To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

I will glady apply the label 'HERO' to anyone willing to go out and take a bullet for my freedoms, for allowing me to live my life with my family as I am, regardless of the consequences to himself or his family.

Let me be the first to say, I am against the politics of this war. I will go so far as to say that those who send people off to die needlessley for a war should themselves and their children be placed on the front lines ahead of our troops. These wars going on are an appalling and disgusting parody of what it means to fight for peace and freedom.

But these soldiers, the men actually on the field, taking bullets for my and YOUR way of life, did not sign up for the politics, did not sign up to "make money off of oil" or ' to further the NWO plot' or whatever reason you believe the war to be on for; they signed up to protect you, your wife, your children, your parents, whatever the case may be.

I do not join the military, because I am not of their calibur; but people that are willing to take a bullet, or shrapnel, etc. for MY way of life, automatically get the title of Hero from me.

Again, to summarize, the war's going on now are all wrong, and those calling the shots are murderers and evil to the worst degree, but those dying or putting themselves in harms way for what they see as my betterment, are the embodiment of what makes human kind so great.

Originally posted by Lurch
I mean christ, even the French have won more wars in history than America and that's saying something.

You mean like FRENCH IndoChina?

White American's are basically just bastard step-children of European's anyway. You wouldn't even exist if it was not for European's. So please show some respect to your fathers.

Well thank god you can't get arrested for stupidity.

Edit: Also, anyone who thinks "the taliban" or "al qaeda" or "terrorists" could have somehow invaded America are deluded and brainwashed beyond belief. These jokers managed to carry out 2 terrorist attacks on American soil in 15 years ffs.

Apparently some cannot read...
When has anybody stated they would invade the US? Although I will give you some recognition about acknowledging that in fact there have been two attacks on US soil unlike some people around here.

(missiles, CIA, Bilderberg, NWO, Dick Cheney...)
No plane, its a hologram! No, its a missile! No, its a laser beam! No, its a bomb! No, wait its thermite or maybe termites!

Now, where did I put my my tin foil hat? Oh yeah - its in my underground bunker.

Also no veteran since WW2 has defended my freedoms in any way. If all the wars since 1945 were never fought, I'd still have the same number of freedoms than I do today, if not more.

Unless you have lived in the Antarctic you are sadly mistaken. If you live in Europe there are plenty of Veterans, Europeans as well as Americans who stood watch over Western Europe in the face of the USSR and Warsaw Pact countries.

Thank God there was not a shooting war.


[edit on 12-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by VelvetSplash


I would love to wonder who are those on the other side?

Going to tell me?

I for one fail to see what I do in ever day live, since I am one of the others are going to take over

You realy got to me with this one because every morning when I put on my uniform I put my arms out to one side and thrust up off the ground and fly through the air thinking God I'm awesome today I will save the world and take care of every persons problems in the country . Thank god they keep paying their unconstitutional taxes and know that deep down inside I wish I could storm trenches and watch my friends blow up into little tiny pieces . then when I get out I can home and work at MacDonalds and slowly kill every single person I sell by simply allowing them to ingest their own nations poisons and lies over and over and over again. The point of Us Serving isnt to serve the government its to serve the people at home WHom have the right to Rise up and cause Change at any given moment should they suddenly remember how many of them their are. If the people were to rise up and change the government in a positive way it would Change our military in a positive way and maybe We wouldn't sit in hospitals for years hoping that when we get out back into the world it will have all been worth it . But We can barley reflect our own ideals onto others without change. If you stopped for a minute and looked at the true beast which reaches at our youth you could snuff out the problem at the start . TURN OFF THE TV REMOVE THE MEDIA FROM THE AREA and Let humanity develop . I cant sit near a group of civilians and most gov personal either without hearing someone start to sound like a walking advertisement its all my new cell phone this and that new movie that and this came out and this is new and blah blah blah read a book. We have in jested our own love of material possessions so much that its in the American dna . if were up to me Id go camping permanently .. I think I may go do that when this contract it up . aint my firt languge either.

