Let's declare WAR! Economic War on China

reply to post by Jazzyguy


I think you misunderstand the OP... It is not about not paying them off.. of course we should pay our debts back. it is about becoming super competitive so we gain teh upper hand in the trade wars.

reply to post by HotSauce

This is economic war and we must take no prisoners. We should use every resource we have to win. We must drill for our own oil, dig up our other natural resources, and we should do it with haste and clean up the mess later. We are in a war for our very survival.

Balance of trade with China, 2009 is TOTAL = $47,029.4 Billion exports and $212,830.4 Billion imports. It isn't all bad. The excess dollars to China insure that those dollars support the Dollar as the world currency. They insure that the Chinese stay our allies and counter balance the Russians militarily.

The biggest thing the US needs right now from the Chinese is for them to float or increase the relative value of their yuan. This would put the US businesses in a better position in world competition. Unfortunately, we have a weak Administration now and that isn't likely to happen.

You need to realize, too, that if you are feeling some economic pressure at home or Nationally, you're not alone. The entire world is in a major recession and most nations are feeling the effects worse than the US. I keep saying this is just a bump in the road in the scheme of things, but I realize Americans don't take "bumps" easily!

[edit on 23/11/09 by plumranch]

reply to post by plumranch


You know I usualy agree with you,but I am going to have to disagree this time. IT is never good to have more money going out than coming in unless we were investing. We do not need China to counter the Russians because we could easily defeat them in war.

reply to post by HotSauce


No, what I meant is if you can compete with them, you won't have this trade imbalance issue in the first place.

And if you think in the beginning that it's not about the US competitiveness but about federal spending, you should focus more on your own federal government rather than about china.

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by HotSauce

 

Unfortunately, we have a weak Administration now and that isn't likely to happen.

Don't matter what administration you got, bush's, obama's, mccain's, the US just doesn't have a good leverage against china.

The only solution to anything is to have less kids. The more population one country has, then the more one should expect the GDP per capita to approach Third World status. Technically, the U.S GDP per capita should only be about 20,000, but because of her borrowing, the GDP per capita remains high.

According to David Pimentel, the maximum sustenable population for the U.S is 200 million. While I think that's still too much, you get the idea.

Now if you don't want your bloodline going extinct, then have one kid only. Make sure he/she gets a good education and studies something useful like renewable energy and technological stuff like laptops.

As far as the debt, as I noted before, the U.S have plenty of houses to spare. What I recommend is to offer those to the poorest people of China as payment for the debt. Generally, poor people tend to have A LOT more kids than rich ones. This would kill two birds with one stone(the Chinese population is expected to go down by 2030.)

Until we get the lowest and poorest segment of the world(that is if we continue to accept immigration) educated, we're just going to go in circles. One couple has 5 kids, each of those 5 kids then have 5 kids each, there's no resources that can serve them all.

reply to post by Jazzyguy


No I think it is both. We need to reign this tax and regulation crazy goverment of ours in and focus our people to make them be more competitiive and give them the tools and training to win.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by HotSauce]

Originally posted by HotSauce
We are under assaut, not by men with guns, ships, missles, planes, but rather men armed with financial tools.

What would we do if we were attacked by a huge military force that threatened our very existence? We would do like our Parents and Grandparets did in WW2. We would focus all of the nations resources on defeating the enemy.

This is how we must act in order to defend ourselves from the financial assault we face from the Chinese and OPEC. We must sacrifice as our forefathers have done in order to remain free.

We need to do whatever is necessary to win. If we must raise taxes then we should ALL be wiling to pay as long as it goes to pay off the debt and shore up our financial house. If we must take pay cuts in order to get more jobs in this country we must ALL take pay cuts, but those who would try to take advantage of that shall be executed for treason.

This is economic war and we must take no prisoners. We should use every resource we have to win. We must drill for our own oil, dig up our other natural resources, and we should do it with haste and clean up the mess later. We are in a war for our very survival.

