Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

“Plants are not static or silly,” said Monika Hilker of the Institute of Biology at the Free University of Berlin. “They respond to tactile cues, they recognize different wavelengths of light, they listen to chemical signals, they can even talk” through chemical signals. Touch, sight, hearing, speech. “These are sensory modalities and abilities we normally think of as only being in animals,” Dr. Hilker said.

Plants can’t run away from a threat but they can stand their ground. “They are very good at avoiding getting eaten,” said Linda Walling of the University of California, Riverside. “It’s an unusual situation where insects can overcome those defenses.” At the smallest nip to its leaves, specialized cells on the plant’s surface release chemicals to irritate the predator or sticky goo to entrap it. Genes in the plant’s DNA are activated to wage systemwide chemical warfare, the plant’s version of an immune response. We need terpenes, alkaloids, phenolics — let’s move.

Now, if you're a political vegetarian--based on the belief that widespread practice of a vegetarian diet would produce a sustainable agriculture and social justice--then this thread really isn't for you, though feel free to contribute to the topic at hand.

If you're a nutritional vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet produces better health than an omnivorous diet--then this thread really isn't for you either, though feel free to contribute to the topic at hand.

But, if you're a moral vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet reduces bloodshed-then this thread is definitely for you and the article provided will lay the foundations for the topic at hand:

Plants are alive too!

Dr. Hilker and her colleagues, as well as other research teams, have found that certain plants can sense when insect eggs have been deposited on their leaves and will act immediately to rid themselves of the incubating menace. They may sprout carpets of tumorlike neoplasms to knock the eggs off, or secrete ovicides to kill them, or sound the S O S. Reporting in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Dr. Hilker and her coworkers determined that when a female cabbage butterfly lays her eggs on a brussels sprout plant and attaches her treasures to the leaves with tiny dabs of glue, the vigilant vegetable detects the presence of a simple additive in the glue, benzyl cyanide. Cued by the additive, the plant swiftly alters the chemistry of its leaf surface to beckon female parasitic wasps. Spying the anchored bounty, the female wasps in turn inject their eggs inside, the gestating wasps feed on the gestating butterflies, and the plant’s problem is solved.

Here’s the lurid Edgar Allan Poetry of it: that benzyl cyanide tip-off had been donated to the female butterfly by the male during mating. “It’s an anti-aphrodisiac pheromone, so that the female wouldn’t mate anymore,” Dr. Hilker said. “The male is trying to ensure his paternity, but he ends up endangering his own offspring.”

Fascinating, isn't it?

I know how protective many vegetarians and vegans are of their ideologies (and some omnivores to a lesser extent) and how, eventually, this thread just may turn into a mindless battle of vegetarians vs. omnivores; however, I'd like to focus this discussion on the article provided and its contents.

Furthermore, I'd also like to deter from nutritional and political "vegan vs. omnivore" views and arguments, as this discussion should focus solely on the morality of consuming animals in its comparison to the consumption of plants, as well as the science and legitimacy of "just how alive are plants?"

So, my question is: What's the difference between consuming animals and consuming plants?

I really do hope this can be a civil discussion.

Edit to add: I was cooking burssels sprouts while writing this thread.

-Dev



[edit on 28-12-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

[edit on 29-12-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Here's an additive for political vegetarians too.

Many farmers and ranchers lives depend on raising livestock, so it will not help agriculture, but rather destroy it.

and nutritional. . .

there are some proteins that humans need to function properly that are only found in animals. without them, immune deficiencies can form.

and to the OP. . .

great find!!! its about time that vegans open up their eyes to the reality of existence. S+F!

Thank you for posting this. I;ve always felt that plants were sentient beings and deserving the same respect we give animal life. Why vegans think animals "feel" more than plants do has always eluded me. If you're going to embrace the earth, love ALL of it.

there are some proteins that humans need to function properly that are only found in animals. without them, immune deficiencies can form.

There are some vitamins found only in algae from Pluto that humans need to survive.

You are going to have to do better than just randomly stating supposed facts please.

Thanks.

In response to the moral issue: Are there any animals that live for only a season, roughly 4-5 months and then die anyway?

I can imagine those poor little baby brussel sprouts being ripped from the clutches of their greiving mothers,

They call themselves Vegans, yet if you were to view them from a serene field of asparagus you would see only monsters.


and what about me ? what do I eat you ask ??

Rocks.

Thanks for the quick responses, but we've already started the to turn to off topic arguments.

Please try and stick to Moral issues and stay clear of Nutritional and Political viewpoints. Thanks.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

I really do hope this can be a civil discussion.

not sure I believe you're being sincere

:-)

wonder why the title:

Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

seems a little antagonistic (and a little smarty pants) from the get go

but - just for the heck of it...

assuming I have made my choice because I feel it's morally wrong to eat animals - and then supposing you are correct - and it's JUST as morally wrong to harm the flora as it is the fauna - what do you suggest I eat?

do you think we're being hypocritical - we vegetarians? naive? silly?

it becomes a choice between the lesser of two evils I suppose - even if that seems a little arbitrary

now what?

:-)

reply to post by watcher73


Many insects live simply to reproduce, and then die immediately or are killed as food by other animals. Their lifespans can be as short as a day.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Wow, I'm glad I don't have any moral objections to the food I eat.