Soldiers are heroes in a sense that they defend us and our freedoms. However, the past two invasions of Middle Eastern countries do not count...

What freedom do they fight for? What do they even fight for besides trying to stay alive? Bombs dropped on Pakistanis, Iraqis having their homes invaded, civil war basically breaking out in Iraq because of our ignorant thought process to spread Democracy to a Muslim nation. ETC.

The two wars in the Middle East not only deceive our soldiers but degrade them. These men and women are not dying in vain, they are dying for greed.

As someone who served, I could really not care less what you or anyone else thinks about it.

I seriously doubt anyone I served with really care either. I'm not a hero, don't claim to be.

You should take your anger out on the politicians, they are the ones who make such a big deal about these things, not the people in the military. People in the military are mostly just regular people trying to make a living.

Not everything you see on TV is accurate.

I fully respect the OP for his brave opening post (given the dominating vocal minority of the crazy "I love guns and blowing s%$t up" Americans in this thread.)

The fact that many of you from over the pond have picked up on the OP's European locale and insulted him for it is extremely sad. On my forum you'd get hit so hard with the WARN stick you'd see stars and stripes when you slept....wait a minute - perhaps you do?

Secondly I fully support the OP's second post, that is a balanced and completely unabashed non-apology. I respect a person that is willing to stand right behind their beliefs, even in the face of ignorant & bigoted fury.

Moderators, I hope this thread gains some serious attention, with certain members being warned for bad-conduct, and certain posts modified / deleted. Because to be quite frank, I'm appalled at the near nationalistic racism being displayed here, on a topic that didn't warrant or suggest anything close to that.

This thread does act as a magnet for people to go onto my FOE list however, which is helpful!

The Para.

reply to post by Ulala


I served and you're right. I'm not a hero. But I am an honest man, and I did something to give back to the country that has given me so much.

I'm a little offended though. Your post sounded more like an indictment than a simple expression of opinion. Don't put us all down with broad strokes of the brush. We may not deserve glory... but we do deserve a little respect.

reply to post by Angus123


Angus, how much respect do you think you - as a fellow that has served in the military - is worth? More than a police officer? Fireman? Paramedic?

They all get shot at almost every month, we don't see them demanding respect in this way? Althought I strongly think they should be given it.

(Before you suplex me, I actually think members of the armed forces should be given the respect anyone in a serious job deserves. But I'm not going to bow and scrape )

The Para.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Parallex
reply to post by Angus123

 

Angus, how much respect do you think you - as a fellow that has served in the military - is worth? More than a police officer? Fireman? Paramedic?

They all get shot at almost every month, we don't see them demanding respect in this way? Althought I strongly think they should be given it.

(Before you suplex me, I actually think members of the armed forces should be given the respect anyone in a serious job deserves. But I'm not going to bow and scrape

)

The Para.

They do deserve our respect. And nobody expects any bowing and scraping. But a harsh post with negative connotations on Veteran's Day isn't very respectful.

Agreed?

reply to post by Angus123


I like your attitude Angus. But I'm not able to meet you halfway there.

I think his post had 'spikes' attached for the unwary to snag themselves on. If someone has hang-ups about this subject, they will get caught in the snare. I think the OP had every right to say what he said, even on that very day. The OP certainly paid tribute to the heroes of the past, who deserve to be remembered (for being killed in the name of greed and bigotry) yet they still retained their honour and valour. That showed their caliber.

Todays military is a different beast, people have so much more information and education available to them - how a modern, intelligent military force can be duped into illegal and unjust wars by their civilian 'leaders' is beyond me. If they're marching with their eyes open that is....

Ever seen the film Valkyrie?

The Para.

reply to post by Parallex


Oh man we could talk about willful ignorance of the populace all night, lol. Not just soldiers. But the truth is a lot of young soldiers don't know about what their civilian leaders are doing. Doesn't make them bad people. The vast majority in fact are good men and women that are willing to stand up for their country.

And you're 100% right... the OP has every right to say what he said. And I didn't jump on him with both feet for just that reason. I disagreed with his overall gist... and I expressed that in what I thought was a more measured fashion than most.

