Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by riley

 

I really liked your last post, riley. And I tend to agree with most of which you said. I hope more replies can follow your lead.

Excellent.

So Dark ghost... Which parts did you like? (not a serious question but cleshe female fishing for compliments joke)

Perhaps if someone has a theory we can discuss it objectively and then see if it rings true. The OP says that 54% of a thousand women said women are partially to blame for their rapes. Their opinions are just opinions. Perhaps, instead of argueing over whether or not these women are to blame, we should be measuring them against actual facts. I personally believe the poll results have either been misrepresented/sensationalised in the article or those women are wrong.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
So Dark ghost... Which parts did you like?

(not a serious question but cleshe female fishing for compliments joke)

Perhaps if someone has a theory we can discuss it objectively and then see if it rings true. The OP says that 54% of a thousand women said women are partially to blame for their rapes. Their opinions are just opinions. Perhaps, instead of argueing over whether or not these women are to blame, we should be measuring them against actual facts. I personally believe the poll results have either been misrepresented/sensationalised in the article or those women are wrong.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

I do not agree with the poll either. It appears unrealistic and, as you stated, sensationalised too. The problem with a thread like this is that people from all sides will at times misinterpret what others have said, and unfairly and unreasonably label them in the process.

As I mentioned earlier, it is a sensitive topic. Some of the posters in this thread have probably been the victim of rape and some of the posters know others that have been victims of rape too.

I personally have a female friend that was the victim of rape and I have witnessed the effects it has had on her. I have never told her or implied that she was somewhat responsible or that it was her own fault. When I think about what happened, I wish I was there to help her and prevent her from going through this. Unfortunately this happened before we became friends and I cannot change her past.

The point is I would not want any other of my friends to go through something like this and if that means telling them to be extra careful then so be it. Men and women ARE different. They are both entitled to the same rights and privileges, but to state they have the same mental functions, basic impulses and physical make-up is ignorant to say the least. Like I have stated a few times, men have a responsibility to educate their youth that woman should be treated with respect and dignity. If the education fails at this basic level, some male youth will grow up without much regard for the other gender.

As we both know, education is NOT a one-way street.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I've been avoiding participating this thread after a certain level, but I have to answer your final statements.

The "capability" to rape is not linked with the level of education or social status for that matter.

It's a sexual/behavior disorder. It affects any social class and any type of person.

Rape among higher social classes also occurs. But the issue here is:


If a women has 1001 factors that prevent her from reporting the rape to the authorities, and many time it is someone that they don't know, or someone that is a complete stranger and doesn't have any power status.... Imagine a women faced with reporting a person that is known to be from a higher social class, with all the things that comes with it (education, money, power, etc).

The idea that rape only happens in poor places, or is related to the level of education, is far wrong from reality.


(P.S.: I do agree with you in the rest of your words)



[edit on 17/2/10 by Tifozi]

We all should be aware of what our actions could lead to BECAUSE there are deviants, perverts and scum in the world- do not needlessly place yourself in danger.

For example- if a woman drinks heavily, meets a complete stranger who is a deviant scumbag and agrees to go back to his house to have sex with him and then decides to say "NO" at the last minute- the deviant should still respect that wish and not have sex, but because he is a deviant he will carry on and is to blame for his actions- however the woman should not put herself in such a position either- furthermore such situations make it extremely hard to "prove" that it was rape when it boils down to one word against another with possibly limited forensic or other evidence

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

And riley, the thread is actually about WHY 50% of women in a survey believe victims are to blame for rape. People then state logical reasons why this MIGHT be the case, and then they are given labels and having Straw Woman arguments thrown at them left, right and centre.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Have you read the survey in pdf form? I have and I wouldnt base anything from such a non scientific form of survey. It was an online survey in which the people conducting the survey had no way of knowing WHO responded.

So each time you quote this made up 50 percent number you are perpetrating horrible myths about rape, such as a woman contributes to her own rape. Sorry that is not the case, and this survey does not prove 50 percent of women think the victims are to blame.

For all we know it was a bunch of men from this thread that responded to the survey!!

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Have you read the survey in pdf form? I have and I wouldnt base anything from such a non scientific form of survey. It was an online survey in which the people conducting the survey had no way of knowing WHO responded.

So each time you quote this made up 50 percent number you are perpetrating horrible myths about rape, such as a woman contributes to her own rape. Sorry that is not the case, and this survey does not prove 50 percent of women think the victims are to blame.

