do Birthers suffer from advanced delusionary schizophrenia with involuntary narcissistic rage?

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I think this thread was started purely to troll people.

I mean look at the title, it is being super offensive to people who think a certain way.

Can I post a thread called " Do Ufologists suffer from delusionary schizophrenia with involuntary narcissistic rage" ??? Insert any group you disagree with...

It would be considered ridicule which is not allowed at ATS.

So I say lock this thread and end the trolling - personal attacks now.

So now rather than debating points of a argument, we are debating the mental health of those we disagree with?

[edit on 3-2-2010 by muzzleflash]

I agree completely! If anyone were to go into any of the current threads and simply post that "you all have mental disease and are racists" the post would be immediately removed and replaced with a "Manors and Decorum" warning, yet this OP is allowed to go on with a thread topic that isn't even really a topic... it's just a insult of people of an opposing viewpoint, pure and simple.

This conspiracy theory is just as valid as any on ATS and I'm not going to go into the reasons why, as you can read them over and over again all over previous threads.

I just don't understand why the moderators have even allowed this "topic" to be posted!

How long would a thread be around if it said, "Anyone who believes that the government is hiding UFOs is a retard and eats their own feces! Let’s discuss...." I mean, this thread is an vile insult and nothing more. It adds nothing to the debate at hand and is, in my opinion, totally outside of the Manors and Decorum TOS.

I think the fact that it goes on shows that the moderators have taken a side on this issue. (Did I just throw that gauntlet down?!) I would actually like to see one of them justify why this is a valid thread, and if they do I plan on posting an equally nasty thread about every theory I disagree with (i.e. moon landing hoax), using their rational as justification.

ATS is sliding down the toilet by allowing an obvious troll to elevate a post as insulting as this, to the front page of a conspiracy theory site. What’s next, a post such as: “Are people who visit conspiracy theorist blog websites deranged psychopaths or just tin foil hat wearing fools?” How do we know this guy isn’t one of Obama’s brown shirts sent out to discredit and demonize people on ATS?

For the love of all that is great about this site, please remove this slanderous thread!!!

[edit typo]



[edit on 3-2-2010 by JonInMichigan]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by Ridhya

 

Thank you for your insight. As a person who lives among narcissists I found the OP's diagnosis to be a little off.

It's not fun to live with narcissistic people and what's worse it seems young adults these days are prone to it.

It should also be noted Schizophrenia is not something that can be diagnosed over the internet. It is not something to insult another person with. It is a very serious, life debilitating mental illness and it's not ok to use it to insult people.

Another would-be medical professional?

At least one with a more open mind ...

Mopery (mopery being the old English misdemeanor of exposing oneself in front of a blind man on a public highway) is a crime too!

Unfortunately, I don't see anyone doing that either!

reply to post by dereks


Google it Ace! You won't find O's though.

reply to post by SonicInfinity

The OP obviously didn't make this thread for any serious debate

amazing you can make that claim after you enter the thread and try to derail it.

Lots of us have made it a serious debate. If you don't want to participate, then see yourself out the door.

I agree completely! If anyone were to go into any of the current threads and simply post that "you all have mental disease and are racists" the post would be immediately removed and replaced with a "Manors and Decorum" warning, yet this OP is allowed to go on with a thread topic that isn't even really a topic... it's just a insult of people of an opposing viewpoint, pure and simple.

Well, aren't you just the victim? I'm not calling you names. I'm suggesting that i believe it takes a certain form of mental instability to believe something - so radical - and with such vehement passion - as the birthers obviously portray.

The birthers have started their own small version of a religion.

You have to have all of this to be a birther:

1.) Primal Rage
2.) Absolute refusal of any tangible facts that literally prove you wrong
3.) Faith that you are correct, even though you have zero evidence to believe so

Sounds like a religion to me.

