Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer


No it really is the food we eat, we are well aware of how bad pizza hut is for us but we still eat it. Oh lots of people don't know the exact ingredients but they know it'll make them fat and unhealthy. So instead of making a pizza themselves with far less salt and sugar and no chemical additives or choosing a local shop that uses none of the bad ingredients they hop on down to pizza hut.

Not only that but it's the quantity of unhealthy food that people eat. People who eat fast food from dawn till dusk and do zero exercise, thn sit on some daytime program complaining about how fat they are and that it isn't their fault and how they need an operation. Pathetic the lot of them. You can eat fast food and stay thin, if you eat a really healthy diet the rest of the time and use it as a rare treat.

On the positive side of veganism and vegetarianism, as i have criticised them a bit, how many people using these diets are obese? Oh you get the odd few vegetarians who eat tons of cheese and manage to balloon up and vegans who go and pig out on as many carbs as they can but generally they are slim or within a sensible weight range. This can be achieved on a meat eating diet as well, but only if you stick to healthy cuts of meat, limited dairy and a sensible balance of fruit and veg.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Did you mean to reply to the other thread?

How does that actually fit better in this thread made to argue morals of vegetarianism?

One of my close friends is a vegetarian. I tease her all the time telling her that plants actually feel pain and are coherent, sentient beings. She doesn't seem to get it. Although I'm not going to let it alter my relationship with her, it just makes me somewhat upset how ignorant she can be about it. I just feel that she's fake. I sometimes feel like it's a Lennon-Chapman relationship, although I have no intention of either shooting her nor reading the catcher in the rye, haha.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


If something is eaten by something on a higher spiritual plane it reaches that spiritual plane also. Praying is done over the food, begging forgiveness, offering thanks, recognizing it has sacrificed itself for your sustenance. At least Indians and many cultures used to do this. Fading away now.

I get that plants have feeling since I depressed a couple of climbing vines. I took their will to climb away. I was trying to give them a larger trellis because they were climbing everything in sight, mad climbers both of them. Pink flowers everywhere. After I ripped them off the small trellis they were traumatized and both refuse to climb or flower again. I fertilized them, even apologized. I tried curling the vines around the big trellis myself. Nothing. Yet they will not die, just turned into two small unhappy green shrubs. They make me feel guilty everyday.

I think anyone with a "political stance" on what to eat is a freak. You should be damn happy to have food in the first place!

If I see bambi walking next to his mother and I'm needing food, I'll try for bambi (the mother could breed again) but I'll take what I can easiest. If I'm walking through a field with known good veggies, their mine. Dont really care If they have "feelings".

While animals (to an extent) have emotions in species higher up the food chain, typical food animals are just damn stupid. Not their fault, just a fact. I've had cows, goats, rabbits, and chickens.

Plants? Really? yeah, they are able to protect themselves but protection on that level is hardly the same a that of a predator.

Once more, just be happy you have anything to eat.

If you don't want the plants to suffer, eat fruits that drop to the ground by themselves.

Okay... so the plant has membranes and chemical reactions to register/generate input & output to drive it's self-preservation functions, rather than human neurons or a human's sense of "just or wrong or feelings" to drive it's preservation. It's all still "1's and 0's" operating in different ways to sustain life. To say that a plant's unique type of "0" it registers when fatally wounded is not valued by some more centralized part of the plant, and thus plants aren't "feeling" is incorrect.

If that is what you call self aware then ok.
I told you, my antibodies when I get sick will do the same, but it does not mean they are self aware.

The plant's initial registered "0" that causes the chemical reaction IS the plant's "feeling".

No because it's just a proccessing factor.

I'll explain again.
Let's say you are dead and this happened 30 seconds ago, all your cells are still alive but your brain is not. The human body has nervs.
Once you are brain dead you won't feel any nerve, because there is no where to transmit the information. Nervs alone are not enough to feel pain if there is not central nervous sistem to chanel the information and turn it into feeling.

Only something capabile of thoughts can do that.
Pain, joy, sad is a product of the mind alone. It's just imposible for a plant to generate this, to know it hurts.

Brain and mind are two things, the mind is where emotions are, feelings.
For that you need a very complex translation sistem to translate chemicals
into invisible things. It's like a gate you walk in and you go out changed.

There is a phisical realm and a non phisical realm.
The two are real, one involves mechanical things and actions and the other has thoughts, feelings and emotions.

For example tell me how do you see a law?
Are laws real? Yes. But do they exist as in touching them, as an object?
Do you think a plant would understand a law? or just proccesss the law anyway as a function?

