Let's declare WAR! Economic War on China

reply to post by HotSauce

We do not need China to counter the Russians because we could easily defeat them in war.

I take it that you're not familiar with the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction then?
It'll never happen, because there's just no money in MAD[/B]NESS!

reply to post by Bunken Drum


I do know about MAD, but if the USA and Russia kill everybody on the planet then none of this stuff is even going to mattter. If we have a conventional war we would wear them out.

reply to post by HotSauce


What do you mean by 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities? In the end, it's still to ourselves right?

reply to post by stevegmu Yes but Steve, T-bills are not the only source of American debt. Every US$ is a promise to pay the bearer. How many trillions are there in circulation outside the USA?
Currently, they are useful reserves as they buy oil, but, whether you believe in AGW or not, whether you believe in abiogenetic oil refilling wells eventually or not, the fact is that oil continues to get more expensive to extract right now & technologies to reduce dependence on it are being developed. What will happen to those US$s when they're no longer of such use?
There's only 1 place for them to go: the USA, like chickens coming home to roost. If the USA hasn't got anything more to sell for them, the only result can be massive inflation.
Does anyone see any signs that Corporate America plans on changing its strategy of investing overseas & recreating domestic industry?
Hey, perhaps Hollywood can absorb those US$s selling junk media ??

Sorry to be a bother. I am trying to understand this, and I am reciting other thoughts I have read in the past. If you understand this, please make it simple and do not post links. Explain it to me here and for others. I am not a business person, like many others here. Explain to me how we aren't screwing ourselves over and how. I will return the favor if you want to talk science anytime

How can we own our own debt? So we owe money to essentially others in the country? Would this be the supposed powers that be? The ones with the resources to lend that amount of money? (I am just reciting crap here...no harm man...just words)

Okay, even if we ignore the internal debt, there is still al ot of external debt owed. We owe a lot to others. It is fine to say we owe most of it here, but when the debt gets as big as it is, even a portion of that owed to others is bad.

Who do we pay first? The internal or external. Ignoring internal debt, how do we pay the external (which really matters) when we can't pay off internal matters? What if the internal lenders are international? What if the interest is so high (or low enough but debt high enough) we never get out?

The internal lenders are not necessarily completely internal. International bankers can screw us. They can sell our debt without permission can't they?

What are the terms of the loans this country takes? I've never seen them. What could be the implications of the loans/terms when we can't pay off our internal debt or interest, let alone debts to other countries?

These are common questions, and common misconceptions/concerns. I think this deserves its own thread if people are willing to really talk about it, and explain....just a thought....

reply to post by Bunken Drum


US currency in other countries really doesn't cause inflation, as long as it is spent off-shore. The US dollar is essentially the national currency of Panama, and hasn't led to US inflation in any way. Oil is more expensive now because the US dollar is weak, and the global daily basket price is set on US dollars.
Oil will always be king. It is only more difficult and expensive to extract because governments make it that way. We have no shortage of exports. China and India need our technology and natural resources

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by truthquest

 

So right now you go to Saudi Arabia and buy your oil? No you get it from wherever the Oil companies buy it. I am saying lets get more oil from our own country and quit giving our money to the Middle East. Most oil we buy now comes from Canada.

Anyone with an understanding of the economy understands that 100.00000% of our economic problem is OUR OWN DEBT. What will buying made in USA products do for bringing down our debt? Zero! So your war-crazy wars do nothing to solve anything, just like bush and Obama crazy wars! War this... war that... oh please you don't know what you are doing!

Debt is the problem and you do nothing to address the issue of debt so you do nothing to solve the problem with your war.

reply to post by HotSauce


But let's say that the money is coming from SS and pension, well, in truth, evolution never intended for us to live till 70, 80 anyway. It only wants us to live till reproductive age(if it wanted us to live forever, then there would have been no reason for it to evolve the telomere shortening instruction.) If one considers how many generations that pass by in one's lifetime, and each generation decides to have kids, then one can see how things can get out of control quickly.

Instead of relying on the government, people are going to have to save up everything for themselves, which is how it should have been in the first place.