Except that "believing in God" doesn't require you to march the streets calling a black guy a "monkey" or saying he practices "black magic" or saying because he was elected, we'll have to change the name of the "White house"


Being a birther - however - has proven (time and time again) that you do.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Snarf]

S&F..

this already has more S&Fs than a lot that ends up featured here on ATS...

interesting

It is ironic that people on a Conspiracy Theory & Alternative topics Forum would use the same methods employed by those who wish to silence the discussion of Conspiracy Theories. Methods such as ridiculing, questioning the sanity of others and labelling them with ideological-inspired terms just because you strongly disagree with their views are counter-productive to denying ignorance.

All I know is this...

It looks like Obama's infiltration of alternative message boards has finally actually happened.

To the OP:
"Delusional" is really the only disorder you can make a valid broad based argument for. It is entirely possible that each and every "birther" has been duped into believing a false premise.

"Schizophrenia" and "narcissistic rage" are far too specific for them to realistically apply to an entire swath of people, every single one.

Ironically, the OP might want to consider his own neurosis.
This very thread may be argued as his acting out on narcissistic rage; slandering an entire group of people to make his point of view appear superior.

Just saying...

Originally posted by centurion1211


Another would-be medical professional?

At least one with a more open mind ...

I never made the claim. Keep your vitriol to yourself.

I'm not sure why you are so hostile considering the poster in question never said anything to you.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by antonia]

reply to post by EnactingMyRight

You base this truth on what evidence? Last I checked there was more questions then answers about his place of birth. So much so that there is a judicial hearing scheduled.

Why do there need to be more answers than questions? That's actually not really possible.

Besides - why do you need more than one answer?

Obama was born in Hawaii. There's plenty of proof.

If you refuse to acknowledge the proof, well, then you have my sympathies.

But you have zero proof, only assumptions based on illogical refusal of reality (delusion) to prove your point.

My side (not Pro Obama, just Pro non-stupidity) has logically produced plenty of records and officials to confirm that he is, indeed, a citizen.

Why won't he play your games and answer every question your mad-lib machine of ignorance can produce?

Well, i wont' answer for him - but if *I* were Barack Obama, my answer would be "Because i don't like you"




From Guyverunit I

slandering an entire group of people to make his point of view appear superior.

I'm not slandering anyone. Exploring the idea, seriously, that someone might be suffering from a mental illness as a means to describe their completely asinine behavior is not a slander.

It would be slander if i made a post and said "Birthers are *Snip*

but i didn't.

I've given my reasons to support why i believe the OP is factually sound. The birthers have given me all the evidence i need.

Just google the term and you'll get more than you could ever have hoped for.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Snarf]

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 2/3/2010 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by Snarf
reply to post by EnactingMyRight

 

You base this truth on what evidence? Last I checked there was more questions then answers about his place of birth. So much so that there is a judicial hearing scheduled.

Why do there need to be more answers than questions? That's actually not really possible.

Besides - why do you need more than one answer?

Obama was born in Hawaii. There's plenty of proof.

If you refuse to acknowledge the proof, well, then you have my sympathies.

But you have zero proof, only assumptions based on illogical refusal of reality (delusion) to prove your point.

My side (not Pro Obama, just Pro non-stupidity) has logically produced plenty of records and officials to confirm that he is, indeed, a citizen.

Why won't he play your games and answer every question your mad-lib machine of ignorance can produce?

Well, i wont' answer for him - but if *I* were Barack Obama, my answer would be "Because i don't like you"




From Guyverunit I

slandering an entire group of people to make his point of view appear superior.

I'm not slandering anyone. Exploring the idea, seriously, that someone might be suffering from a mental illness as a means to describe their completely asinine behavior is not a slander.

It would be slander if i made a post and said "Birthers are # # #s #ing #s"

but i didn't.

I've given my reasons to support why i believe the OP is factually sound. The birthers have given me all the evidence i need.

Just google the term and you'll get more than you could ever have hoped for.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Snarf]

if youve all provided so much proof, then put it out right here right now

should be easy

as the only proof is a single document

where is it? unaltered on an official reputable site?


im so tired of hearing about proof when ive been asking this question over and over and havent seen one piece of proof that cant be legitimately disputed in a court of law

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Dramey]

Have this thread printed and framed - as a reminder of what real disinfo is. You marginalise, categorise and discredit swathes of people with one all encompassing and very malicious label that nobody would be proud to wear.

