"Alternative Substances Forum" -- Conspiracy issues related to drugs, but NOT recreational/persona

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
IMPORTANT!

Our strict rules against the discussion of personal recreational use of drugs -- including naturally-occuring mind-altering substances -- is still in place. Any member discussing, promoting, or otherwise alluding to personal recreational use of drugs in this forum will be immediately banned from ATS without warning.

Why is this censorship necessary? Why restrict freedom of speech on a topic relevant to so many people regardless of race or social status?!?

Also, could you tell us if this includes the discussion of the use of drugs like marihuana, MDMA, mescaline or '___' from a therapeutic point of view? Some researchers have suggested that these illegalised drugs have strong therapeutic benefits. For example, marihuana is suggested for relieving pain, psychedelics (like meschaline or '___') are suggested as antipsychotics or anti-depressants and empathogenics (like MDMA) are also suggested as anti-depressants as well as a means to help autistic people understand empathy. Scientific arguments exist for these suggestions. Are such discussions allowed or not and on what grounds do you make your judgement?

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


Its the RULES put in place by the owners of THIS SITE.

Obey the den mother and you won't get a bear slapping your hiking face.

Its good advice.

Or do you "not" look at the "rules" put in place by the owners of houses you visit?

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

Why is this censorship necessary? Why restrict freedom of speech on a topic relevant to so many people regardless of race or social status?!?

And here we go again...

someone who can't possibly understand some simple guidelines want's to push it to the point that the administration of the site will be forced to once again shut down the discussion altogether.

My advice to you, if you can't understand what can and what should not be said in this forum, please by all means stay away from this forum.

For most of us the rule is pretty straightforward to comprehend, if you find difficulty with it please, don't ruin the forum for everyone because of your lack of reading comprehension ability or insane need to push the envelope of decency and decorum.

Or to put it simply, please don't tell us your personal stoner stories.

reply to post by whatukno

Would you say it to a cop or judge? If the answer is no, then you probably won't want to say it in this forum either.

I understand where you're coming from with this line of thinking, but then again, would you say to such people, "You sir, have made a career out of being the lackey of an increasingly fascist state."? Not if you value your freedom, eh?
Yet we can discuss that kind of thing on ATS. In fact, much more. There are threads on here which are openly & even proudly seditious, which is actually a crime.
What I'm asking for, SO, is confirmation that 'alluding to' or 'advocacy' will not be invoked to ban simply because a post does not condemn recreational use, or only condones medical use, or where the type of use is actually irrelevant to the point being made.

reply to post by Bunken Drum

You sir, have made a career out of being the lackey of an increasingly fascist state.

I in fact could say that to a cop or a judge. although I would opt to add the nifty phrase "In my opinion" to the beginning. Thus making it a expression of opinion rather than a statement of fact.

But as far as the rest of it went. Please, try not to ruin what can be a great discussion for everyone because you wish to post your own personal sorted tales of excess.

Originally posted by Mr Mask
Or do you "not" look at the "rules" put in place by the owners of houses you visit?

This site claims to offer space for discussion on alternative topics, yet they censor pretty much every topic of genuine interest an importance. Not only does that make no sense whatsoever, it is deceptive towards those who seek genuine enlightenment and keeps them thinking inside the box.

Originally posted by whatukno
someone who can't possibly understand some simple guidelines want's to push it to the point that the administration of the site will be forced to once again shut down the discussion altogether.

Why? It makes no sense for a forum on "alternative topics" and "conspiracy" to censor the discussion on the use of marihuana, psychedelics or empathogenics from a therapautic point of view.

Originally posted by whatukno
My advice to you, if you can't understand what can and what should not be said in this forum, please by all means stay away from this forum.

This sounds like Marxist totalitarianism: "if you won't agree with us, please shut up." How does such an attitude match the purpose of this forum?

Originally posted by whatukno
if you find difficulty with it please, don't ruin the forum for everyone because of your lack of reading comprehension ability or insane need to push the envelope of decency and decorum.

This forum would only be enriched by eliminating this silly censorship and allowing free debate on substance use.

Originally posted by whatukno
Or to put it simply, please don't tell us your personal stoner stories.

There are three kinds of drug users : stoners, psychonauts and patients. Stoners use drugs in an attempt to escape reality. Psychonauts use drugs in an attempt to better understand reality. Patients use drugs for therapeutic purposes. Although the first group is probably the vast majority, this doesn't change the fact that there are different ways and reasons to use drugs.

I'm not a stoner but a psychonaut, just like many great thinkers in the past and present. Why should I not have the right to defend the psychonautic or therapeutic use of either chemical or natural substances on a website dealing with alternative medicine, conspiracy and sedition?!?

Who are the lead moderators for this section of the forum? I am enquiring as I would like to reply to a thread (it's already written and saved on my hard drive), but unsure as to whether it is suitable. It obviously does not contain any references to personal use but amongst other things it does have a personal observation of somebody else I know, would this be acceptable?

