Joe Stack Hailed as Hero in American "patriot" resurgence -ABC news

reply to post by December_Rain


The truth of the matter is it is entirely inconsequential as to whether the man is labeled a terrorist or not.

Why? Because despite the War on Terror and the TSA and Homeland Security there is only one way to prevent terrorism and it can’t be done with the use of full body scanners, or overly restrictive and intrusive laws aimed at spying on and controlling people.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but none of those things actually prevent terrorism.

Terrorism is the use of violence to instill fear for political purposes.

Terrorism is about politics at its roots and not simply conquest and violence.

How you prevent terrorism is by fairly considering those points of view and needs of the disenfranchised and frustrated who feel that the only way they can be heard, the only way their political statement can be heard is through a random act of violence that captures everyone’s attention to their plight and message.

As we have seen though these boards on threads like this some people are more inclined to consider such people’s plight more fairly than others.

While many people tend to just fixate on what the terrorist did as being wrong as an excuse or a means to not fairly consider the message it is that presumptive arrogance that dismisses the individual plight of others that entrenches the systems and the attitudes where a certain disenfranchised segment is going to turn to terrorism.

Once that happens it is a foolish notion that the government could ever prevent random acts of violence for the purpose of making a political statement short of planting a cyanide module and computer chip in each and everyone of us and monitoring our every thought and movement ready to terminate our lives at a moment’s notice for thinking the wrong thought or making the wrong movement.

Does anyone out there want to volunteer for such a system, because ultimately that’s the only system that could prevent terrorism without looking at the root causes of it and addressing those.

What the government has done disingenuously through the War on Terror to all of our detriments is to convince so many people that there should never be dialogue with terrorists, that their own perspectives, concerns, wants and needs should never be considered or taken into account.

Now as the same type of policies that were once just limited to how our gunboat diplomacy and corporate rule effected just the third world are also having a more and more pronounced and notable impact on Americans as well, Americans are beginning to in that same brand of frustration turn to violence themselves.

If such people really thought that the world our government has created is fair, and fair to them and fairly considers them the reality is no they would not be engaging in violent acts.

How could they, and why would they ever consider it to be fair when in reality we have all been painstakingly trained to filter out their individual messages to reject them out of hand without ever considering them and to simply view all individual statements or acts that go against the entrenched status quo as being bad, even though there is hardly a one of us who truly believes our system is ideal or perfect.

You don’t stop terrorism through law enforcement, and you don’t stop terrorism through war. You create terrorism through law enforcement and war by teaching the oppressed and disenfranchised under no circumstances will they be fairly considered.

You defeat terrorism through dialogue and compromise and fairly considering if what people claim is truly unjust, excessive or detrimental really is.

The truth is our government and our corporations do a lot of things that are unjust, excessive and detrimental.

Making excuses for that, and theorizing that there is a right way and a wrong way to change a system that does not consider or listen to the people it governs simply falls into the hands of what is causing terrorism to increasingly exist as a means for the disenfranchised to make violent political statements.

The only way the government could protect us from terrorism is to stop doing the things that drive people to that level of desperation.

That it refuses to do that, and that it teaches us to never do that simply means that terrorism is hear to stay and will continue to get worse, and that the government itself will respond by doing things that only frustrate and diminish the rest of us as a result.

If you really want to stop terrorism stop being and Amerikan and join the human race, and then act human for a change.


[edit on 20/2/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

I don't know if this has been covered or not befre John Stack donated 500$ to Ron Paul.


Source:herndon1.sdrdc.com...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Also very well said mate, I agree with you 100%. The article I posted before was actually a satire.



[edit on 20-2-2010 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Here's the part of Joe Stack's manifesto that reeks of self pity, rationalization and mendacity...

Couple of questions.

Show of hands...first...how many of you know you need to file income taxes every year???

Second...how many of you know that if you withdraw your 401K/IRA early you will need to pay taxes and an early withdrawl penalty????

I'll answer your questions. To the first - if i made no income, they can kiss off.

