Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by dzonatas

If a person that walk and talks and reacts to the environment is proven to actually not be alive, does that make it alright to eat that person? It's similar logic to you what just said, different perspective.

I'm not sure how to answer that. The thought of eating another human for any reason is repulsive to me, "alive" or not.

Do you think the only reason why vegetarians eat plants is because they think plants aren't alive or aware?

No, not the only reason, but doesn't a significant part of not eating meat have to do with where it came from and how it was obtained? The killing of an aware animal, something that was alive and breathing? That seems to be at the root of things, though certainly not the only reason. Do you think vegetarians would eat meat if it came from plants and the animal element was removed?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

You see chimps can recognise themselves in a mirror and try to wipe the paint off, this is self realisation and it is why i would not eat a chimp.

because they don't like messy faces?

:-) that's the ONLY reason?

just poking fun Imaginary. However, when you say this:

Accept the fact that if you are alive then you are causing the death of some animal out there...Hate to be rude about it but that is the final truth of the matter...

I have to agree with you - it's a messy topic - isn't it?

I've brought this up before - but - what the hey. I am a vegetarian - that loves animals - and has pets. My pets eat meat. They have to eat meat - tofu is just not going to cut it. So, morally/ethically - puts me in a very uncomfortable place if my position is really about stopping animal cruelty

the same sources of food I'm giving up for myself on moral grounds are going directly into the making of the food I feed my pets. So - it's a compromise. All the finger pointing and accusations - it really is a messy argument all the way around.

I hate the idea of animal cruelty - period. If we really get down to it however - I think hunting is far less cruel than the treatment our livestock receives - absolutely

I don't really know the answer to this question - but how much animal labor is involved in the growing of the produce we import and then eat - or in the making of any of the products or materials that we end up purchasing?

how many of us do wear leather shoes? I do - but I won't buy cosmetics that are tested on animals - there's plenty of rationalization to go around. No point in my judging anybody really. I think it has to come down to personal choices - changing attitudes - and time

so, I think you are correct Imaginary - we don't get life without death, and we're all part of that cycle one way or another - even us vegetarians

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
I think the point is that it's possible for someone to love some animals and still eat meat just like the animals in your picture 'love' each other. Do they 'love' the animals that they are fed though?

Hey once again i agree, i get deeply annoyed with people that eat cows, pigs, chickens and yet have a go at me for shooting and eating fluffy bunny rabbits. My personal view is that if an animal shows any sign of self awareness, recognition of it's own conciousness, being self aware then i ahve no right, at all to kill it.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
I just don't see how someone can claim to love something and still be able to kill it. For me 'Love' is a concept wholly removed from inflicting violence upon something.

I kill them because without doing so you wouldn't have food to eat, well i don't do it for you personally but i recognise that without control of pest species then entire farm fields would be stripped bare. Do you recognise that? Can you forgive me for killing thousands of animals over the years so that you have plenty of veg on your plate?

Oh actually i should add that i wouldn't shoot an endangered species because if it is endangered then firstly it is unliekly to be causing a farmer a problem and secondly i have no right to wipe out a species. I help manage numbers during the summer mainly not wipe out entire herds, flocks or warrens.

As an example i was once asked to shoot sparrows by a farmer, i refused telling him that firstly it was illegal and secondly that sparrows were declining in numbers and i even have a sparrow nesting box at home lol. He wouldn't let me shoot on his land after that *shrugs*.

IMO, I'm a vegan because I don't want to participate in the torture of animals.
Hunting in my book is A OK if you use all the parts. It's just the circle of life..

However when you hang animals upside down and drain their blood.. or chain them up to get milk, I find that incredibly wrong.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

because they don't like messy faces?

:-) that's the ONLY reason?

just poking fun Imaginary. However, when you say this:

i know you were poking fun but yeah that's my basic standing, if something can recognise itself then it must have some kind of self awareness, a glimmer of conciousness and so i have no right to kill such an animal.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I have to agree with you - it's a messy topic - isn't it?

You know that's all i'd like, for people to recognise that, it isn't black and white it is very very grey. My simple stance is please, eat what you like but do not keep telling me i am immoral (note i'm not saying you said that). Let me go along, reading the research as i go and upon finding moderate meat intake is best for my body leave me to it. If one day i discover that meat is no longer doing me any good and i feel more unwell eating it then i will instantly switch to a vegetarian diet, or even a vegan diet if i feel healthier on it.

