Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by rusethorcain

You have some hostility issues, a callous disregard for life, an unpleasant way of interacting with people and you don't spell so good. Feel better?

Yeah erm if you're going to criticise someones spelling you better be damn sure you get your grammar right - "you don't spell so good".



[edit on 30-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I tried desperately to resist but when opinions are given as fact without any basis, at all i just can't resist.

Yeah a tiger is smarter than us because it agrees with your oneness, i would be interested to see you quoting that as a tiger rips you apart for food.

If you don't think a Tiger is smart then there is something wrong with you. Unless you yourself can make a gun, let's see you outsmart one. It doesn't count if you can go buy one from a store. Kind of gets rid of intelligence.

No sorry there is no evidence, at all that eating fruits, veggies and buts will make you smarter and the according to numerous scientists the brain evolved to it's current point because our ancestors started eating meat, which was a more dense source of energy. This left time to develop complex social structures. Cooking also did this as the act of cooking breaks down cmplex molecules and enables us to spend less time eating. A vegetable diet tends to mean a great dealof time eating.

I am glad you know more than people that have studied nutrition for a career. The only reason Apes have a smaller brain than us is because they need a stronger muscle to use when chewing, hence the skull shape. You cannot really think that you understand when we are eating meat just to get the nutrients that the plant provided for the animals that eat plants?

Oh i agree but meat is far from crap food. Lean meat is assimilated by the body very well. Compare it to complex carbohydrates and plant proteins which have to be combined in various quantities to provide complete proteins. I mean beans have to be combined with a grain to provide a complete protein and the body has to process these together whereas animal protein can simply be absorbed.

Seriously? Is the reason why meat can be digested so well and that it is so good the reason why it sits in our intestinal tract for years? It provides cholesterol(and is our only source of it) that clogs our arteries and causes heart problems. And as for the bean statement...I hope anyone is not just eating beans, people are known to enjoy variety. Try eating just meat and see how that goes for you. Variety regardless of vegetarianism is good for a diet.

That doesn't quite work when atheists such as myself still consider us to be above most animals. You really see things as black and white don't you.

To think that you or humans are above anything in the animal kingdom is wrong. I did not say they can compete intellectually but we are brethren with all living (and dead) things. "Atheists" such as yourself obviously don't understand what I am trying to say, inform me in which ways other than consciousness that we differ from animals.

Ok now you are an atheist and dare to say religion is what has caused this belief that humans are above animals yet here i am, an atheist that thinks otherwise. Please don't use your atheism to promote veganism, it is utterly stupid to do so.

I understand we came from a supernova, the atmos within my body were once a part of a star and that to me is absolutely incredible. However because i share iron atoms with a rabbit does not mean i value that rabbit above a human life. If you want to argue such a simplistic view as star stuff then a rock has as much value as a human life because they both contain iron.

I think you haven't really thought this threw.

My "Atheism" promotes nothing, and if you still think we are all not the same but say we came from the same source you need to think a little harder about things. Everything is equal, not better than humans I do not think I ever said that, but whatever. Yes you are the same as a rock absolutely. I never said anything about the molecular level but we are made of the same atoms.

It seems you still have the Religious idea that we are something "special" when indeed we are not. everything is all the same. Period.

Originally posted by predator0187

Seriously? Is the reason why meat can be digested so well and that it is so good the reason why it sits in our intestinal tract for years? It provides cholesterol(and is our only source of it) that clogs our arteries and causes heart problems. And as for the bean statement...I hope anyone is not just eating beans, people are known to enjoy variety. Try eating just meat and see how that goes for you. Variety regardless of vegetarianism is good for a diet.

Actually, it's not the only source. Saturated fat and trans fat contain a ton of cholesterol. Any food with hydrogenated oils (found in practically everything these days) is packed with cholesterol. Meat certainly is a source, but far from the only source by a long shot.

Edited to add: I was under the impression that only red meat sits in the digestive system if one eats too much of it?

[edit on 30-12-2009 by Kratos1220]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Our ape brothers came from the missing link and as we divurged our ancestors developed tool use. We developed fire, your ancestors developed fire and ate cooked meat. Cooking became mainstream, not only because of the taste but cooking breaks down complex molecules and enables us to spend less time eating. So no eating it raw is simply stupid and btw many vegetables can't be eaten raw, kidney beans, heard of hem?