To the second, another ripoff/scam of a persons hard earned money. Personally i would never put money in anything where there is a FEE to take it out, as a matter of principle but - OK that's just ME. So ehh.. whatever.

And apparently Mr Stack is now a legend more in minds of a plenty of people then even he probably was in his own. Take a look around you. Reality check maybe?

Hero? Really?

Patriot? Really?

I think not. A selfish ego driven maniac, with persecution issues? Now that I could get around...

Oh, his life was unfair? That really is too bad, little man, welcome to the real world... Gee, my life in unfair quite often, too, do I get to drive a plane into a building, too?

So his kid gets to grow up listening to people say "oh, your daddy was the one who flew his plane into the building...what a loser..." or words to that effect. Those people would be right. Loser.

Commode licker? That's about right.



[edit on 2/20/2010 by seagull]

The same thing happened in the Clinton administration that is occurring in the Obama era. Right wing reactionaries exploding under a liberal president.
Count on it being much worse because Obama is not only a Liberal, but also a black man.

Recall under Clinton we had all kinds of militia movements cropping up, and other right wing ideologues coming to the surface, and conspiracy theories all over the place.

Much of this culminated in the Waco tragedy and the Oklahoma bombing.

Of course that what the government wants us to believe.

Expect much more ahead like this plane bombing or worse.

reply to post by seagull


But on the other hand if your father died in one of the unjust wars in Afghanistan or Iraq dropping bombs on innocent men, women and children who have never once done anything to harm the people of the United States you aren’t a loser but a hero!

Its perfectly alright and even noble to sacrifice your life for a corporate/government cause and to kill other people who have never done anything to you in the process but it isn’t alright for the individual to pick or choose any such similar battle of their own accord.

War and violence, death and wanton destruction is perfectly acceptable when it serves a corporate or government agenda and purpose.

It has a legitimacy then, but even though we are trained to accept such a system, to fund such a system it is wrong to ever utilize the same methods that the system does as a solution to a problem.

Yes in the game of life there are winners and losers but the truth is that what defines winners and losers more often than not is not the prize but the perspective of others.

There is a very real hypocrisy in the system as I have pointed out.

That might makes right, don’t do as I do, but rather do as I say mentality.

That is what makes life so unfair my friend.

When that little person born to loose decides to give their last full measure of devotion to a cause that they believe in is noble to them does not necessarily mean that notion or cause wasn’t’ a noble one.

The truth is if the world wasn’t governed by such hypocritical and unfair standards there really wouldn’t need to be any losers would there?

The fact that some people would prefer to just continue on in that unfair world with their head fairly stuck in the sand in regards to its wisdom or necessity might suggest that more people besides Joe Stack have an inherent propensity and need to loose.


[edit on 20/2/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


"War and violence, death and wanton destruction is perfectly acceptable when it serves a corporate or government agenda and purpose."

This is very true. It is also true when viewed through History's Hindsight.

Imagine if you will, a private citizen in Germany in the 1930s. He takes his personal aircraft and flies it into the nearest Gestapo HQ building because he's tired of the perceived persecution. At the time, he would be considered a "terrorist" or "wackjob". But because of how history worked out, he is now considered a hero.
Fascinating isn't it? History (and heroism) is most definitely written by the victors.

reply to post by The Baby Seal Club


Very true my friend and you have presented a wonderful analogy of how perspectives and public attitudes can be warped and are warped primarily to support and further a mass political agenda.

But the masses rarely drive the agenda but rather a handful of political and corporate elites adept at shaping public perspectives and eliciting favorable responses and support for it.

Support that often does turn out to be disastrous and not in the people’s best interest once that agenda runs its full course or becomes more apparent as to what its ultimate objective is.

Conversely its time we as Americans became honest with ourselves about just how far government and the corporations have moved away from the constitutional promise of what American life is supposed to be.

That agenda is increasingly harder and harder to reconcile with constitutional government.