I can gladly U2U the intended post to a moderator. I would assume the post fits well within the rules but also wary (maybe paranoid ) of losing my beloved ATS membership so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by Goathief]

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
This site claims to offer space for discussion on alternative topics, yet they censor pretty much every topic of genuine interest an importance. Not only does that make no sense whatsoever, it is deceptive towards those who seek genuine enlightenment and keeps them thinking inside the box.

It is the owners site, they can do what they want with it. If they forbade the use of the word "Spam" the only thing you could really do about it is start up your own site dedicated to the specific use of the word "Spam" as much as possible.

For many of us, the simple rules the owners have provided aren't a hindrance at all.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
Why? It makes no sense for a forum on "alternative topics" and "conspiracy" to censor the discussion on the use of marihuana, psychedelics or empathogenics from a therapautic point of view.

Makes perfect sense as far as a successful business model goes, the owners here don't want this place to devolve into 4chan.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
This sounds like Marxist totalitarianism: "if you won't agree with us, please shut up." How does such an attitude match the purpose of this forum?

Or perhaps saying it like this, please don't ruin this for the rest of us because you have personal issues.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
This forum would only be enriched by eliminating this silly censorship and allowing free debate on substance use.

Free debate is one thing, swapping drug stories is another, you know, self incrimination right? Maybe, just maybe, they don't want you to be blathering on about your own personal drug habits online so that you can be just a tad bit more secure.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
There are three kinds of drug users : stoners, psychonauts and patients. Stoners use drugs in an attempt to escape reality. Psychonauts use drugs in an attempt to better understand reality. Patients use drugs for therapeutic purposes. Although the first group is probably the vast majority, this doesn't change the fact that there are different ways and reasons to use drugs.

I'm not a stoner but a psychonaut, just like many great thinkers in the past and present. Why should I not have the right to defend the psychonautic or therapeutic use of either chemical or natural substances on a website dealing with alternative medicine, conspiracy and sedition?!?

See, this is what they don't want you to be talking about. The reason is that it just screams to people that might want to put you in jail that you might just be doing something you shouldn't.

Again, yes this is an important discussion topic, please be mindful of the small amount of rules they want you to go by so that the topic can be discussed and everyone can join into that discussion. I don't see what is so hard about that.

But no, this is going to degenerate into an argument about how your precious freedom of speech is being violated. (a freedom that does not actually exist in a private website.) And so, you will get angry, and decide it's better to destroy the discussion for everyone rather than comply with what is actually pretty straightforward guidelines set in place by people who set up the site and own the site and maintain the site all for free and all for your enjoyment.

reply to post by Goathief


You can U2U it to any Super Moderator and they can see whether or not it's acceptable. Super moderators have jurisdiction over the entire site not just one forum.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Goathief

 

You can U2U it to any Super Moderator and they can see whether or not it's acceptable. Super moderators have jurisdiction over the entire site not just one forum.

Thanks but I've also noticed that different moderators have different opinions. For example, one breaking news article I posted was removed by a moderator and subsequently reposted after a quick U2U session. A different moderator then gave me applause for the same posting so I hope that highlights my concern.

Perhaps a dedicated "Alternative Substances" forum leader as we have on other sections would help plus crackdown on blatant infringements of rules (which I have sadly seen a few times already)?

*EDIT TO ADD*
I can see this forum being closed due to the amount of people who cannot discuss the subject without resorting to "hey dude u should try this hurhurhur" replies. I've counted about 4 in one thread alone (also reported).



[edit on 30-11-2009 by Goathief]

reply to post by Goathief


I am sure they will assign some poor overworked under appreciated mod the thankless task of overseeing this forum.

Until then, might I suggest Mirthful Me as the Super Moderator you send your query to? I understand that he is quite fair and open minded.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Goathief

 

I am sure they will assign some poor overworked under appreciated mod the thankless task of overseeing this forum.

Until then, might I suggest Mirthful Me as the Super Moderator you send your query to? I understand that he is quite fair.

It's sorted (or should be). Much appreciated.



[edit on 30-11-2009 by Goathief]

Great move by the management.

They do say you can't please all of the people all of the time, but this comes a pretty close second.

For those moaning about the restrictions in place within this new forum, is it not better than the alternative we were facing before this new move?

Another thing to consider, and please correct me if i'm wrong here, but many of our members are from the UK, where possession of most drugs that we are talking about is still not legal. Decriminalised in some cases, but still not entirely legal. Not sure if it's the same there in the US?

Therefore, wouldn't discussion of such topics go against the ATS T's & C's?

So i think it's fine as it is. At least people have somewhere to discuss the subject now, and more so the conspiracy side of it.

Thanks.

CX.

[edit on 30/11/09 by CX]

Originally posted by whatukno
It is the owners site, they can do what they want with it. If they forbade the use of the word "Spam" the only thing you could really do about it is start up your own site dedicated to the specific use of the word "Spam" as much as possible.

I understand that every site owner has the right to decide to censor certain topic, however censoring topics on topics like history, anthropology or narcotics does not seem to match the purpose of this site and is frustrating for those who are looking for genuine enlightenment.

Originally posted by whatukno
For many of us, the simple rules the owners have provided aren't a hindrance at all.

That's because most of you still think inside the box.