Cooking also kills the nutrients that we think are so good in food. And, just in case you have not been paying attention to science lately everything uses "tools" from lizards to apes. And did you just call apes "our brothers"? How can the be when they are below us?

I responded to this via U2U as i just didn't want to enter this thread again but you completely ignored it. I would love for you to provide figures for this incredibly bold statement. I can tell you right now that if you can provide reputable figures for this i will give up meat. Honestly i really would i promise you on my own life.

Guess what you know nothing of human physiology because humans actually produce cholesterol within their bodies and to think it all comes from diet is utterly stupid. My next door neighbor wendy is a strict vegan and yet high colesterol runs in her family and she herself is currently on drugs to suppress it. You sir/madam are a danger to those who wish to be informed about such matters.

www.diseaseproof.com...

www.ehealthmd.com...

Quote from site:
Only animal foods contain cholesterol; plant foods do not contain cholesterol.

Firstly a vegetarian diet is weird because it goes against evolution in modern humans. Modern humans have developed alongside meat consumption so in that sense it is weird. However i, as a meat eater say you can do as you wish, i just don't care. A 98% chance of dying from meat, again where do you get that figure? The mortality rate of humans is 100%.

In case you didn't notice there are other ways to die. Nothing can go "against" evolution that kind of defeats the purpose of the word. The only reason we ever ate meat is because we didn't understand agriculture, now that we can domesticate plants we are at a different level then what we evolved from. We can get all of our protein and nutrients from plants because we can make them grow for us.

You have proven that you are not educated, you think cholesterol comes only from diet, you seem to think vegans won't suffer heart disease, you seem to think that meat consumptions causes 98% mortality. Seriously where do you get these figures?

www.goveg.com...

Studies show that people who experience frequent heart attacks often have high cholesterol levels; many also smoke or have high blood pressure. When these factors are controlled, heart attacks become rare. Foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, such as meat and dairy products, are the major contributors to high cholesterol levels. In fact, animal products are the only sources of dietary cholesterol.

No a headache can be from lack of water but numerous things can cause a headache including stress, electrolyte problems (which can be caused by over consumption of water), various gases, caffeine, sugar, numerous medical conditions.............well i mean basically you are just either ignorant orlying here.

No I am not only saying from a lack of water but water cures it.
www.watercure.com...
nutrition.about.com...
www.buzzle.com...

A relatively unknown fact about headaches, even chronic and severe headaches, is they are often either caused or exacerbated by dehydration.

Originally posted by predator0187
If you don't think a Tiger is smart then there is something wrong with you. Unless you yourself can make a gun, let's see you outsmart one. It doesn't count if you can go buy one from a store. Kind of gets rid of intelligence.

Firstly i have the technical ability to make a gun, however simply being unable to kill a tiger with my bare hands does not make me less intelligent, just evolution designed me to use tools. Basically this argument you provide is utterly ridiculous. I could set a nice trap that would kill a tigr, or a bear.

Originally posted by predator0187
I am glad you know more than people that have studied nutrition for a career. The only reason Apes have a smaller brain than us is because they need a stronger muscle to use when chewing, hence the skull shape. You cannot really think that you understand when we are eating meat just to get the nutrients that the plant provided for the animals that eat plants?

Which people do you speak of? I studied nutrition as an athelete approaching national competition standards, I was only stopped due to a rather unfortunate genetic illness. However your response was loaded with ridicule instead of dealing with the actual discussion.

Apes have a smaller brain because they diverged from our ancestor which provided both subsets. Also you do understand that apes have to eat up to 14 hours a day to provide their required nutrients. Whereas we can aquire ours within a few short meals, Cooking meals and eating meat provided us with a fast source of calories. This is scientific fact, if you choose to deny it then fine but it is well established.

I recommended your read "Catching Fire, how cooking made us human"

Originally posted by predator0187
Seriously? Is the reason why meat can be digested so well and that it is so good the reason why it sits in our intestinal tract for years? It provides cholesterol(and is our only source of it) that clogs our arteries and causes heart problems. And as for the bean statement...I hope anyone is not just eating beans, people are known to enjoy variety. Try eating just meat and see how that goes for you. Variety regardless of vegetarianism is good for a diet.