Amazingly for some people history’s pivotal points should be deliberately put off. Well we suffered for all these decades off the path, why do you want to correct it now that such and such party or leader is in office, its not fair and you must just not like such and such party and leader. If you didn’t correct it earlier its wrong to want to correct it now becomes the rallying cry of those who would just rather be governed through perspective and not common sense.

Yet as the allies closed in on Berlin and the German citizens began to realize that their ultimate fate was destined to be an abysmal one they did become increasingly desperate to do away with the Nazi Government.

Sadly it was too little too late. No in hindsight no one would fault today a German citizen undertaking a suicide act against some visible and notable portion of the Nazi regime. They sure would have been poorly thought of by the German government and most of the people at the time though.

Sadly we do much better at making excuses for history than truly learning from it.

Great post my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You're leaping to an assumption that it is a "corporate" war, or whatever the current catch phrase is...

My father fought in three different wars... WWII, Korea, and the early days of Vietnam, he also "fought" during the days of the "cold war", so yeah, he was and is my hero, and always will be.

He didn't fly a plane into a building full of his neighbors attempting to kill them when "they" treated him "unfairly"... He worked more hours to keep me and my brother and sisters fed.

You wanna treat this clown as a hero? Feel free, pardon me if I don't agree. If he's a hero, then so is Tim McVie...after all he went after the FBI/Justice Dept...hero, right?

Hero/Villian. Depends on the point of view of the viewer, doesn't it?

reply to post by kenton1234

"Would you still find it acceptable if he had taken out a busload of visiting school children?"

Stuff like that is better left to the MARINES in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yea, but unlike you and others, I don't consider people, Marine or otherwise, who take out innocent civilians on purpose heroes.

Amazing how people are quick to try to justify this guys action by bringing in the military.

Just shows you can't defend him on what he did.

reply to post by seagull


Personally I don’t believe violence ever solves anything and its not about condoning what Joe Stack has done.

It’s about honestly acknowledging on a deeper core level beyond just his personal capacity to cope with the injustices of the world.

It’s about understanding that his choice was a tragic one with tragic consequences and what were the true things that led to him making that choice.

Many people feel the IRS is an unjust entity that taxes excessively and lacks flexibility.

Many people do feel that government is too large and too intrusive and tries to do so many things it does not do any of them particularly well.

Many people do fee that they have no adequate representation in government because corporate lobbyists clog the halls of congress and buy access to government through cash and campaign contributions.

Many people feel in regards to major events like 9-11 the government hasn’t been thorough or forthcoming in adhering to the constitutional standards of law and presenting the people with all the evidence and legitimate avenues to discuss all the evidence.

The list goes on and on and on.

Conversely millions of Vietnamese died in that war, hundreds of thousands more were scarred and maimed for life.

Ultimately the corporate government was there to extract tin. To prop up a corrupt regime rife with cronyism and to enrich itself through the awarding of contracts to foreign corporations to rape the nation of its natural resources in exchange for a pittance, but a princely sum paid to those corrupt officials who were selling them off piecemeal.

That some people imagine that those fighting in that war were somehow protecting our freedoms and values is just that, people imagining that somehow the corporate rape of natural resources to horde them and profit off of them some how keeps us safer.

Thousands of miles of ocean is what keeps us safe.

A well armed citizenry is what keeps us safe.

No what I am advocating is for people to understand that there is a growing root problem that is creating the Joe Stacks of the world, and as such will continue to create more.

You can whine and cry and moan and groan that some don’t have the same propensity to cope unfailing and submissively with the injustices of the world, and that some might choose not to just continue on through life as an economic slave taxed into supporting a corrupt and intrusive government rife with cronyism that fairly oppresses the people in that regard.

That though won’t change people from taking exception to it, neither will mind altering drugs aimed at making the free thinking docile, neither will intrusive and restrictive laws.

The reality is America is not just incapable of having an honest dialogue with its chosen enemies.

America is incapable of having an honest dialogue with itself.

Americans are adept at pretending their problems, the nation’s problems, societies problems are not so real or significant or important as they truly are, and are prone to make a thousand and one excuses for them simply as a means to embrace an illusion of safety and absolution from their own culpability in those problems.