For example, "All truthers are attention seeking, OCD suffering delusionals" - it's not true, it's not even a real opinion, its pure conjecture and a direct insult to boot. This is what I expect from the MSM. Not from an ATS thread. Make it undesirable to be categorised in a certain way and slowly people will stop talking about it for fear of ridicule... that is your aim, isn't it? Otherwise there really is no reason for the thread other than to stir the pot in hopes of an arguement - which is fairly vain and narcissistic in itself.

Snarf, I find it quite disturbing that you were not only able to lump all the 'birthers' as all having the same disorder, label and pigeon hole as a form of 'cult' the people who have disagreed with the OS of Obama's birth records, but that you are outright accusing them of being delusional, and/or showing traits such as "narcissistic rage" when in all fairness there are many documents you yourself would like revealed by the government, which more than likely seem far more delusional than somebody faking a birth certificate.

Before I say this, I wish to clarify that I have nothing but respect for the opinions - from either side - being expressed herein, and that I myself am also not an Obama supporter (I didn't vote for him, I oppose most of his policies thus far, and I disagree with him about a great many issues.) I also do not subscribe to the so-called Birther conspiracy theory. So please take this merely as one person's expression of emotion, and not as an attack or criticism, as I promise you that isn't how I intend it.

I just personally find it sad that ATS has come to a place where rather than respectfully discussing our differences of opinion, we can post threads which paint an entire group of adherents to one theory or another (for any reason, whether the evidence suggests to its creator that they might be correct or not) as mentally ill, wholesale. Might Birthers be mentally ill? Maybe. So might many ardent proponents of any number of other theories with which I might disagree (or in some cases, agree.)

But to create a thread purely to label a group mentally ill is deeply saddening and troubling to me. Again, I have nothing but respect for that opinion. I won't say it doesn't sadden and trouble me, though, despite not being a proponent of the Birther theory myself either.

Anyway, that's all I want to say.

Starting off by saying you hate birthers is not exactly very compelling. If there's actual hatred involved - it is probably worth examining. Simple point is that everyone has different standards for "being convinced" of something.

Some people are content to be told what to believe and become convinced of it. For others, all of the evidence in the world is insufficient. Can't be so concerned over what others believe or think that you have to hate them for it.

It seems that the simple side of the whole matter is that the government and politicians have lost most of our trust and seem to be hell bent on losing the rest of it, too. The only thing keeping the US Government afloat is its ability to keep everyone polarized.

There is no center - for the U.S. to continue, it better start finding one. That's what the supermajority in Congress was supposed to do - if 2/3rds of a group can't agree on something - there's probably a reason why. Marginalizing the minority just because they don't share the same belief or opinion is not very constructive. That's what is being done though - reduce the opposition with name-calling... ha... one would think we're kindergartners.

But then - can't really blame people who are getting slapped around from slapping back, now - can ya? Would be more productive if we stopped slapping each other and started slapping the unholy living hell out of the government - and the bureaucratic establishment behind it. Our real issues are more with the unelected officials and their allegiances than it is with those we elect.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
It is ironic that people on a Conspiracy Theory & Alternative topics Forum would use the same methods employed by those who wish to silence the discussion of Conspiracy Theories. Methods such as ridiculing, questioning the sanity of others and labelling them with ideological-inspired terms just because you strongly disagree with their views are counter-productive to denying ignorance.

Best post in the thread imo. Sites like these attract just as many if not more gov't employed debunkers than they do people who are interested in getting to the truth of things(conspiracy theorists i guess).

This topic is irrelevant these days and is very outdated because i never even hear about birthers anymore and this is the first the concept has entered my mind in a very long time and i can thank this thread for that.

Whether Obama is a citizen or not doesn't mean anything because there is no way he will be removed even if it is proven and it can't be proven because all the checks and balances are corrupt anyway.