We must focus our smartest minds on the next waves of technology but commit to only building those new products in the USA and to go after any company or nation that tries to copy our ideas.

We must win at any cost! If we must get nasty then lets get nasty. If our forefathers could die in the trenches or kill the enemy by any means necessary then we should be willing to do whatever we have to.

This is a rallying cry to fight for your freedom before it is handed over to the rest of the world.

I welcome ideas on ways we can win this economic war we have been in for years. We are loosing today, but how can we turn it around and come out on top?

We must become the economic powerhouse we once were and we must learn to live within our means as a nation and as individuals.

EDIT TO ADD: By economic war I do not mean bombs and guns. I mean we do everything in our power to out compete them.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by HotSauce]

As somebody involved in Business at the highest levels globally and someone based in China, I can tell you Money knows no borders or flags, a large portion of the factories in China are "American" if you want fight something fight the special interest system which has ruined your country. You have been dumbed down, placated and fooled with your eyes wide open. You pay for all those solders a missles made by private companies to do what ? Protect your Freedom ? utter BS .. Drives me mad that Americans cant see who the real enemy is.. its within ... its the people who have not been looking after its solders, its children, its old people, its sick. It really is that simple .. instead of spending 200 Million on a Dozen Missles why not buld a new Baby care Unit for low income families, Instead of providing security for some Warlord in the Middleeast at the cost of 100 Million why not build transitional centers for your returning "heros" solders who currently make up the largest section of homeless people in America. Americans are good decent people but presently they are acting like a bunch brainwashed morons ... China is not the Problem nor India ...the problem is the Politicians who are not making it easier for you buy a home, educate your children (sufficiently to world standards) get basic healthcare

You first. Stop shopping at walmart, and just about every other major store in the country.

I look for things that say made in the USA and I will buy them even if it cost more. Go into a major chain and try to find something that is still made here. I dare you.

Money. Will we give up some of our money to start supporting our fellow Americans again and our economy/culture? Will we always buy from China? Eventually China will raise their prices and get there crap together. What will we do then?

We buy almost everything from foreign countries. What do we give them in return? How do we support our foreign spending? We can't buy goods from them without giving something back in return. What is it? Are we selling our country out with every stop to walmart? It doesn't look good folks. It isn't a war on China. It is a war on anyone who buys products from outside the USA! It is a war on the lazy people in this country! We were a China at one point. We worked hard for almost nothing. This country did it. China will be next unless we realize it takes work to be number one! We are number one, so lets keep it up. Get off the couch, put down the beer, stop watching the game, and take responsibility for this country before it is gone. We are already essentially owned by china. They own our debt/economy. We can change it. It is an internal war here. Don't blame anyone else but ourselves.

There is very little industry left here. We are so screwed.

One has top wonder what would happen if the Chinese all had cars. We'd certainly know whether global warming is a hoax or not

reply to post by s373r3d


Last I checked, we are still #1-

Currently, the largest share of world industrial output is held by the United States (23.3 percent), followed by Japan (18.2 percent) and Germany (7.4 percent). China ranks fourth with 6.9 percent.

link

With the exception of Apple products, those who want quality goods still buy American. Those who want cheaply made disposable items buy Chinese. I'd rather pay more for a quality product that will last, than a cheap Chinese one. People are starting to realize this. I was chatting with an Allen Edmonds representative the other day, and she said shoe sales are through the roof, and they had to add shifts to keep up with demand. With the exception of electronics, it isn't hard to buy American, or at least N. American.

Yes yes, we are still supposedly number one, but what of our debt? How far in the hole are we? Who owns that debt?