No i'm tired of this utter rubbish it is getting beyond a joke. You know nothign of basic human anatomy. Meat does not sit in us for years and once again it is not the only source of cholesterol. I did not say eat just beans i stated clearly that to get a complete protein you need beans and rice as an example whereas a meat eater can just eat a piece of chicken and the chicken does not need to be broken down and then recombined to form the necessary proteins for growth and maintenance.

However your utterly ignorant comments on cholesterol really need addresing. I don't really need to fish for incredibly detailed sources because for once wikipedia is quite accurate. although hey if you insist i will find you detailed medical data and happily embarrass your utterly ignorant stance. You are an embarrassment to other vegans and i hope they distance themselves from you.

en.wikipedia.org...

About 20–25% of total daily cholesterol production occurs in the liver; other sites of high synthesis rates include the intestines, adrenal glands, and reproductive organs. Synthesis within the body starts with one molecule of acetyl CoA and one molecule of acetoacetyl-CoA, which are dehydrated to form 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl CoA (HMG-CoA). This molecule is then reduced to mevalonate by the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase. This step is an irreversible step in cholesterol synthesis and is the site of action for the statins (HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors).

This explains why even vegans can have high cholesterol. You see some people are genetically pre determined to have high cholesterol. Just like my vegan neighbor, let me state that again as you either ignored it in my last post or glossed over it.

My neighbor is a strict vegan and has high cholesterol, her entire family suffers from high cholesterol and high heart disease

Care to retract your utterly ignorant statements now?

Originally posted by predator0187
To think that you or humans are above anything in the animal kingdom is wrong. I did not say they can compete intellectually but we are brethren with all living (and dead) things. "Atheists" such as yourself obviously don't understand what I am trying to say, inform me in which ways other than consciousness that we differ from animals.

Well that's the thing, i was not saying we differ in any way other than conciousness and it is that conciousness that makes us different and allows us to eat other animals. If we take your argument that conciousness makes no difference then all animals are game for eating.

Originally posted by predator0187
My "Atheism" promotes nothing, and if you still think we are all not the same but say we came from the same source you need to think a little harder about things. Everything is equal, not better than humans I do not think I ever said that, but whatever. Yes you are the same as a rock absolutely. I never said anything about the molecular level but we are made of the same atoms.

It seems you still have the Religious idea that we are something "special" when indeed we are not. everything is all the same. Period.

No not period. I am very different from a rock due to the combination of my atoms. I am able to think, a rock is not and that makes me special, at least compared to a rock

I wonder how old you are, at the moment you sound very very young or very very extremist. Being young is fine, being an extremist would explain your views.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Or they rely in using less meat but not eliminating it. I am happy to say that excessive meat consumption causes disease, you will never get an argument out of me saying otherwise. However using small amounts of meat is perfectly safe.

Absolutely, I agree, a serving per week is good, but who seriously keeps up with that? People do not eat like that anymore. I just choose to get rid of meat because I eliminate all the bad aspects of it. Why give my body bad things if I can choose not to?

And please some respect is due not matter what you think of me or my thoughts please respect. I have not disrespected you once, and I enjoy informing people. Everything I say is proven and I will look for links for you but do not insult me in the process.

www.celestialhealing.net...

Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."

And much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man's body hasn't adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.

Originally posted by predator0187
Cooking also kills the nutrients that we think are so good in food. And, just in case you have not been paying attention to science lately everything uses "tools" from lizards to apes. And did you just call apes "our brothers"? How can the be when they are below us?

They share a link with us on the evolutionary tree, hence our brothers. Also i stated clearly in my earlier posts that many apes have shown a self awareness that means we cannot morally eat them. As for cooking killing nutrients in food you do realise that various studies have shown that raw food diets can result in lack of nutrients in the iet right? You see whilst cooking can and does break down vitamins (but not minerals) it is also shown that raw foods leave the vitamins inside of double cell walled plant cells which the human digestive system struggles to crack. Cooking breaks down cells walls and makes nutrients more availble. I quoted you a book earlier, i beg you to read it and cleanse some of your ignorant ideas.

It won't turn you into a meat eater but it wil address some of your ideas which completely lack scientific support.

Originally posted by predator0187

Only animal foods contain cholesterol; plant foods do not contain cholesterol.