For all we know it was a bunch of men from this thread that responded to the survey!!

quite the opposite in fact, these online surveys are becoming much more prevalent and they are more likely to illicit the truth from the respondent precisely because of their anonymity, whereas, when confronted with a "human" asking questions, people are more likely to tell the questioner what they think is "acceptable", rather than the actual truth.

Highly unlikely that the survey somehow only landed on the desks of men who also decided to fake their sex

www.feminist.com...

Facts about sexual violence, with sources that are more credible than an online survey.

"Fact #22: Almost two-thirds of all rapes are committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger (— 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative.) (National Crime Victimization Survey, 2005) "

"Fact #16: More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12. (Full Report of the Prevalance, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000) "

"Fact #1: 17.6 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 21.6% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 32.4% were between the ages of 12 and 17. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)"

"Fact #7: Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997).

Fact #8: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice) "

I doubt a 12 yr old rape victim's choise of shorts and tank that day contributed to her rape.

73 percent KNOW their victim.

Has anyone heard of grooming a victim? Stalking them, watching them, hunting them?

"Fact #30: A study reported in the New York Times suggests that one in five adolescent girls become the victims of physical or sexual violence, or both, in a dating relationship. (New York Times, 8/01/01) "

How can you protect yourself when he is your boyfriend?

It is sad to see that sexual predators/rapists prey on young girls. Here we have people harping about mini skirts no bigger then a belt, drinking and partying, anything to blame the victim. Young girls are still learning, and are naive about the world. And rapists take advantage of that.

Rape has nothing to do with clothes.

And when the rapist is daddy or your boyfriend, a dark alley would be safer than your own house.

There are statistics on men included in this link, and it is very informative.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Have you read the survey in pdf form? I have and I wouldnt base anything from such a non scientific form of survey. It was an online survey in which the people conducting the survey had no way of knowing WHO responded.

So each time you quote this made up 50 percent number you are perpetrating horrible myths about rape, such as a woman contributes to her own rape. Sorry that is not the case, and this survey does not prove 50 percent of women think the victims are to blame.

For all we know it was a bunch of men from this thread that responded to the survey!!

quite the opposite in fact, these online surveys are becoming much more prevalent and they are more likely to illicit the truth from the respondent precisely because of their anonymity, whereas, when confronted with a "human" asking questions, people are more likely to tell the questioner what they think is "acceptable", rather than the actual truth.

Highly unlikely that the survey somehow only landed on the desks of men who also decided to fake their sex

So did you read it like I did?

And if you had the reason given for utilizing online survey was cheapness, not accuracy of data.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
www.feminist.com...

Facts about sexual violence, with sources that are more credible than an online survey.

"Fact #22: Almost two-thirds of all rapes are committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger (— 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative.) (National Crime Victimization Survey, 2005) "

"Fact #16: More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12. (Full Report of the Prevalance, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000) "

"Fact #1: 17.6 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 21.6% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 32.4% were between the ages of 12 and 17. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)"

"Fact #7: Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997).

Fact #8: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice) "

I doubt a 12 yr old rape victim's choise of shorts and tank that day contributed to her rape.

73 percent KNOW their victim.

Has anyone heard of grooming a victim? Stalking them, watching them, hunting them?

"Fact #30: A study reported in the New York Times suggests that one in five adolescent girls become the victims of physical or sexual violence, or both, in a dating relationship. (New York Times, 8/01/01) "

How can you protect yourself when he is your boyfriend?

It is sad to see that sexual predators/rapists prey on young girls. Here we have people harping about mini skirts no bigger then a belt, drinking and partying, anything to blame the victim. Young girls are still learning, and are naive about the world. And rapists take advantage of that.

Rape has nothing to do with clothes.

And when the rapist is daddy or your boyfriend, a dark alley would be safer than your own house.

There are statistics on men included in this link, and it is very informative.

You are confusing two things


ONE- what you consider to be "FACTS"

with


TWO- a survey of opinions



This survey is about people's opinions, whether you argee or disagree, but they are not somehow non existent because you provide what you consider to be "FACTS"


I think we all know women can be as "judgemental" (and possibly moreso) about women, than men can be

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
So did you read it like I did?

And if you had the reason given for utilizing online survey was cheapness, not accuracy of data.

I did read it yes- and one of the reasons is also because anonymity enhances honesty

reply to post by hotbakedtater


I'm sorry, but what you continually fail to understand is that a poll is just that, a poll. It doesn't show up reality, it only shows up the work of the people who made it, or a point of view of a certain subject.

In this poll, whatever the method, whatever the data available, shows a certain amount of answers, right or wrong.