People who refuse to eat certain types of food for moral reasons are painting themselves into a corner. Almost everything we eat involves killing or harming plants or animals in some way. If you think about it too much, you will end up starving to death for your principals.

I guess some vegan's will cop out to the old "if it doesn't have a face" argument. It must be easier to eat it if you don't have to look it in the eye.

As for me, I just had veal for dinner. Mmmmmmn yummy baby cow, drools....

there are some proteins that humans need to function properly that are only found in animals. without them, immune deficiencies can form.

That is not true, plants hold the substitute for everything.
Mixed vegedarian diet will offer all the proteins found in meat.

You can even take the milk from animals that has all the basic proteins needed and make chease out of it or yougurt or just leave it as simple milk. Animals can provide without being killed.

If this thread is about the moral side of a vegetarian, then I should say that we humans must do anything it takes to at least lower animal suffering and lower the animals that get killed.

Who are we to decide who lives and who dies. Life is very special, it's more than anything.

Don't forget all of the tasty micro-organisms and teeny tiny insects that inhabit veggies.


Personally, I get by on sunlight and self-satisfaction.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


It's a title to get YOUR attention, as well as the other members, to participate. Simple as that. (And it's not the title I thought of, it's the title of the article)

And, yeah, I'm a smartass. But I can still have a civil discussion.

assuming I have made my choice because I feel it's morally wrong to eat animals - and then supposing you are correct - and it's JUST as morally wrong to harm the flora as it is the fauna - what do you suggest I eat?

I think you (or we) should eat the foods that were/are intended for us.

do you think we're being hypocritical - we vegetarians? naive? silly?

Possibly, yes. But not absolutely, or purposefully. I'm not suggesting cognitive dissonance, but simply suggesting that perhaps many vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants truly are.

it becomes a choice between the lesser of two evils I suppose - even if that seems a little arbitrary

It doesn't have to be. But, it's ultimately your choice.

-Dev

It's looking into the eyes of any animal that makes it difficult to devour them.
They're spirited -
We have to eat something -
It will have to be the plant.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by watcher73

 

Many insects live simply to reproduce, and then die immediately or are killed as food by other animals. Their lifespans can be as short as a day.

-Dev

I knew someone would say something about insects, but we mostly dont eat them.

Do brussel sprouts like to live or are they simply following a preprogrammed code to reproduce?

What I mean is no nervous system. Nothing really to distinguish from what they like or dislike. Apparently they can sense leaf damage, but is there pain? Certainly not in the classical sense. All you have really pointed out is that plants are equipped with some defense against insects and other things. These just seem to be evolutionary responses. The word you used, "like", is a total assumption on your part. You offered up no real evidence.

If I cut your skin it will scab over and heal and has nothing at all to do with your skin liking to be cut or not.

I'm afraid that until you put up evidence of some sort of brain or nervous system (even if not the type we are used to seeing) then youre just grasping at straws flying off the man you set up.



[edit on 28-12-2009 by watcher73]

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

do you think we're being hypocritical - we vegetarians? naive? silly?

Possibly, yes. But not absolutely, or purposefully. I'm not suggesting cognitive dissonance, but simply suggesting that perhaps many vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants truly are.

forgive me - which is it - hypocritical, naive or silly? :-)

I have to ask two things:

are you suggesting that the same people who choose not to eat animals because they believe it to be cruel would somehow care less about the suffering of plants if it's true that plants do suffer?

really? :-)

how do you figure?

next - forget about cognitive dissonance - where do you stand?

you say vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants really are? that's an accusation of sorts right there - implying that we somehow are a little slow - or less caring than you - because you do understand - and also care

so - you think eat everything then because it's only fair? or - are you giving up food?

it becomes a choice between the lesser of two evils I suppose - even if that seems a little arbitrary

It doesn't have to be. But, it's ultimately your choice.

it doesn't have to be what?

Possibly, yes. But not absolutely, or purposefully. I'm not suggesting cognitive dissonance, but simply suggesting that perhaps many vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants truly are.

Is your hair alive? It is it has living cells, does it hurt when you get a hair cut ? Do you hurt when you shave? Nails are alive, they grow just like plants, are your nails hurting when you cut them?

No, all this things do not hurt, just like nails and hair.
Plants do not have a nervous sistem, a brain.

are you suggesting that the same people who choose not to eat animals because they believe it to be cruel would somehow care less about the suffering of plants if it's true that plants do suffer?

There is no plant suffering.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78


hair= dead cells, nails= dead cells, etc., etc.

come now the veggies are now trying to find things "wrong" with the OP's logic now.

reply to post by LocoHombre

come now the veggies are now trying to find things "wrong" with the OP's logic now.

there are things wrong with the OPs logic

:-)

Really if you had posted up something about mycorrhizae you might have a more cogent argument.

Plants feed fungi, fungi feed and water plants.

Fungi even defend plants against predators.

There's a pretty awesome picture of a fungus trapping a nematode.

www.packetinsider.com...

A looped strand on the fungus, consisting of three cells, swells three-fold when touched, trapping and killing the worm in one-tenth of a second. The strand then pierces the nematode’s body and begins extracting nutrients.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by watcher73]