Originally posted by HotSauce reply to post by Bunken Drum

 

I do know about MAD, but if the USA and Russia kill everybody on the planet then none of this stuff is even going to mattter. If we have a conventional war we would wear them out.

Now you must be joking! What, we'll have a nice gentleman's agreement not to use WMD will we? Of course! Why wouldn't the likely losers agree to that?
The problem here HotSauce, is that you're letting your patriotism do your thinking. Slayer had the right idea pages ago: the USA needs to make room at the table. Its not a case of doing so voluntarily, its a case of do it or else a lot of the rest of the world will open their own restaurant & leave you & Saudi Arabia to glare at each other over your chitlins, whilst the UK picks scraps from the floor.

Originally posted by j2000
You are absolutely wrong. Flat out in denial. By not making anything, the whole of the world will just sit back and pay us for our thoughts.

You want something or some labor not from here? Pay more for it!
Tax it, Tarrif it, Block it! Oil is a joke anyways, if we tell them to stick it, they are broke. Run your car on Water. If we had our manufactoring base still, when oil went sky high on us, we would have dumped oil.

The debt was created on a fantisy that we did not have to make anything. That thought was filed into our brains by the Elite that wanted profits and to take them offshore and not share it.

By allowing Clinton to do NAFTA, and then continueing with Bush to deregulate everything and make sure no tarrifs were on China and India, is what the American Citizens did wrong. That was the time to stand up and say NO!
All we could say is, "Look at all the Cheap Crap we can buy!"

There is only one way out of not being Third World, and or One World.
That is to work and make things again. Check out History, if you don't make, you don't eat.........

Oh please... the OP never said anything about actually going about creating things of value. The OP's solution was get his filthy hands all over MY MONEY and tell ME what I can and cannot buy.

Why don't you just admit it... your solution is also the same... get your hands all over MY money. Simple petty theft, mafia style. Anti-freedom. Just admit your solution is to take away my freedoms.

The OP is full of crap. Will he actually go out and start a factory? No, and neither will you. You guys are all talk. What you really want to do is get the government to put obstacles in the way of me buying things from China. As if you have the right to take my things from me?

People like me start companies. People who believe not in stealing from others as the solution to problems but actually creating something of value. I'm starting up a software company, so I LIKE the idea of selling thoughts for money. The future of labor is being paid for thoughts I have no doubt about it.

But in the meantime for people like you yeah you are right creating actual real things of value would be nice but again you guys are all talk and will never do it. You want life handed to you on a silver platter. And to get that platter you'll just go and steal it. You'll never create something of value because you've stated clear as day you want to simply rip off others to get your things of value.

I want something made in China and for you to make me pay more for it you are just being the mafia. Stealing is wrong. Did your parents ever teach you moral values? No, or they'd have taught you stealing is wrong but you don't care and that is why I'll never see eye to eye with you on this issue.

If you think NAFTA and free trade have anything to do with each other you know nothing about NAFTA. NAFTA is about government controlled trading... charging import & export taxes for literally thousands of different items. Its much like a troll under the bridge that charges you a tax to pass or he beats you senseless and possibly eats you if you don't pay the toll. If you really did hate NAFTA then you'd probably like the idea of free trade.

So again, 100.00000% of all our economic problems are due to excessive debts, and few of those loans at all had to do with buying overseas items. In fact most of them are HOME LOANS... maybe import lumber from CANDADA (not China) then have LOCAL USA construction workers build those homes. Yeah we are 800B in the hole with China now how about the other 80,000+ billion dollars (thats 80,000 x 1 BILLION+) in debts by Americans for other Americans?

[edit on 24-11-2009 by truthquest]

reply to post by stevegmuThe only reason US$s abroad dont cause inflation is because, currently, they stay abroad, because of OPEC. If your trying to say that the paradigm shift represented by the Information Age will not affect demand for oil & that the status quo can just keep on keeping on, then you are either willfully deluding yourself or trying to use this forum to bolster US consumer confidence.
"Atoms to Bits" remember?
As someone said earlier, the Chinese are jumping straight from 3rd to 1st world. As soon as European alternative energy vehicles become commercially viable (& they will, since big oil has nowhere near as much power here), will the Chinese sit on the €uros they're getting off us for cheap goods & continue to support the old paradigm that keeps their idiological foe dominant, or jump straight to the high tech solution? How about India?
I cant believe you cited Panama! Panama is the USA, they just dont get to vote...