It's like in elections. 80% of the persons who answer may say "we hate X, I'll vote for Y", and in the end, they will vote for them, under the secrecy of the act of voting.

Having that said, this whole discussion isn't about the poll, it's more than that. People are just using the poll as an example to extrapolate their opinions.

Unfortunately, many people here, and with all due respect you are one of them, consistently called people who have a more abroad definition of cause and effect (NOT responsibility, NOT blame), rape supporters, or people who try to justify rape.

Adding to that a discussion about pure semantics, and you have some posts here that have a total lack of respect for opinions.

If people in this forum were scientists, worked in sociology, psychiatrists, then yeah... You are right about your stand in here regarding the way people talk.

But they aren't, and we aren't.

It's just people, from a forum that was born from a completely different subject, (and this word is important) sharing experiences and opinions.

You have a different opinion? It's your born right.
You have a different point of view of this subject? It's your born right and intellectual ability to do that.
You are unfortunate to be a victim of such a sad and sick act? I'm sorry, like everyone in here, and (at least from me) you have a piece in our hearts for the strength needed to overcome something like that (the same applies to any other victim in here).



BUT what it doesn't give you, is the right to call other people rape supporters, or people who are trying to make the victims guilty and the guilty victims. Nobody said that, and if you're talking about indirect speech, I can say the same thing about your accusations.

I also don't endorse your view of men, that you indirectly showed through out this thread. Men aren't monsters, men aren't sick and all guilty. Not all men are "out there to get you" and some are even victims of rape.

It is as wrong to portrait a gender as weak and with less rights, than it is to yell to the world that men are just a ticking rape bombs. Like it is in our natural way of function to wait for a window of opportunity to rape.

There are psychopaths and sick people on BOTH genders, and don't put on the same bag cultural influences from natural rights and freedoms, nor every men just because some have mental issues.

And please... Please refrain from picking on small words and semantics to throw things into peoples face. Sometimes people choose the wrong words, and sometimes people lose a bit of "human heat" when participating in a forum.

But that doesn't mean we're animals, or that we don't respect you.

Separate your personal feelings from a opinion exposure and a forum discussion.

Thank you.

reply to post by riley

Apparently a large percentage of sex workers have been sexually abused sometime in their life before becoming sex works so perhaps.

So again...you don't place any responsibility on the women for making the choice to be a pron star...do you hold women responsible for any choice they make??

Of course they do. You say men are biologically set up to fixate on sex because of testosterone yet women have no biologial need to express themselves sexually? Did you know women actually have orgasms too? Maybe you didn't.

And again...instead of staying on topic...you decide to attempt an insult instead. It is a proven scientific fact that testosterone causes sex drive in men, hence making them think about sex all the time. Which biological scientific fact is there that causes women to want to dress sexy?

Nice try at spin but that is not what I said at all.
The fact is alot of the time women dress sexy to express themselves, their own sexuality (that does not mean just wanting sex) and to compete with other women. Just as men have differing ways of achieving and expressing social status so do women (and no it's not just for the prize of male attention). Flattery is nice but women do not solely dress for the attention of men like they are desperate concumbines that only live for pleasing men:

I made it quite clear that I think women have various reasons for wanting to express their sexuality.. I included attracting men but not just attracting men.

If it is not just about the prize of male attention...then what is it? Do you dress the same when you are going over to a friends house where there will be no men as you would when you are going to a club where you know there will be men? And you freely admit that part of the reason is to attract men...and you know what...that is the only thing men are concerned about. They could care less if you are "expressing" yourself...all they know is that you are dressed to show what you have and they take that as you are dressing to show THEM what you got. You can have all the reasons in the world for how you dress...but you can't force others to respect those reasons.

You are complaining about being misquoted when you blatently lied about what I said? You have made it very clear you think what a woman wears contributes to her own rape.

So are you admitting you mis-quoted me? Because I am sensing it is really hard for you to admit when you are wrong...which is why we are having this long discussion where you keep insulting me, mis-quoting me, taking my words out of context, setting up strawmen, and misrepresenting my views.

Well.. yes you are. From magazine racks on newstands to tv ads. Men are taught that his social status is partially dependent on sexual conquests. I do not deny men are not naturally preoccupide with sex to some extent.. but our culture is dominated by messages that men should have sex as uch as possible.