Obama was chosen by the elite to represent them and to serve as the"pitch man" for their US agenda this is what every president is they are in control of nothing so dethroning one will not affect change because we will probably get somebody even worse or at the very least the same.

So go on TS and argue this mundane topic that is very old and used up and not even the mainstream pundits are talking about it anymore. Proceed.

To be honest, I’m not even all that passionate about the “birther” issue, but I feel it is a valid debate and very interesting to follow. As far as I can tell, the full actual birth certificate with the doctor's name and hospital of birth listed has never been released to the public. Does the information on that certificate offer more or the same information as the certificate of live birth? I don’t know. But we are here to ask questions, not to be told we have a mental illness for merely asking the questions that would clear up the debate. It's very simple and not that "out there".

For some, the birther movement may take on religious fervency. For me, I just want to see the dang document already and I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

While Obama is at it, why doesn’t he show the evidence of whether or not he went to college as a foreign student. It goes to his credibility. I’m not out to prove he is not eligible to be president, nor do I care about his race as it plays no part in this debate. I’m here to observe, question, and ask RATIONAL questions about why so much information is being hidden from our purview. It's no different then also being interested in seeing what the Fed Reserve is hiding, as are many other people. Hiding basic information from the public is a simple straightforward argument against the establishment.

Questioning popular perceptions of the things around us is precisely the reason why we’re here at ATS and most certainly does not mean we have a mental illness. This thread is nothing more than a cleverly worded insult framed as a debate. It’s like walking up to someone and asking them, “Have you beat you wife lately?” It's just an insult and can't even be defended even though it has no basis in fact, it's simply an insulting opinion form as a question to avoid TOS contraints.

What would be the opposing viewpoint for debate on this thread? “I’m not insane! I’m not insane!” To which the response would be “Insane people always claim they are not insane!” I mean really, give me a break! This is not a topic. Yes, there are plenty of marginally sane (or worse) people on ATS. Some people can act like fanatics and religious zealots about their beliefs in certain theories such as this one. However others, like myself, would like to see those documents produced and do NOT feel that the litmus test of clarifying the details Obama’s life prior to politics has been sufficiently vetted.

You have intentionally lumped those of us who have a questioning and curious mind in with unstable and emotionally ill people. That is an unfair characterization and demonstrates your lack of maturity in carrying on a actual debate by following the popular tactic of attacking your opposition by insulting their sanity - a ploy spelled out by Saul Alinsky.

Even for those of you who disagree that there is any issue with Obama’s BC, can’t you see that this type of tactic can be applied to ATS as a whole and that by supporting this type of attack you may find yourself under attack someday for the theories you support? By supporting this OP you are no better than the mainstream media and their rouge tactics to discredit and besmirch credible intelligent questioning individuals.

Think before you attack. Next time it could be you being called crazy for what you believe.

reply to post by Dramey

as the only proof is a single document

Really?

It seems i need to seek the assistance of someone with many more resources than myself to help steer you in the right direction, if you honestly believe only one document exists.....please watch this video in its entirety. Yes, there is humor involved, but the humor stems from the facts that glare in the face of adversity. You can also fact check the things said in the video, and you'll see that they are true.



From USXpat

Starting off by saying you hate birthers is not exactly very compelling.

I said i have a deep loathing. There's a difference. I also never said i was perfect for having a deep loathing for people i truly believe to be mentally unstable. Perhaps that means that I, too, am mentally unstable? For another thread perhaps.

From Beefcake

So go on ATS and argue this mundane topic that is very old and used up and not even the mainstream pundits are talking about it anymore. Proceed.

Thank you for your opinion, but if it is such an uninteresting, mundane topic, then why pay it a visit and post?



From Acewombat04

I just personally find it sad that ATS has come to a place where rather than respectfully discussing our differences of opinion, we can post threads which paint an entire group of adherents to one theory or another

Well, i do give you my thanks for your respect, but i think you're looking into this too deeply. I am trying to explore why i believe someone could so savagely adhere to such a radical ideal. To me, it wouldn't be radical or insane to believe in, if there wasn't so much evidence to prove otherwise.