I support buying American goods, but almost no one else does, and almost anything you can buy at the convenience store isn't made here. You have to actually work to find an American made good. It is nowhere near convenient to buy American goods anymore.

reply to post by s373r3d


Actually, we own most of the debt, not China, as most people think-

That’s right, the biggest holder of US government debt is actually inside the United States. The Federal Reserve system of banks and other US intragovernmental holdings account for a stunning $4.785 trillion in US Treasury debt. This is the most recent number available (March 2009), which is down from the all-time high of $4.806 trillion in December 2008. However, this does not account for additional Federal Reserve investments occuring in the summer of 2009.

link


Not sure anyone knows the exact amount. Obama has sure done his best to increase it, though.

So let me get this straight then...We have our own internal debt, owned/owed by us alone?

Why do we sell off our debt to other countries then? Where does international trade come into play? The government is responsible for the worst debt, yes, but where do we keep getting money?

I think a big amount was and still is coming from other countries. That is not going to show up as debt to others. It is going to show up as debt of the government.

You don't take a loan and say the lender is responsible. You say the borrower is responsible The US is responsible. They "own" the debt. Am I far off on this?

How can we owe money to ourselves? We got the money from somewhere to get us in this hole. It isn't all inflation. I don't believe that.

Where am I mislead on these ideas if I am truly wrong?

[edit on 23-11-2009 by s373r3d]

reply to post by s373r3d


Well part of it is we can take money from say Social Security that is supposed to be being saved for future liabilities, but instead of setting it aside we borrow it from our selves.. but we are stil going to owe that or we are going to have to get rid of SS.

reply to post by HotSauce

China is vast as well.

Together, the 48 contiguous [American] states and D.C. have an area of 3,119,884.69 square miles...
Its 2000 census population was 279,583,437...
Its population density was 94.484 inhabitants/sq mi

en.wikipedia.org...

At approximately 3.7 million sq mi, the People's Republic of China is the world's third or fourth largest country by total area...
Population
- 2009 estimate 1,345,751,000[5] (1st)
- Density
363.3/sq mi

en.wikipedia.org... These figures are for the whole People's Republic of China, excluding disputed territories. I couldn't be bothered to work out just the mainland. So yes, 0.6 mil sq mi larger, excluding inland water bodies, but 3.85 x more densely populated. Industrialising into planned city expansion to take advantage of infrastructure, not the haphazard growth of cities & infrastructure built to suit after the fact.

Europe is so socialised they can barely get out of bed long enough to work

Yet despite this alleged laziness, European farms are so productive that the EU has to pay farmers to produce less because we just couldn't sell the surplus without getting into a trade war with the USA & our bedridden engineers make vehicles on average just less than twice as efficient as US equivalents. You'll also find that despite having recently absorbed the impoverished Eastern Europe into the EU, we compare very favourably to the USA in quality of life, despite the figures' bias due to the fact that the USA has the highest disparity between the richest & the rest of any developed nation.
skeptically.org...

the Japanese have to ship in most raw materials etc

Japanese industrial cities are all by the sea & most raw materials are sourced abroad by the 1st world.

reply to post by s373r3d


No, I never said we own all the debt alone. Just most of it. If you look at the article, much of it is also owned by mutual funds and state and local governments.

We sell treasury bonds to raise money. People and countries buy them because we are a stable country, so they are a safe investment.
We aren't borrowing money in the traditional sense. We are selling treasury notes which earn a little interest over time. I t is no different than a bank selling bonds. Have you ever heard of a bank losing money be selling too many bonds?

There is no real money exchanging hands. It's all on paper.

Here's how they work-
link
link

But the state and local governments get their money from taxes right? So in the end, the debt is to ourselves. Only 2.6 trillion are the "real"(foreign) debt.

reply to post by np6888


Yes, most of the debt it to ourselves. All this talk of China owning all of our debt, or being able to call in the debt is nonsense and media-driven hype.

reply to post by np6888


Well not exactly like 10 or more states are virtualy bankrupt. Most states have underfunded pensions. The Federal goverment has another 100trillion in unfunded liabities like Medicare and Social Security.

If it was only 2.6trilion of foreign debt we woudn't even sweat that.