A measured an appropriate response to the situation is expected of all good soldiers after all.

You're a credit to your kinsmen Angus.

The argument has to be raised however - and it's an old doozy that you hinted at - when does ignorance become a defence? (Just following orders, I didn't know that had happened yadda yadda)

Chicken and egg, we'll be here all week at this rate

I suppose I ought to go to sleep. It's 2AM here.

The Para.

reply to post by Parallex


I hope we debate again... sleep well.

Originally posted by Oxygen56
I haven't read the whole thread, so I am only replying to the OP. I have personally known people that got into the military to do one thing, learn to use guns and kill people. (their own words) I have also heard stories from people in the military about horrible things done to innocent families in Viet Nam etc. I have also personally known real hero's that have fought and served for their country.

So.. you can get mad at the OP for using 11/11 to post his message and or get mad for the message in general and defend every person that served in the military or take every case as an individual. A few bad apples will not always rot the cart but being in the military doesn't make you an instant hero. As I said earlier, some are in the right reasons and some are not. I have known both. I also have family in the military. I do agree with the OP in general.


And to those who has served for the right reasons I salute you. Those in for the wrong reasons and following orders when you know in your heart it is dead wrong... well you have to deal with that someday yourself.

Peace.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Oxygen56]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Oxygen56]

I agree, 100%.

Originally posted by Lurch
Our American readers are aware that the world did exist prior to World War's 1 and 2 right? You are aware that European's were fighting (and winning) wars and generally kicking ass centuries before America even existed right? The 2 Wars in the last century were, in the great scheme of things and history of the world, fck all. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan are just a pimple on the arse of human history - barely even qualify as "wars" really. I mean christ, even the French have won more wars in history than America and that's saying something.

White American's are basically just bastard step-children of European's anyway. You wouldn't even exist if it was not for European's. So please show some respect to your fathers.

Edit: Also, anyone who thinks "the taliban" or "al qaeda" or "terrorists" could have somehow invaded America are deluded and brainwashed beyond belief. These jokers managed to carry out 2 terrorist attacks on American soil in 15 years ffs. They are nowhere near a big enough threat to anyone to justify the subsequent invasions and slaughters in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also no veteran since WW2 has defended my freedoms in any way. If all the wars since 1945 were never fought, I'd still have the same number of freedoms than I do today, if not more.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Lurch]

Euros enslaved people. euros fought tribes without guns most of the time. America freed countries and helped bring an end to Euro enslavement of countries.

I hate morons like yourself.

Originally posted by Ulala
Nope, I don't think you're all heroes.

Nor do I think you all stand shoulder to shoulder with those who stormed the Normandy beaches, liberated the deathcamps or fought street by street through Berlin.

And I don't think it's right to venerate those volunteer soldiers and airmen who currently fight in unjust wars today ; in Iraq or Afghanistan. Those servicemen are pale shadows of the WW2 vets who fought and died for our real freedoms, real liberties and to protect our democracy. I don't say that lightly ... their deaths are in vain because they're not fighting to defend us from anything. What are they fighting for ? Really ? Does anyone really have half a clue now why our forces are over there ? Cos I don't.

The commercialisation of Veterans Day is disgusting. The coupons for Vets (Vets being defined as anyone who has ever worn a uniform in any capacity whatever), the memorabilia made in China ("$1 from each purchase donated to charity"), the Hallmark range of cards produced especially for the occasion, it's completely beyond parody. Glorying in slaughter "for a few bucks only".

I understand why folks are sensitive about negative posts in GradyPhilpott's thread. It's an insensitive thread in itself, it affords no dissent, you're either with us ... or ... with Hitler ? With the terrorists ? And it takes little account of others sensibilities. The US flag is proudly hoisted many times in that thread ; on this day never has flag waving been more inappropriate. Today is a day for no flags ... such is the scale of the catastrophic loss of human life in Europe and the Far East.