Yes only animal foods contain cholesterol but you ignored the fact that the body produces cholesterol on it's own and indeed that cholesterol has a very real biological function. I find it interesting you absolutely ignored that fact, completely glossed over it. I guess people like you can't face facts and choose to simply believe facts against your views don't exist.

Lets be clear i am not arguing against veganism, only your rather ignorant idea that cholesterol doesn't exist in the body unless it is ingested, as you stated in your earlier post. You can try to lie your way out of saying that bu ti quoted you clearly so you can't escape it

Originally posted by predator0187
In case you didn't notice there are other ways to die. Nothing can go "against" evolution that kind of defeats the purpose of the word. The only reason we ever ate meat is because we didn't understand agriculture, now that we can domesticate plants we are at a different level then what we evolved from. We can get all of our protein and nutrients from plants because we can make them grow for us.

Hang on don't deflect, you stated that 98% of disease is caused by meat eating, you stated that 98% of mortality is caused by meat eating and i ask you again to provide evidence for your utterly stupid claims. If you can't then just admit you were pulling those figures out of your head at random.

Originally posted by predator0187
www.goveg.com...

Studies show that people who experience frequent heart attacks often have high cholesterol levels; many also smoke or have high blood pressure. When these factors are controlled, heart attacks become rare. Foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, such as meat and dairy products, are the major contributors to high cholesterol levels. In fact, animal products are the only sources of dietary cholesterol.

Yes animal sources are the only sources of dietary cholesterol i won't disagree, however the body produces it's own cholesterol and once again there are vegans with high cholesterol levels. I advocate a moderate meat intake of no more than 5 times a week and i also advocate meats which contain little to no cholesterol. You do realise that there are meats with vitrually no cholesterol............right? Also your article mentions smoking, well i can agree smoking is bad but it's hardly somethign that should be included in a discussion about vegan vs meat eaters and your article itself is highly biased. Please provide me a peer reviewed source that used a comparison of moderate meat eaters vs vegans.

Originally posted by predator0187
No I am not only saying from a lack of water but water cures it.
www.watercure.com...
nutrition.about.com...
www.buzzle.com...

A relatively unknown fact about headaches, even chronic and severe headaches, is they are often either caused or exacerbated by dehydration.

Oh i know that fact but you stated it categorically that water causes it. Be careful with your words sir.

Originally posted by predator0187
Did you know that a headache is from lack of water, go drink a few glasses of water and your headache will leave.

Originally posted by predator0187
Absolutely, I agree, a serving per week is good, but who seriously keeps up with that? People do not eat like that anymore. I just choose to get rid of meat because I eliminate all the bad aspects of it. Why give my body bad things if I can choose not to?

And please some respect is due not matter what you think of me or my thoughts please respect. I have not disrespected you once, and I enjoy informing people. Everything I say is proven and I will look for links for you but do not insult me in the process.

I respect everyone unless they provide false data, lie and pull figures out of the air. After your 98% of diseases are caused by eating meat comment you lost every bit of respect i had for you. You can earn it back by providing real figures and cutting out the lies.

Further i am one of the people who sticks to the 4 or 5 servings of meat per week, i am very strict on it. I eat only lean meats with a fat content under 3% and i make sure to trim any fat i can see off of the meat. So just because you lack the willpower to stick to the diet does not maen everyone else should stop eating it.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


www.heimat-fuer-tiere.de...

Editor's Note

The following article was written by medical specialists and therefore contains technical terms. Nevertheless this article concisely summarizes the results of a large number of current medical studies (see references) in a form seldom found.


Risks incurred by consuming meat

In industrial countries, life-style diseases such as obesity, diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart disease, and cancers are widespread. There is an abundance of epidemiologic data showing that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk for these diseases.

Nevertheless, meat, sausages and fish are still considered to be a part of the normal diet. The myth that these are especially healthy and valuable foodstuffs is still widespread. Many members of the medical profession also still believe that meat is a vital force in your diet.

In modern epidemiological models, the public health risk of different diets is classified differently to those of a few centuries ago. A low intake of vegetable foodstuffs is now considered a risk factor for phytochemical deficiency diseases, including many tumor diseases, cardiovascular disease and degenerative diseases.

The following presents factual data demonstrating that meat consumption is connected with considerable health risks. This information is based on scientific publications available in the Medline database, either as abstracts or original works.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


It was David Wolfe that stated that, I am trying to bring it up in a link...I will try and find it.