reply to post by HotSauce


# you stupid yanks....

that will hit 10,000 probably in your life time

Originally posted by aspx
that will hit 10,000 probably in your life time

Thanks for the extra info. I guess I can bring up my other questions again now. How aren't we screwed? GDP versus debt is getting that bad. the people we own debt to are not necessarily just American bankers/an internal matter. How many internal banks are there anymore? Yes, yes plenty. How much debt is there really on our truly US-only banks? How many international banks do we owe this money on? It does matter, and I think it is an important question.

Another hallow appeal to "Joe Six pack." and his occasional patriotism,Sorry OP but the collapse of the dollar was bound to happen here we have been spending like crazy and this is the end result.This is the way all empires begin to falter it's the way of things we can go and declare economic warfare but,in the end it won't stop the inevitable.

[edit on 033030p://0326 by mike dangerously]

HS, you are playing right into the hands of our own deceitful government. The very government that's killing us. With every imaginable resources, biochemical, economical, social, phychological. Aspartame, fluoride, vaccines, H1N1, chemtrails, taxes, D vs R, plunging dollars, foreclosures, control of your healthcare and health and lifestyle.

Take care of those immediate threats right in front of you, please, wake the F*** up.

reply to post by HotSauce

You know I usualy agree with you,but I am going to have to disagree this time. IT is never good to have more money going out than coming in unless we were investing.

Great thread, BTW!

And I will agree with you about the money going out! But we have by far the strongest world economy by 2x (the Japanese are closest). For the US it is the overall balance, not just the Chinese, they are but a small part of the overall. How do you think we maintain this negative balance with China year after year? It's the overall and I'll admit that is very difficult to quantify exactly!

And yes, we do need the Chinese to balance out the Russians because we have a very small military presence in Asia and the Chinese are the world's 2nd largest military and they are our friends! By contrast, the Russians haven't been very friendly for a very long time!

hmm..... I AM NOT AMERICAN ,.OR CHINESE OR INDIAN..
so my opinion will be without any patriotic ego stuff ..

Economic War is not going to happen ... just accept it not gonna happen..
not even in 50 yrs in AMERICA..not possible..

America now is like a dying elephant(i know sound a little funny), it will die slowly and slowly......( and i have heard this from mannnny people)

PEACE

[edit on 24-11-2009 by saima]

reply to post by plumranch If you really think that China is a friend to the USA, then you have seriously underestimated the patience in their geopolitical strategy. Why do you think they lent you all that money? Why not buy up massive stocks of Mid Eastern oil as strategic reserves with it instead?
Clue: enough rope...
If they are so friendly, how come they're buying oil from Iran in €uros, threatening the dominance of the US$?

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Thing is...good and services produced in China and India are no longer that much cheaper, people. And soon they won't be cheaper at all...and I'm talking dollarwise, not qualitywise here.

That's right. As more and more of those cheap labor slaves all want the American way of life, a house in the burbs, at least two cars in the garage, a house filled with all the latest toys, half a cow in everyones freezer, it's going to cost us more for those unnecessary things in life (such as iPods and cell phones and cars and home entertainment systems). Makes me wonder though, can the Earth sustain that kind of lifestyle that everyone has seen and now wants? Them middle easterners were content to live in mud huts in the desert until they all got on the Internet and saw how Americans were living. Now everyone wants to live in a Dubai world, ha.

Oh man, you all see the problem here, right? This goes deeper than "buy American," we're now in direct competition with the rest of the world over very limited resources. Bad thing is, we're no longer in a good position to do battle over all of that, our dollar has been watered down and inflated, we have very little infrastructure now to produce much to compete with (everyone else will simply under-cut us unless we are willing to work for and live with less), and there is just too much debt now to contend with. If our personal finances were in the same condition of the federal government, we'd be looking to declare bankruptcy. Of course, if the US government does that, they would be shafting those nation it owes for a LOT of IOUs! We could get ourselves all nuked to death for scamming and ripping off the rest of the world with our funny money that's becoming worthless with each passing day.