Too sensitive am I ? Don't think so.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Ulala]

Point taken but I really don't think you understand what it is to be part of the American military. As a soldier you are trained in the art of war and take a vow to protect both the Constitution and the American people. You are taught to respect the Chain-of-Command and, 9 times out of 10, you tend to form an intense form of comraderie with the rest of the guys in your unit. This is completely natural. You have to trust these guys implicitely, because if the s**t hits the fan you are all going to have to have each other's backs. For many soldiers involved in actual combat this link to their brothers is even more intense than the links to their families and wives.

But beyond the "group think" and "group identity" that military service, especially in war situations, tends to foster, there is also a need to be fully committed to the mission, whatever it is, in order to actually "keep your brother's back". If you are going to expect every soldier to question the ethicality of every mission that they are given then you are damanding that they hesitate to consider their orders before any given action. In times of combat hesitation can get a person you love dearly killed. Soldiers on the front line honestly don't have the option to question what whether what they are being told to do is actually legitimate or legal. Their reality is that their is an organized mass of "others' who are trying their best to kill them and they have to have faith that their quickest way out of the situation is to have faith in their superiors and get the job done.

So you see you're actually wrong when you say that those brave men and women are not all heroes, they really are., with few exceptions. The failure to question the ethics of any given conflict that our government chooses to sacrifice the lives of young Americans for is not the failure of our soldiers but of our citizenry. These wars over oil and opium are all being conducted in our name, even though they are only meant to benefit a few extremely wealthy individuals and corporations. It is we, the people, who are ultimately responsible for the wars that our totally corrupt politicians devise. We could shut this country down tomorrow if we wanted to.

Originally posted by Ulala
Nope, I don't think you're all heroes.

Nor do I think you all stand shoulder to shoulder with those who stormed the Normandy beaches, liberated the deathcamps or fought street by street through Berlin.

And I don't think it's right to venerate those volunteer soldiers and airmen who currently fight in unjust wars today ; in Iraq or Afghanistan. Those servicemen are pale shadows of the WW2 vets who fought and died for our real freedoms, real liberties and to protect our democracy. I don't say that lightly ... their deaths are in vain because they're not fighting to defend us from anything. What are they fighting for ? Really ? Does anyone really have half a clue now why our forces are over there ? Cos I don't.

The commercialisation of Veterans Day is disgusting. The coupons for Vets (Vets being defined as anyone who has ever worn a uniform in any capacity whatever), the memorabilia made in China ("$1 from each purchase donated to charity"), the Hallmark range of cards produced especially for the occasion, it's completely beyond parody. Glorying in slaughter "for a few bucks only".

I understand why folks are sensitive about negative posts in GradyPhilpott's thread. It's an insensitive thread in itself, it affords no dissent, you're either with us ... or ... with Hitler ? With the terrorists ? And it takes little account of others sensibilities. The US flag is proudly hoisted many times in that thread ; on this day never has flag waving been more inappropriate. Today is a day for no flags ... such is the scale of the catastrophic loss of human life in Europe and the Far East.

Too sensitive am I ? Don't think so.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Ulala]

One more ungrateful fool who could not spew this without being protected by those he spurns. Stalin had useful fools too, they were some of the first to Siberia.

Ultimately we are the ones who go along with all of the illigitimate wars and military shennaigans that our leaders contrive. To contend that those folks who are brave enough to put their lives on the line for our sakes are completely responsible for determining whether or not a military action on the part of this country is valid and respectable while exonerating we, the voting public, from any responsibility for the actions of our representatives is, to my mind, a completely bankrupt notion that can only arise out ignorance of the realities of military service and, more imoprtantly, a need to abdicate their own responsibilty for ensuring that only men and women of integrity are elected into high office, and to expediantly reject any representative that clearly violates our collective trust.

In short, if you're a soldier and somebody's shooting at you, then you're gonna shoot back. It doesn't matter whether or not your douchebag government sent you into harm's way to occupy a defenseless country so that their rich pals could control that country's oil reserves, your life is in danger and you're going to fight to preserve it. The move to stop the bull# needs to happen here as a movement of like-minded free citizens in the greatest country on earth to keep our run-amok government in check.