The strawman retort of "well, its the government, they doctored his papers" is just a cheap cop-out used to say "i can never be wrong" - and anyone unwilling to admit they might be wrong has a problem, in my opinion.

By using that logic, we could go into another "he's a communist" era - accusing anyone and everyone of not being here legally simply because they cannot produce government records.

I don' have my birth certificate. Or my social security card. I could get them if the law made me, because they exist, but i don't have them on me if some whack-job on the street demanded to see them.

And even if i did, i'd just keep walking, paying no attention to his immature rantings and strawman arguments.

Apparently - Obama feels the same way.



From JonInMichigan

Think before you attack. Next time it could be you being called crazy for what you believe.

I'll tell you what - if i ever start to believe something that can be, 100% without question - proven wrong, then you can call me "crazy". Hell, i'll admit it myself.

If the birther movement had roots to rest in, i'd say "well, who knows, it could be"

But they don't. There is too much evidence to prove them 100% wrong. But they continue on.

And in my opinion - there's only one explanation as to why - and that explanation can be found in the OP



From Centuruain

Impersonating a doctor can also be considered a crime.

I never claimed to be a doctor - those were your words.

I can look at this picture and tell you that that guy broke a bone in his leg....and i don't need to be a doctor

just like i can look at this:



and tell you that this woman has a mental issue.

Its not PHD material. Its just common sense.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Snarf]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Snarf:

Please post your medical degree and other credentials that allow you to make such a psychiatric diagnosis.

Without any of those to back you up, it is just as possible that it is you that is suffering from some sort of delusions.

Impersonating a doctor can also be considered a crime.

Paranoia is the most political of mental illnesses. You need to have enemies.

- Jerrold Post, political psychologist

But "there is absolutely no empirical evidence that people who believe in conspiracy theories are mentally ill," Barkun says, "though, obviously, some people who believe in conspiracy theories are mentally ill."

"If one were to say, hypothetically, that they had some medical problem, that would get us off the hook very easily," Barkun says.

However, political psychologist Post does not discount the role that paranoia plays in the world of conspiracy theories.

"The quality of paranoia is not strained," he says, paraphrasing Shakespeare's Portia. "It rains from the gentle heavens."

"Paranoia is the most political of mental illnesses," Post says. "You need to have enemies."

There is no single explanation as to why psychologically normal people attach themselves to disproved conspiracies. Some may find comfort in contemplating a cabal: It provides a sense that they know the truth about how the world is organized — and others don't, experts say.

The birthers may also be driven by Obama's mixed race, his international upbringing, and the economic uncertainty that has settled over the nation.

"The story that these folks tell is based on the idea that Obama is an illegitimate president," says Mark Fenster, author of Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in the American Culture.

"Any evidence of legitimacy would spoil the narrative, and that would end the pleasure of spinning out the narrative," says Fenster, an associate dean at the University of Florida's Levin College of Law.

www.npr.org...

reply to post by Snarf


i havent checked out the video yet (but i will)

however, what does a video have to do with a copy of his birth certificate

how many other pieces of information does anyone need

personally i dont need more then one, all i need is a single piece of paper, a birth certificate, supplied by a legitimate source, that is unaltered in any way

the only one i have seen has a blacked out number making it invalid according to the same documents claims

reply to post by Dramey


think of it this way:

You have newspapers confirming he was born (newspapers from 1961 that is)

You have Hawaii state officials confirming that his birth certificate is on records (they cannot release his BC, they don't have that authority)

Only Obama can. So, why play your games? Why should Obama care enough to play your games?

Personally, i think it's a better strategy to let people start coming up with wild insane theories and supporting them like a religion, to make themselves, and those who agree with them, appear all the more insane and not worthwhile.

You have evidence to prove he was born here. Why isn't the concrete evidence you have good enough?

[edit on 3-2-2010 by Snarf]