I think it was in "Food Matters" the documentary movie.

Again I do have willpower but no meat is better for us.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by predator0187]

Reply to Kratos1220:

You dislike my comparison of eating cheeseburgers or steak subs to eating children, and since you say PETA has similar rhetoric, you hate PETA. In an attempt to be succinct, I perhaps didn't make the point I intended.

First, I *can* compare eating meat to eating children, in the sense that both are morally wrong. I did not say equally morally wrong.

Second, my point is that disliking 'morally superior' vegans telling others what to do is like a convicted criminal saying to a 'morally superior' judge "But can't we just live and let live?" If indeed meat is murder, animal rights advocates should be working to end it by changing others' behavior.

Third, I didn't see an answer to either of the two questions in my post or the one in my signature; I don't see how not liking what another organization says makes my point invalid.

Originally posted by Kratos1220

Originally posted by Jumbles
(For those with the "let's all be tolerant and not impose our beliefs on others" argument, would you be "tolerant" of someone eating your baby?)

Wait a minute, did you just compare having a cheeseburger to being a cannibal and eating people's children? See, this kind of stuff is why I hate PETA. If you think eating your neighbor's baby and treating yourself to a nice cheese steak sub are even remotely comparable, I think you might want to step back and rethink that position.

Jumbles was attempting to explain why some vegetarians are 'preachy' or militant in their views; the reason being that it is because they view the killing and eating of animals as abhorrent and therefore feel justified in trying to persuade people to accept their viewpoint.

They used an analogy of killing babies to try and get across just how abhorrent the practice is to them by comparing it with something that you too would find abhorrent. That is, it is the level of abhorrence that makes vegetarians so passionate about their cause - just as passionate as anyone would be about people killing babies.

What they were not doing was saying that eating meat is the 'same' as killing babies.

I used to be preachy when I first became vegetarian. I was 18 and knew it all, although I don't think that attitude is just limited to vegetarian teenagers

As I grew older I realised the futility of trying to change people's views and accepted the right of people to make their own decisions. I still don't like the fact that people eat meat but who am I to tell other people what to do?

I rarely discuss my vegetarianism, this thread being one of the few times I have in a number of years. I generally try to keep quiet about it. When it does come up it is usually when out dining with meat-eaters - It gets discussed at every work Christmas meal I have ever been to. What happens is my meal will arrive and people realise I am vegetarian and immediately start saying how much they like meat and how natural it all is etc as though I'm interested I would much rather eat my meal in peace but I'm always made to justify myself.

I have a theory as to why people do this, which is that my choice to not eat meat is seen by others as an implicit criticism of their own choice to eat it. So even if I say nothing people still feel compelled to defend their own position against my perceived ' judgement' of them. Usually of course the arguments aren't as erudite or compelling as some of those on this thread but are on the lines of 'I like meat so I eat it', 'animals kill animals so it's all right for me too' (also given as arguments by some on this thread ).

Christmas dinner is probably THE worst time to try and persuade someone that eating meat is wrong but invariably I find myself having to, not because I'm preachy but because I'm made to justify my own position.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by Kratos1220

Originally posted by Jumbles
(For those with the "let's all be tolerant and not impose our beliefs on others" argument, would you be "tolerant" of someone eating your baby?)

Wait a minute, did you just compare having a cheeseburger to being a cannibal and eating people's children? See, this kind of stuff is why I hate PETA. If you think eating your neighbor's baby and treating yourself to a nice cheese steak sub are even remotely comparable, I think you might want to step back and rethink that position.

Jumbles was attempting to explain why some vegetarians are 'preachy' or militant in their views; the reason being that it is because they view the killing and eating of animals as abhorrent and therefore feel justified in trying to persuade people to accept their viewpoint.

They used an analogy of killing babies to try and get across just how abhorrent the practice is to them by comparing it with something that you too would find abhorrent. That is, it is the level of abhorrence that makes vegetarians so passionate about their cause - just as passionate as anyone would be about people killing babies.

What they were not doing was saying that eating meat is the 'same' as killing babies.

I used to be preachy when I first became vegetarian. I was 18 and knew it all, although I don't think that attitude is just limited to vegetarian teenagers

As I grew older I realised the futility of trying to change people's views and accepted the right of people to make their own decisions. I still don't like the fact that people eat meat but who am I to tell other people what to do?