To absolve them selves of it and to passionately swear up and down that if political personality A doesn’t change it then eventually political personality B or C will.

America has fundamental problems Washington is deliberately not addressing and further Washington is the cause of many of them.

My point is that until America does create a real dialogue about its problems there are going to be more Joe Stacks and believe it or not my friend, when there are enough such people who undergo enough such actions to create a fundamental change that perceptions then believe is for the better they do end up heroes.

The truth of the matter is the Joe Stacks of the world wouldn’t have to go so far if the rest of us would commit ourselves to going a little further ourselves.

To creating a meaningful dialogue about the real ills of the nation and society and what is causing them and to stop pretending if we just defame and kill all the messengers the message that they are delivering will cease being relevant.

By your own admission life is unfair.
By your own admission you don’t believe it can made to be fair nor as a result are you prepared to try in any significant way or capacity to make it more fair.

In life, in the game of life, you are either always part of the solution or part of the problem.

No offense my friend but you are part of the problem.

Is Joe Stack part of the solution? No he really isn’t but he should and others like him should be a wake up call that we need to start pulling the skeletons out of the national closet and stop making excuses for them, or there really will eventually be a lot more needless widows and orphans.

Thanks.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Hero/Villian. Depends on the point of view of the viewer, doesn't it?

Actually, yes that is a good point. Really the way this thing is going, it looks like its turning into of those god/vs. atheist or pro-choice vs. pro-life arguments, seems like this issue is going to be one of those circles of arguments going basically nowhere. More fun stuff to argue about while nothing really progresses for everyone as a whole. Oh what this Mr. Stack has started. Hero or Villian, the guy left a mark. Got people all fired up. Mission accomplished.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Hero/Villian. Depends on the point of view of the viewer, doesn't it?

That's correct. But unfortunately in today's social and political climate, not all views are given equal footing.
In today's MTV world, all militia groups and anti-government groups just got lumped in with Stack and Neo-nazis, etc. because of one ABC piece.
Do you think that people who disagree with the IRS are going to be given the time of day now by the MSM? Instead , now we will be bombarded with how wacked out people are that belong to any type of anti-establishment group.

As this cycle continues (assuming no outside intervention), Stack (and any that come after him) will be seen as only villians.

And the beat goes on...

reply to post by The Baby Seal Club


The reality is the mainstream media would never side with a citizen in a dispute with the IRS.

There job is to promote the view that only two things in life are for certain, death and taxes.

There was a time when there was a relatively free and independent press but those days are by and large long gone.

Today corporate media bombards us 24 hours a day with an endless array of editorial, hyperbole, spin and mind numbing fluff aimed at distracting us from our own significant problems and focusing us angrily and frightened on things like Iran far from our own shores.

There job is to convince us that no matter what the state of life is here, it’s much worse other places and in comparison we truly are lucky and should not complain!

The system of Government and Media is designed to accomplish and affect one thing only, a control over the masses to make them as homogenous and pliable as humanly possible to entrench and perpetuate its own rule and profit.

What people like Joe Stack in fact do is just make us focus back on our own domestic problems, where the media and government then downplay our problems, make light of our problems, and assure us in time that our problems will go away even though they never do and tend to only get worse.

They play their word games aimed at making those who question, dissent, or act on their own seem and appear to be a danger to us all.

The truth is such people are a danger to a select few, it is our government and media and corporations that in reality is a danger to us all.

Danger you see lurks always where you least expect it. Since government is in part designed to protect and serve the people that is precisely where you would least expect it but nonetheless exactly where you are going to find it!

Great posts my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Many people feel the IRS is an unjust entity that taxes excessively and lacks flexibility.

Who sets the excessive taxes? Why do people feel this way? Is it because of what they hear or is it based on personal knowledge? Or is it just simply that people don't want to pay taxes?

Realistically, only one percent gets audited.