But also recognise that if you are alive then you are killing animals, either directly or indirectly. The truly moral person would take their own life.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Bones_
IMO, I'm a vegan because I don't want to participate in the torture of animals.
Hunting in my book is A OK if you use all the parts. It's just the circle of life..

However when you hang animals upside down and drain their blood.. or chain them up to get milk, I find that incredibly wrong.

You know there is a great thing going on in the UK. there is a dairy farm that lets the cows milk themselves. they walk into this stall, the machine attaches the nozzles and sucks the milk out and gives the animal a measured amount of food. The cows actually produce more milk doing this and it is entirely volentary, they are not forced into the stalls. It seems like such a better arrangment for both the farmers and the cows.

As for meat, well blood has to be drained from it but i'm assuming you mean when animals are left alive and drained. Guess what, the animals are unconcious. I'm sure PETA have some horrible videos, taken from badly run and quite illegal farms but they are the exception not the rule.

I have seen slaughter houses. Cows are the most "interesting" if that is the correct word. They saunter in along the line, quite calmly if it is done correctly and a bolt is shot into their head. It's instant death, like a human being shot in the face with a shotgun, point blank. The cows are then hung and drained.

You want to see real cruelty? Check out the Jewish slaughter laws. They tip the cows upside down whilst they are still concious, not even electrocuted and then cut their arteries, now that is cruel and as a meat eater it appauls me.

You sound like a very moral person to me and I truly believe your position to be a defensible one. My arguments thus far have been expressing why I personally am vegetarian. I believe my logic is sound and the fact that you eat meat but also deliberate about issues of animal suffering doesn't negate my argument against the meat industry as a whole. If all meat eaters were like you I would not have a problem with it.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

So wait wait i'm confused, either it's ok to eat animals or it is not, don't go walking in here and justify it by saying they lived a natural life.

Well for me it's not that black & white and I don't think you believe that either. You say you wouldn't kill a chimp, so you too believe there are instances where it is wrong to eat an animal. That's not the absolutist position that is stated in the above quote. If you read my first post on page 5 about moral equivalence you will see what my my position is. I think your position is actually the same in that you believe different animals have different moral worth. Where we differ is how we answer the question 'At what point does a human's needs become more important than an animal's right to life?' We just draw the line at different places.

reply to post by MarrsAttax


I think i consider the position that forgetting taste for a moment, meat can and does indeed provide a real biological function in many people. Now if you feel fine without it then that is ok but i feel rather weak and tired without it, well more weak and tired than usual lol.

That is the problem, many people will be like me in their needs and factory farming, sadly must be a part of that. However we could surely make it a little more humane. Consider for a moment beef, now i have ben to plenty of farms, including beefs ones in the UK and i can assure you that nearly all of them are humane. The ones that aren't are illegal.

The same goes for pigs really, those videos of them stuck in small stalls are not the common way pigs are raised.

Chickens are a whole other story and something everyone should be ashamed of. The majority of chickens are treated hoirribly. Pumped full of hormones and drugs. Fed food which doesn't meet all of their needs it just plumps up their flesh, like giving a human chocolate. Farmed in massive barns with hardly any room, getting so heavy that their legs can't hold them and they sit on the floor and develop burn marks from sitting in their own, nitrate filled excrement. That is no way to treat a life form.

Oh and don't get me started on battery hens for eggs. Buy free range guys, proper free range, if you can visit a local farm. the eggs might have a little muck on them but you can watch the chickens running around and know they're happy.

So in some instances we agree.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

meat tastes good.

plants taste good.

we are omnivores. deal with it.

if you have morals against eating animals, fine then that's your prerogative. I won't hate you for eating tofu burgers.

just don't hate on me for doing what I'm made to do.

as for all the slaughter houses, i believe that they are cruel and inhumane.

people are cruel, and can make any natural process seem gross and distorted (ie sex, beauty, living out your dream... )

if anyone was to wake up tomorrow and the world was upside down, I'd be willing to bet you would eat a deer that was killed for your survival. i guess you could look around for some dandelions though. yummy.... dandelions...

once you start changing who you are, where does it stop?

[edit on 12/30/2009 by mahtoosacks]

reply to post by Absum!


According to the Bible God told man to sacrifice and to eat animals. On the other hand when climate change makes it hard to grow food, the vegetarians will be quite tasty.

Originally posted by dzonatas

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
Being a vegetarian is a stupid choice.