Pain is part of the non phisical realm, it's not phisical because it happens in the mind as a result of chemical exchange translated into pain.
What plants do is they thake the chemical reaction and turns it in to action as a proccessing function, that is it, there is no mind. For joy,pain you need little connectors to jump up and down and cause that effect.

Everything you feel has a sort of connectors, for joy there are the happy connectors, for pain there are the connectors that cry. These are real and are in your brain placed in groups and when an electrical pulse of some sort hits them they react. It sounds like science fiction but it's real and it's how your brain works.

Then there is the part with the mind of the brain that percives the feeling in your head that is not related to phisical action and has to do only how you percive pain in an imaginative way, It's the special element in a human and animals and no one can explain it anyway, some percive it on a spiritual level but that is another story. The plant does not even have the structure to get here first of all.

Plants just don't have the biology to get here.
What they can do is proccess things as in functions and that is it.

1
Only some plants have membranes.

2
Plants that do not have this act the same as plants that have.

This can only imply that plants who has such things need it for faster metabolism because they are taller than other plants and need to speed up proccessing.









That is it.

By the way, i agree with R3p1R3p1 about the Yogis and that they do not have to eat or drink anything because of their meditating. I have seen videos of it. It is all about that balance! I wish i can perfect it.. R3p1R3p1, how do you know the balance will be restored in the upcoming years?

Why plants are not aware.



[edit on 30-12-2009 by pepsi78]

DP removed

[edit on 30-12-2009 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
One of my close friends is a vegetarian. I tease her all the time telling her that plants actually feel pain and are coherent, sentient beings.

It's not ok for her to be vegetarian? But it's ok for you to tease her?

Huh?

I'm sure she 'gets it' but she probably doesn't like being bickered constantly about what she eats.

...and this thread claims 'militant vegetarians' always hate on carnivores.

Obviously, the reverse is true where militant carnivores constantly disrespect the choices of vegetarians.

How many threads pop up on ATS that are about 'vegetarians attacking carnivores' or 'vegetarians militantly hijacking topics in order to attack carnivores'? So far, I've notice the reverse case. For example, this very thread made specifically against 'vegetarians' and this other thread was hijacked from a topic of a book on health issues and turned many times into be against 'vegetarians'. Hmmm.

reply to post by pepsi78


Please. Even water is self aware. Stands to reason plants are too. It is called survival. Because you cannot communicate with them does not mean they cannot communicate. It is another language, on another level you may not perceive.
Again, because you do not perceive it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you have such strong feelings in this area I wonder why?
People often try to stifle "life" because we can.
It is a power/dominion type of reflexive reaction, without thinking. Indeed, they may even feel like "thought" is not required. I think this goes against everything we are in our best selves.
I hope if there are other biological entities out there, superior to us, they do not hold your philosophy toward "life".


[edit on 30-12-2009 by rusethorcain]

reply to post by rusethorcain


sure

if you say so

[edit on 30-12-2009 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by dzonatas

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
One of my close friends is a vegetarian. I tease her all the time telling her that plants actually feel pain and are coherent, sentient beings.

It's not ok for her to be vegetarian? But it's ok for you to tease her?

Huh?

Yes.

Being a vegetarian is a stupid choice. As we see in this thread, it's clearly evident that plants also feel pain, so the moral issue of not killing animals is obsolete. The human body is designed to process meat and plants, look at your teeth. I can't recall how many arguments i've seen from vegetarians saying how unhealthy meat is for you. But they're wrong. If one chooses to eat only vegetables because they simply don't like the taste of meat, then that, to me, is the only viable excuse to become a vegetarian. And in any sense, these such cases should be extremely rare, as the human has been eating meat since before we evolved. It's in your mind and body to eat meat, naturally.

I'm obviously an omnivore, but i do admit to leaning towards being carnivorous. I eat meat nearly every day, probably for over 10 meals a week. Does this make me a terrible person who hates animals? Of course not. I don't hunt, I don't fish, I don't buy fur nor leather products. I love animals, I own 2 dogs and a bird. And i'll always own a dog and hopefully a cat in the future when i'm out of school. I sponsor a tiger down in florida that was rescued from a circus. I considered zoology as a profession. But i'll eat steak and wings till the day I die.

[edit on 12/30/2009 by Schmidt1989]

Your thread title is arrogant and insulting. One of the many moral arguments for being vegan is broadly defined as utilitarianism.