Ever hear of cause and effect? Supply and demand? So...you are claiming as FACT that men are the way they are because of magazines and TV...right? So...how about those ancient Romans that are very notorious for their sexual fixations? Did you ever think that MAYBE...just maybe...that there are these magazines and TV ads because men are ALREADY fixated on sex and so they know this will get their attention??? I know you are trying hard to say that men are just stupid and have been taught to be sexual...and that it is very hard for you for some odd reason to admit that men are naturally this way without any outside forces contributing to it??? You keep bringing up burkas and islam culture and rape still being common there...right? Well be the same argument...they don't have the kind of sexual ads we see in the western world...and yet they are still fixated on sex. This whole "men are only fixated on sex because of western media" is a short sighted argument...open your blinders a little...look back more than 20 years in the past and look past the borders of your own country.

You have been implying all through our this thread that what a woman wears might prompt a man to go rape her. I do not believe men are naturally rapists. If they ARE the perhaps porn should be banned rather than expecting women to cover up any flesh that might tip them over the edge..

No...you have been saying that is what I have been implying. I have lost count how many times I have said this...so I'll put it in all caps for you this time. What I am saying is: RAPIST ARE OUT THERE AND WEARING CERTAIN CLOTHES MAY DRAW THE ATTENTION OF THAT RAPIST.

Again...this is just you mis-quoting and mis-representing my position (strawman). This is all you have done through this whole discussion. I say one thing...you say I REALLY mean something else...or that I'm IMPLYING something else...or you just completely mis-quote me.

I think that biological urge is mangified ten fold by our sex obsessed culture and some men have a problem distinguishing fantasy women from real ones. It must be frustrating when they realise real women don't fold like the ones they put under their beds.

You do know what misandry is right? It is the opposite of misogony...and it is just as ugly. You have done way more men bashing all by yourself then any men here have done women bashing. It is just as ugly...and in your case it is hypocritical.

I think clothing has much more to do with communcation and self expression than it does sex. For people to think women wear short dresses purely to get layed devalues the complexities of her as a human being and reduces her to a fickle moron who's self worth is only sustained by male attention.

Again...it really doesn't matter what the females reasons are...you can't control what other people think. Here is an idea though...if you know that wearing a short dress has a negative connotation...then when you wear it you need to be an adult and acknowledge that people will think of you in a certain way, they will make assumptions about you whether they are true or not. Some white guy might just really like how a white robe and hood looks...but he would be stupid to wear it and then be shocked if people made assumptions about him.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

reply to post by hotbakedtater

I doubt a 12 yr old rape victim's choise of shorts and tank that day contributed to her rape.

73 percent KNOW their victim.

Has anyone heard of grooming a victim? Stalking them, watching them, hunting them?

STRAWMAN

YOUR LOGIC: since clothes don't have a role in rapes of 12 year olds...clothes NEVER factor into rapes.

FALSE...do you not see the failed logic? Here is a comparison

FAILED LOGIC: MOST car accidents occurs within a mile of your home...so if you are further than a mile away from your home...you don't have to worry about a car accident.

How can you protect yourself when he is your boyfriend?

STRAWMAN

Clearly these are not the scenarios we are talking about...but doesn't stop you from bringing them up. *AHEM* STRAWMAN *AHEM*.

It is sad to see that sexual predators/rapists prey on young girls. Here we have people harping about mini skirts no bigger then a belt, drinking and partying, anything to blame the victim. Young girls are still learning, and are naive about the world. And rapists take advantage of that.

Rape has nothing to do with clothes.

So if clothes have NOTHING to do with it. Do you think it is acceptable for 12 year old girls to wear whatever clothes they want? Do you think they should be able to wear ANYTHING they want...12 year olds should be able to wear to school the exact same thing 21 year olds wear out at the clubs?

IF NOT....WHY????





P.S.: Why have you been ignoring my questions to you about your strawman arguments???

[edit on 17-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

reply to post by Tifozi


Using the logic presented to me in certain posts, I can only extropolate that men are monsters who at the flash of a thigh turn into rapists.

My personal feelings on men are not up for debate.

If you (in general) think a woman contributes to her own rape, you are a rape sympathizer. Failure to be smart about your situation is not an excuse for rape.

Failure to be smart in your situation is often a sad reason that an opportunistic pig rapes. That is called preying on stupid people, or preying on naive teens, or what have you, so to me, it does not have any bearing on culpability in rape.

I KNOW other people feel differently, and I am not trying to change your mind.

I am debating this topic and responding to questions raised, as most debates go, so please do not try to say you know what my personal feelings towards men or women are, nor speculate on whether those of us posting have been raped or not. That is not up for debate.