Based on your idea of vegetarianism, so far, then it seems like the real point you made is that if you don't kill animals, then you are stupid.

Can you provide any source for such conjecture?

Also, can you provide any sources of when meat evolved and what existed before meat evolved? Not just evolution THEORY (or creationism THEORY) but real facts, especially the ones that show it didn't come from plants.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by dzonatas]

I nevre said "if you dont kill animals then you're stupid." I'm not sure if your attention span lasted long enough for you to read my post in its entirety. I clearly illustrated my love for animals, and that I personally have never killed an animal.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by when meat evolved... please correct me if i'm wrong, but by that I can only assume you meant meat consumption by humans and what did we eat before meat. To answer that, read your basic physical anthropology book off of amazon. Human ancestors ate things like nuts and tubers. Meat, as in hunting and gathering, came before agriculture, so the best way to show is to say over 13,000 years ago. You must also read a introduction to understanding scientific terms book, in which you'll find that THEORY represents the best explanation for a phenomenon based solely on the proof (data and hypothesis analysis), present at that time. Which means that there is solid evidence behind it. Which makes creationism NOT a theory, because the only evidence supporting it is a book.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


You make a lot of sense. Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather eat without machines as much as possible.
It may be voluntary but it's not right. Unless it's Old Farmer John milking a cow I don't want it.
Same for plants. Grow your own! Cheaper, healthier..

I just don't want any part of it. I won't eat your cows or Jewish cows.

Originally posted by Kratos1220
No, not the only reason, but doesn't a significant part of not eating meat have to do with where it came from and how it was obtained?

I don't think everybody knows why they eat meat. They just do, and when they are put in a defensive position they defend themselves. Some do the fight or flight. It still amazes me who gets accused of the FOF syndrome and who actually does it.

Do you think vegetarians would eat meat if it came from plants and the animal element was removed?

To me, I think the meat on bones are also vegetation. Vegetation isn't defined by the immobility of its roots even if the word 'plant' would qualify more as such, but then buried animals would be the same as to 'plant' them.

Some realize that the meat on bones isn't really what they want to eat, or maybe that is only true for humans that have fangs.

So say youre on a plane and it crashes into the side of an ice and snow covered mountain. PEople start dying off and there is no other food...

Frankly ImaginaryReality, I can see why you took that name. You live in one. You use words like sentient which really have no fixed definition. You keep bringing up CoQ10 which is made by your body, as an excuse. You use the word cull. You claim a meat diet is better and that you have numerous studies, when 10 exist for every one you have saying the opposite.

Someone pinch that kid and wake him up.

I'm not denying we were made to eat meat.
Eating meat made us what we are today!
But also in the making of what we are now, we've grown sympathy. And I use my every time I open my mouth to eat.
Unlike the lion who eats animals near it's watering hole.

sentient - 1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

This pretty much covers every living thing on the planet.

Originally posted by Bones_

It may be voluntary but it's not right. Unless it's Old Farmer John milking a cow I don't want it.

Why is it not right? The cows want to be milked because without it they are in pain when the milk builds up. They choose to walk into the mahcine when they want, not when a farmer tells them, they get fed at the same time and in return the farmers get more milk per cow, everyone wins! Also the cows are tagged so that if a cow keeps entering to many times the machine stops it, realising the cow is just after food and milking would be harmful to the animal.

Really now what could be wrong with that?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Bones_

It may be voluntary but it's not right. Unless it's Old Farmer John milking a cow I don't want it.

Why is it not right? The cows want to be milked because without it they are in pain when the milk builds up. They choose to walk into the mahcine when they want, not when a farmer tells them, they get fed at the same time and in return the farmers get more milk per cow, everyone wins! Also the cows are tagged so that if a cow keeps entering to many times the machine stops it, realising the cow is just after food and milking would be harmful to the animal.

Really now what could be wrong with that?

Which machine shoots it full of antibiotics and hormones?

Also it must be an imaginary reality in which all cows are milked like you described.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Chickens are a whole other story and something everyone should be ashamed of. The majority of chickens are treated hoirribly...That is no way to treat a life form.

Oh and don't get me started on battery hens for eggs. Buy free range guys, proper free range, if you can visit a local farm. the eggs might have a little muck on them but you can watch the chickens running around and know they're happy.

this is an interesting point - because now free range eggs are cheaper and more available than ever before - and this situation will only continue to improve

it took time, thinking, new attitudes...finally people start to see - real change can and does happen