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
Being a vegetarian is a stupid choice.

Based on your idea of vegetarianism, so far, then it seems like the real point you made is that if you don't kill animals, then you are stupid.

Can you provide any source for such conjecture?

Also, can you provide any sources of when meat evolved and what existed before meat evolved? Not just evolution THEORY (or creationism THEORY) but real facts, especially the ones that show it didn't come from plants.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
Your thread title is arrogant and insulting. One of the many moral arguments for being vegan is broadly defined as utilitarianism.

Isn't that funny... I find it provocative and reasonable!

I eat meat because I was raised to and I cannot, like quitting smoking just drop it....yet ...It is my new years resolution....so funny I should see something on it here. I don't like vegetables much, except odd ones like squash. Only recently I learned I can be pretty healthy on fruits alone, which I will eat all day if I can and I guess I can!

Another reason I never attempted this until now is all the vegetarians I knew (though the most charming endearing people) looked like they were lacking something in the iron department. The food seems so boring, especially when you don't much like vegetables and you are a meat butter and milk person. Plus people think it is "new age" and weird and they can make your life miserable. But the number one reason I have not managed a vegetarian diet is my body screams for meat. I will almost attack a steak if I haven't had it for awhile.

I think this is a little bloodthirsty "wolf/bunny" gene kicking in. I try to subdue it.

Conscientiously if I think about eating meat, even chicken- it horrifies me.

So I don't think about it.

My ability to do this shows me that anyone is able to simply blot out the most horrifying atrocities and simply not think about them give them any weight or consideration. It is like a mental blanket. It explains how people can watch the news everyday and not be touched or affected by what they see.
If we could feel what everything feels we would be kinder. I think this will be a 2012 awakening type thing. We all know evolution takes leaps and this will be one more. A refining of what we are...moving from animals to...?

I think this because I feel myself needing to prepare for it. Heavy guilt over the meat eating and I feel like I could die at any day. I want to at least try to do what I always knew was right.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
Your thread title is arrogant and insulting. One of the many moral arguments for being vegan is broadly defined as utilitarianism.

Even though it sounds like the person who made this thread is ignorant towards vegetarians, I disagree with the title being arrogant and insulting. Seriously... People are complaining over a stupid title?
I found it funny actually. Either way great thread S&F.

I will eat anything that tastes good. If I was to eat a delicious steak, and then the chef were to inform me that I had just eaten human meat, I wouldn't really freak out, as long as it tasted good. My personal belief is that if you have the ability to overcome your prey, then you have the right to eat it. I don't believe in killing for sport. Hunting should be strictly for sustenance, and that includes selling the meat to someone else to eat.

The American Indians had a great philosophy. They thanked the animals for providing them with a meal.

reply to post by Schmidt1989

Being a vegetarian is a stupid choice.

it is a choice - why is it a stupid choice?

As we see in this thread, it's clearly evident that plants also feel pain, so the moral issue of not killing animals is obsolete.

clearly evident? :-)

even if it was - clearly evident - how does the evident pain of plants make the moral issues concerning the killing of animals obsolete?

you could go on just as easily after this to decide that the pesky moral issue concerning the killing of humans is also obsolete

plants feel pain (evidently) so - by Jove - go ahead and kill anything you want to kill? It's all the same thing?

The human body is designed to process meat and plants, look at your teeth.

The human body was also designed to bludgeon each other into pudding with anything we can lay our hands on. Most of us choose not to. It's a choice. The humans have that - we get to choose now.

I can't recall how many arguments i've seen from vegetarians saying how unhealthy meat is for you. But they're wrong.

wrong? how are they wrong?

If one chooses to eat only vegetables because they simply don't like the taste of meat, then that, to me, is the only viable excuse to become a vegetarian.

so it's you we go to for permission? I was wondering

And in any sense, these such cases should be extremely rare, as the human has been eating meat since before we evolved.

:-) evolved from what? into what? LOL!

It's in your mind and body to eat meat, naturally.

it's in my mind not to eat meat - am I not as evolved as you - perhaps?

Of course not. I don't hunt, I don't fish, I don't buy fur nor leather products.

whoa, whoa - whoa

you don't buy fur or leather products?

???

I love animals, I own 2 dogs and a bird. And i'll always own a dog and hopefully a cat in the future when i'm out of school. I sponsor a tiger down in florida that was rescued from a circus. I considered zoology as a profession. But i'll eat steak and wings till the day I die.

:-)

I'm betting you don't - you little rationalizer you