And if you care to delve into sexual violence against women, you will see a majority is perpetrated against young women, and by people those poor women know. (sometimes relatives).

Maybe I am the only one focusing on all victims of rape, not just the sluts who deserve it.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I am talking about rape, what are you talking about?

I thought the topic of the thread was 50 percent of women think rape is their fault.

My opinion is it is never a womans fault.

Further, I questioned the survey's validity.

When you look at the real statistics of rape, over 70 percent know their rapists.

A large percentage of victims are underage.

This thread was based on a survey, and unless the survey included information about all sectors of rape, it isnt very useful in preventing rape.

The main goal of the study was to see what people thought of rape, so the center could tailor their services to overcome the obstacles faced by rape victims, many who do not want to come forward.

In my opinion, rape is never the womans fault, and clothes do not contribute to rape. Rape is rape.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Using the logic presented to me in certain posts, I can only extropolate that men are monsters who at the flash of a thigh turn into rapists.

You don't have the right to insult anyone. Period.

My personal feelings on men are not up for debate.

Exactly. Keep them for yourself.

If you (in general) think a woman contributes to her own rape, you are a rape sympathizer. Failure to be smart about your situation is not an excuse for rape.

Stop being rude. You're insulting people with that statement, and I've been with my mouth closed through out the several times you abused of your point of view.

Just because people understand cause and effect doesn't mean that we support the effect.

That is called preying on stupid people, or preying on naive teens, or what have you, so to me, it does not have any bearing on culpability in rape.

So, if you do understand that producing a window of opportunity has NOTHING to do with culpability.... WHY do you systematically accuse people of doing that?

I KNOW other people feel differently, and I am not trying to change your mind.

If you know, you should respect it.

And if you are not trying to change it, then refrain from judging it like you have been doing.

I am debating this topic and responding to questions raised, as most debates go, so please do not try to say you know what my personal feelings towards men or women are, nor speculate on whether those of us posting have been raped or not. That is not up for debate.

If don't want a certain topic to be debated, don't insert it on the debate.

If you don't want to be judge, or commented on personal feelings or points of view, don't show them.

You HAVE been showing it in this thread, and you HAVE been giving a feedback relating to your feelings. I'm not making stuff up.

And if you care to delve into sexual violence against women, you will see a majority is perpetrated against young women, and by people those poor women know.

That is part of the discussion, NOT all the discussion. Don't twist and insert points like you want to, act accordingly to the discussion.

Just because ONE topic is being discussed, doesn't mean ALL others are wrong/insignificant.

Maybe I am the only one focusing on all victims of rape, not just the sluts who deserve it.

Excuse me, but how the f*** do you dare to say something like that in the thread where you JUDGE other men and women for their opinions, that were MUCH MORE refrained than that, and nobody said something like that?

This simple quote rests my whole point.

I'm not going to continue this member-to-member discussion in respect to the forum rules.

You should be ashamed of saying something like that, and running in here with a feminists flag on your hands.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


You still did not answer any of my questions directed to you. And you have not even attempted to defend your strawmen arguments.

and clothes do not contribute to rape

And you are naive to think so...nothing we can do to help you with that.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Using the logic presented to me in certain posts, I can only extropolate that men are monsters who at the flash of a thigh turn into rapists.

My personal feelings on men are not up for debate.

you do appear to have certain issues regarding males, quite sexist in many ways- I am husband and father, and I am not a monster who rapes- I also know many more judgemental women *in terms of the discussion at hand* than men


You need to stop putting people in next little boxes

reply to post by Tifozi


It is called sarcasm. Dry variety. By parroting the views I see in this thread with my comment, I was using sarcasm to highlight the ridiculousness of the statement itself.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Using the logic presented to me in certain posts, I can only extropolate that men are monsters who at the flash of a thigh turn into rapists.

My personal feelings on men are not up for debate.

you do appear to have certain issues regarding males, quite sexist in many ways- I am husband and father, and I am not a monster who rapes- I also know many more judgemental women *in terms of the discussion at hand* than men


You need to stop putting people in next little boxes

Again, it is a debate technique. I am using the logic put forth by certain posters (of which you are not, according to you) and mirroring it back as sarcasm, to highlight my disagreement with it.

If I follow the logic in some posts, a woman who dresses like a so called slut should bear responsibility for her rape. That is assigning blame to the victim, and I disagree with it.

There are no boxes.

And I have the right to stand firm in my opinion, just like everyone else.

How is this sexist?

I have NOT put forth a personal opinion on men.

I HAVE put forth my view on rape.

Huge difference.