I rarely discuss my vegetarianism, this thread being one of the few times I have in a number of years. I generally try to keep quiet about it. When it does come up it is usually when out dining with meat-eaters - It gets discussed at every work Christmas meal I have ever been to. What happens is my meal will arrive and people realise I am vegetarian and immediately start saying how much they like meat and how natural it all is etc as though I'm interested

I would much rather eat my meal in peace but I'm always made to justify myself.

I have a theory as to why people do this, which is that my choice to not eat meat is seen by others as an implicit criticism of their own choice to eat it. So even if I say nothing people still feel compelled to defend their own position against my perceived ' judgement' of them. Usually of course the arguments aren't as erudite or compelling as some of those on this thread but are on the lines of 'I like meat so I eat it', 'animals kill animals so it's all right for me too' (also given as arguments by some on this thread

).

Christmas dinner is probably THE worst time to try and persuade someone that eating meat is wrong but invariably I find myself having to, not because I'm preachy but because I'm made to justify my own position.

Conspiracy theorists usually do the opposite of what mainstream tells us. And mainstream tells us to eat meat and they have for centuries. When they say that, well then it needs to be questioned. But now they are trying a little psychological attack with WHO saying to go veg to get us doing the opposite keep us eating meat. They pump commercials day and night telling us to eat meat and we need it for protein makes us good and strong but ask any vege body builder and they tell you its bull. So in the end they still win by keeping us eating meat so we still die of heart disease and attacks, high cholesterol, cancer and myriad of other things that come with their high consumption of hormone and chemical filled meat feeding the animals gm.
What people dont realise is that they got their pockets filled in both sides so either way they still are able to attack us from every position.

You have to play them with the same game their little psychological attacks and be weary of it. Try not to do the opposite too often as it can happen alot their tricks.



[edit on 31-12-2009 by Applesandoranges]

Thanks for posting this Primary Perception c2c interview with Clive Backster -- fascinating research!

primaryperception.com...

[edit on 31-12-2009 by drew hempel]

This thread got real ugly, real fast.


Can't we just all get along and order pizza ?? pepperoni on half and veggies on the other ??

Can i get a clarification from meat eaters what magical essential nutrient meat cows, fish, wild game and birds contains that is not contained in plants? besides b12 please because this is a highly controversial nutrient, I'm of the opinion you get all you need from natural bacteria and minute amounts of insect material. I also believe the amount you need is highly overstated due to the comprised digestion of most Americans.

Imaginaryreality you stated you tried a vegetarian diet and felt lethargic?? so somehow this deems meat healthier then a primarily plant based diet? You do realize almost every long lived culture subsist on primarily plant based foods?

A little meat or wild fish isn't gonna hurt you in moderation(less then 4 times a week) but is in no way necessary for a extremely healthy active life. Just out of interest what did your vegetarian diet consist of?

I think everyone should go watch avatar again.

"your body remains to become part of the people, your soul is with aywa"
Not an exact quote but hey, our earth is like Pandora too. We have severely damaged the cycle of things.

reply to post by Rawhemp


You can get all the B12 you need from flax seed and brewers yeast.

In fact almost every vitamin/mineral named can be sourced to 3 items: Wheat germ, oat bran, and brewers yeast. The missing few left out, can be found in leafy greens.
Years ago there was a study done on the cheapest diet that would sustain life. One of the ingredients in this mix was lard. The reason I think is because your body needs oil to function and nut seed sources were too expensive or unavailable to consider useful for the study.
I have wanted to stop eating meat because I want to take meditation up seriously and learn the Merkaba. (I think it will be a useful skill if 2012 lives up to the hype) And there seems to be something contradictory and ineffective about trying to hone in on the prime life source while I have all these dead animals inside.

reply to post by Applesandoranges


You are right. It is conditioning designed to kill us.
I have also heard that consuming meat leads to more aggressive, behavior in humans. I don't know how this happens but I have tried to observe to see if this is true and some things actually do point me in this direction.

One of my vegan friends tell me that animals can recognize a vegetarian because she has noticed animals are much more friendly toward her. I think Animals already love me...at least they manage to find the house and never leave, so if this is true and I continue my New Years resolution to ban meat eating... I should soon have a game farm here.