there must be an infinite number of heroes out here as well.

Come up with better solutions heroes, it really is up to you. And me, and that guy over there, to come up with the new reality.

How many John Lennon's do we have on our team? Any more Martin Luther King Jr's? Those men were heroes. That's why they were taken from us.

A REAL hero sacrifices along with us or dies while saving or sparing others.

A real hero doesn't give up till the cause come to pass.

Flying your plane into a building and ending your life in an attempt to avoid consequences or to make a point for the rest of us is what started this recent downward spiral we're in lately.

Here's an MLK quote that speaks to the heart of this matter.

"The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not
revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of
futility."

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Heroes are exactly the opposite. They are the ones who see through the fog of frustration, the pain of disappointment and are motivated by a hope that is enduring.

What hope motivates your definition of a hero? Hope that they won't be audited? Hope that the corporations suddenly decide that it's wrong to have hijacked the government, and stop bribing our officials and rigging elections so that they serve the people once again? Maybe the lofty 'hope' that was used by our current, same as the last president to gain support for the same agenda?

I don't condone his actions personally. I feel a better way to change things, is for all americans to stand together and tell them we're done playing their games. We need to take a stand and stop going to work until lobbyists are driven from washington, and elections are monitored by the people and the government knows who they work for. I understand paying taxes, but we need to have a say in what our money is spent on. For example, a vast majority of taxpayers were against the bailouts, and we were ignored by those elected to represent us. That needs to stop.

But the fact is, he did something besides just talk, as misguided as his actions were.