As for the likelihood of your tax return being audited, just keep this in mind. There were 1,384,563 individual tax returns that were audited during fiscal year 2007, out of a total of 134.5 million returns filed in the previous year. That means that only one percent of all individual returns filed actually received an IRS audit.

www.jkharris.com...

Many owe no taxes.

In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

money.cnn.com...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You know what's the really nasty side to your posts?

It's that it is a never-ending cycle in which the intrusions and limits placed upon citizens continues until the normal Joe Shmoe sees no way out and then...surprise! another Joe Stack incident.

How to break the cycle?

reply to post by jam321


I am no mind reader my friend but I would suggest much of the problem can be discovered in this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f06e77c25743.jpg[/atsimg]

Only 11% of Government spending is required to run government infrastructure. Only 30% of Government spending goes to the health, education and entitlement programs that can be argued to have some benefit to the citizens.

The rest in fact the majority of your tax dollars goes to fund vast military endeavors aimed at promoting corporate rape of natural recourses and exploitation of them.

Are you really of the opinion if you can just keep telling people everything is alright, and that they are getting real value for giving up over 50% of their incomes in State, Local, Federal, Sales Taxes, Social Security, Insurances, Licensing and Fees that people are really going to imagine they are getting some value for it as their standard of life constantly decreases and their individual survival and security becomes an increasingly problematic and worrisome thing.

While at the same time the wealthiest individuals and the corporations they own can simply use their own political influence within Washington to demand that the citizens bail them out and refund their endeavors.

Joe Stack may have lost his capacity to cope and reason but his statement was a sound a reasonable one.

“The definition of insanity is to keep applying the same failed methods over and over again hoping for different results”

Ultimately my friend though I imagine you consider to be yourself reasoned and well intentioned your advocacy for doing precisely that is undeniable.

Thanks.

reply to post by The Baby Seal Club


You break the cycle by honestly acknowledging there truly is a real problem and people from the head of government to the man in the street engage in meaningful dialogue about how to make the system function more efficiently to greater benefit.

We can’t break the cycle until people decide to become honest about the scope and nature of the problems and stop their constant deflections away from them.

There are actually some people who imagine all this is about people’s dislike of one man that man being the president based on superficial reasons.

That’s how deep the denial and dishonesty goes my friend and that is what has to be overcome to break the cycle.

As long as the system is based on the idea of exchange, it will never work. Simply because exchange is never just. Especially in the system where the process of exchange is so complicated and there are so many "midwifes". Such system is the source of violence from its day 1.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


My graph is different. But alarming nonetheless.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2f00f226a6ef.jpg[/atsimg]


www.cbpp.org...

While at the same time the wealthiest individuals and the corporations they own can simply use their own political influence within Washington to demand that the citizens bail them out and refund their endeavors.

You and I both know that despite laws, the wealthiest will find a way to thrive. They will always find the loopholes. If not here, then in some foreign country. Corporations are a different story. IMO, consumers can change corporations if they are willing to boycott. Yet, people are continuing to use and seek the services of the corporations who are milking us the most.

“The definition of insanity is to keep applying the same failed methods over and over again hoping for different results”

I agree, but violence will also be a failed method. IMO, people are too dependent on government and more than that, they are scared of the unknown. Maybe that is the reason we have so much complacency. How many times have people called for action only to have very few show up to support the cause?

Are you really of the opinion if you can just keep telling people everything is alright, and that they are getting real value for giving up over 50% of their incomes in State, Local, Federal, Sales Taxes, Social Security, Insurances, Licensing and Fees that people are really going to imagine they are getting some value for it as their standard of life constantly decreases and their individual survival and security becomes an increasingly problematic and worrisome thing.

No, things are not alright. But taxes are misleading. Many do not pay 50% of their income in taxes. And if taxes are such an issue than maybe we should figure out a way to rid ourselves of the social entitlement programs that are also a burden on our society.

The entitlement cost is only going to get bigger.

Joe Stack may have lost his capacity to cope and reason but his statement was a sound a reasonable one.

Hard to understand why you find it sound and reasonable considering its only his side of the story.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your opinion and enjoy reading your posts.

Peace my friend.