Originally posted by whatukno
Makes perfect sense as far as a successful business model goes, the owners here don't want this place to devolve into 4chan.

It is perfectly possible apply a strict behavioral code without censorship. You don't need censorship to prevent a forum from turning into a slum. In fact, the quality of topics would probably improve without censorship.

Originally posted by whatukno
Or perhaps saying it like this, please don't ruin this for the rest of us because you have personal issues.

I don't have personal issues. I have issues with the censorship applied by ATS and this censorship ruins the experience for many users including myself.

Originally posted by whatukno
Free debate is one thing, swapping drug stories is another, you know, self incrimination right?

If people are willing to speak freely on their use of narcotics, why shouldn't they be able to on a website dealing where topics like alternative medicine and conspiracy are common? Why shouldn't psychonauts be able to promote the therapeutic or psychonautic use of certain narcotics?

Originally posted by whatukno
Maybe, just maybe, they don't want you to be blathering on about your own personal drug habits online so that you can be just a tad bit more secure.

It's not a matter of being secure or not. It's important people get truthful information about narcotic substances. If is important people know both the pros and cons before making up their mind on whether or not to use certain substances or how to use certain substances risk-free. Censoring these topics is not only limiting for those seeking genuine enlightenment, it is also dangerous for those who like to experiment and don't have a clue what they're doing.

Originally posted by whatukno
See, this is what they don't want you to be talking about. The reason is that it just screams to people that might want to put you in jail that you might just be doing something you shouldn't.

Aren't my rights protected by the First Ammendment and the fact that I live in Europe?

Originally posted by whatukno
Again, yes this is an important discussion topic, please be mindful of the small amount of rules they want you to go by so that the topic can be discussed and everyone can join into that discussion. I don't see what is so hard about that.

By censoring certain perfpective, people get a distorted view of reality. That's the problem.

Thank you OP !! ... This has been a long time coming and I am pleased to see that you do listen to the desires of your members. This is just fine to discuss, in principle, matters relating to drugs. There is no need to promote the use or tell stories about personal experiences ... the third person has always been a good voice to speak through

S&F

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

Aren't my rights protected by the First Ammendment and the fact that I live in Europe?

Well, no, living in Europe means that you have no First Amendment rights at all, you have whatever form of free speech rights whatever country you live in has. Funny thing about American laws, they only apply to Americans.

But I see you probably would rather that no one be able to discuss these issues at all, rather than slightly limiting your scope of discussing these issues. For all of us that will be effected once they decide that thanks to people like you that can't leave well enough alone and want to whine and break whatever rules you find unfair please don't.

Some of us understand the rules as given, and accept them, and want to post in this new forum within the guidelines given. We would love to have this new opportunity not ruined by malcontents that refuse to let the rest of us be happy because of some imagined slight by the owners.

Hooray,

Tis a good day!

This action will certainly dispell some bad feeling about the place.

reply to post by Mr Mask


yawn

Originally posted by whatukno
Well, no, living in Europe means that you have no First Amendment rights at all, you have whatever form of free speech rights whatever country you live in has. Funny thing about American laws, they only apply to Americans.

The ATS server is located in the US. To my knowledge, US legislation applies to any speech expressed on this website.

Originally posted by whatukno
But I see you probably would rather that no one be able to discuss these issues at all, rather than slightly limiting your scope of discussing these issues. For all of us that will be effected once they decide that thanks to people like you that can't leave well enough alone and want to whine and break whatever rules you find unfair please don't.

If rules are unjust, it is only normal people want to break them. Considering the scope of this forum, the censorship of topics on history, anthropology and narcotics is in contradiction with that scope. Also, it's pretty totalitarian.

Originally posted by whatukno
Some of us understand the rules as given, and accept them, and want to post in this new forum within the guidelines given.

I don't see the point of contributing much of my spare time to a forum that forces people to think outside of the box and censors or bans anyone who dares to think beyond, especially when that forum is supposed to be decidated to alternative topics like alternative medicine and conspiracy.

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

The ATS server is located in the US. To my knowledge, US legislation applies to any speech expressed on this website.

As a private entity, ATS reserves the right to deny service for any reason whatsoever, they can limit what can and cannot be said on their servers. If you don't like that, you don't have to post. It's pretty simple. Most of us like it here, and like the way this place is a great place to post, there are however a few people that no matter what the administration does, finds some fault. Frankly it's the issue with the individual, not the site itself.

If rules are unjust, it is only normal people want to break them. Considering the scope of this forum, the censorship of topics on history, anthropology and narcotics is in contradiction with that scope. Also, it's pretty totalitarian.

Again, you don't have to post here, if it's that totalitarian, then by all means post somewhere else, you aren't required to post here at all.

I don't see the point of contributing much of my spare time to a forum that forces people to think outside of the box and censors or bans anyone who dares to think beyond, especially when that forum is supposed to be decidated to alternative topics like alternative medicine and conspiracy.

There are plenty of other sites on the internet, I am sure you can find one that suits your needs. If ATS isn't that place then maybe you would feel better somewhere else. As for me and many others, ATS is a great place, I have never felt that I was Censored at all. If you feel you are, that isn't the site owners problem, it's yours.