To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Nope, I don't think you're all heroes.

Nor do I think you all stand shoulder to shoulder with those who stormed the Normandy beaches, liberated the deathcamps or fought street by street through Berlin.

And I don't think it's right to venerate those volunteer soldiers and airmen who currently fight in unjust wars today ; in Iraq or Afghanistan. Those servicemen are pale shadows of the WW2 vets who fought and died for our real freedoms, real liberties and to protect our democracy. I don't say that lightly ... their deaths are in vain because they're not fighting to defend us from anything. What are they fighting for ? Really ? Does anyone really have half a clue now why our forces are over there ? Cos I don't.

The commercialisation of Veterans Day is disgusting. The coupons for Vets (Vets being defined as anyone who has ever worn a uniform in any capacity whatever), the memorabilia made in China ("$1 from each purchase donated to charity"), the Hallmark range of cards produced especially for the occasion, it's completely beyond parody. Glorying in slaughter "for a few bucks only".

I understand why folks are sensitive about negative posts in GradyPhilpott's thread. It's an insensitive thread in itself, it affords no dissent, you're either with us ... or ... with Hitler ? With the terrorists ? And it takes little account of others sensibilities. The US flag is proudly hoisted many times in that thread ; on this day never has flag waving been more inappropriate. Today is a day for no flags ... such is the scale of the catastrophic loss of human life in Europe and the Far East.

Too sensitive am I ? Don't think so.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Ulala]

I don't think you're all heroes.

Might surprise you, but many of us don't think about ourselves as heroes either.

Just ordinary Americans volunteering to do a job for the country that we love.

Nor do I think you all stand shoulder to shoulder with those who stormed the Normandy beaches, liberated the deathcamps or fought street by street through Berlin.

Many of us wouldn't even dare try to compare ourselves to them.

their deaths are in vain because they're not fighting to defend us from anything.

I figure an Iraqi or an Afghan would be in better position to tell us if we are helping them or not. I think you and I both know that there is no way for any country to defend itself from terrorism 100%. War or no war.

I understand why folks are sensitive about negative posts in GradyPhilpott's thread. It's an insensitive thread in itself, it affords no dissent, you're either with us ... or ... with Hitler ? With the terrorists ? And it takes little account of others sensibilities

Did everybody on that thread object to dissenting posts or are you just assuming they did?

Personally, I say go for it. Want to thank a veteran-cool. Want to give reasons why their shouldn't be be a veteran day-cool.

I say you have that right either way. I will leave up to your determination as to why such right exist.

What are they fighting for ? Really ? Does anyone really have half a clue now why our forces are over there ? Cos I don't.

This is debatable and depending on you ask, you may get different reasons. But no matter what the reason our forces are over there, it still doesn't change the facts that are troops are in harms way.

Therefore, we should keep them in our hearts and prayers on this Veteran Day and everyday. IMO, it's the least we could do.

reply to post by Ulala


You should thank a Veteran and those currently in service that you even have a right to post such a thing. If you did this in Sadaam's Iraq they probably would have cooked you and ate you for dinner.

reply to post by Ulala


I think that you could have picked another day to say this, I respect your right to have an opinion. You may be right in some regards.

I guess there are a few bad apples among the many millions of good apples.

That is what it is to be human.

I just think, on 11/11, you could have shown a bit more respect, even just for the ones that are heroes.

I think anyone who joins the military, is more of hero than I, and for that (regardless of Politics, the Legality of War, my opinions) I think they deserve a little respect, it's only one day a year.

But as I said, everyone has their opinion mate.

Peace kiwifoot.

Every time there's a holiday there has to be one troll who has to start a thread against it.

obvious troll is obvious

reply to post by Doc Tesla


Well, Doc, you're always going to run into one crybaby that's all bent out of shape because the world isn't focusing on their "trials and tribulations".

Vets get one lousy day a year, and you're always going to get that 10% that tries to s**t on the parade.

Now I think that everyone has a right to their opinion, believe me, I voiced mine about Obama and got slaughtered for it by those who love him.
With that said, it doesnt mean I have to agree with it, since it is indeed, an opinion.

I believe you are looking at it all wrong. You CANNOT lump the military service members, whom sign their life to protect the constitution and the rights of ALL Americans in the same category as those politicians whom SEND these men to do the jobs that they will not, or cannot do.
The Military doesnt do what it does for the politicians, they do it for you, for me, and especially for their families. It gives them a sense of honor in knowing that there is more important things going on in this world besides themselves. The military is FULL of UNSELFISH people. Can we say that about our politicians? Of course we cant.

Many of these men and women are direct disendents of those older warriors of which you speak of, and many of them look to them for something to admire. So to say that those in our armed forces today are nothing to be compared to with past generations, is a slap in the face to those generations before us. They had honor in everything that they did, and so do the warriors of today, regardless of politics. So while you sit here and disgrace them by your unfounded remarks, just remember that they are over there risking their lives for something that is more important than themselves, YOU and your freedoms, and the freedoms of your childrens children, just like those who did the same before them.

This must have been very hard to write from the fetal position. Cowards always sound the same. They always have and they always will.

Subjective Truth

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Subjective Truth]

Mate, most if any of the vets I know don't consider themselves heroes. That goes for today and the vets from WW2, Korea, the Balkans. They consider them selves people who served, nothing more.

I have family who landed on Normandy. They also landed at Sicily before that. They did heroic things and saved many friends lives because of this and were decorated for it.

You know what they consider themselves?

Lucky.

Cause they lived and many of their companions didn't.

I have family who have served over the last five generations of my family.

Know how many consider themselves heroes?

None.

Not one.

They do however consider themselves people who were/are willingly to give up their life for their country.

Not one of my family who is currently serving would imagine to even consider themselves in the same breathe as our relatives who fought in WW2.

My relatives consider them equals though.

I don't care what you think of the wars, I personally am against them, the men and women who decide( because like you said, they are volunteers today) to put themselves in harms way in service to their country deserve respect.


[edit on 11-11-2009 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by Ulala


I will tell you this much.

I never wanted to join the military.

I am glad, others have and yes, we as a nation depend on the military.

Not just in wars, but to prevent wars and care for the nation as a whole.

I think when national guard or even regular military assists after disasters is wonder and right.

They fight in wars for the US that we want to fight, yet most of us choose not to do the actual fighting.

Last point, A member of my Mustang club came back after 2 years of service in Afghanistan.
I cannot imagine what he has gone through, but I know I sure bought him a beer when he got back.

Don't get me wrong, some do wrong and that is just wrong, wrong is wrong no matter what you wear, but I believe these are the very few compared to the size of the military.

I commend those who wear the uniform... especially since I choose not to wear one.

To all the armed forces men and women active and retired from the military,


Good life one and all you all.

And for those who made the ultimate sacrifice, god bless you, each and everyone.
(to their families, you have sacrificed a member of your family, the highest form of sacrifice, god bless you all)


BTW, we are entitled to our own opinion about everything and are free to speak/write it.
This includes the OP.

All I ask is this, please remember it is because of these brave men and women, we can all speak out mind freely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 11/11/2009 by mrmonsoon]

reply to post by Ulala


Well,
From someone who served for eight years in the infantry and did see the gulf war, some rough peacekeeping duty, some of the second gulf war and a few years of being rocketed, shelled and shot at by insurgents while I worked as an electrician trying to get people basic living essentials......big whoop.

We don't think we're heroes either.

The vets don't call themselves heroes. They just do a job. Others choose to reserve one day a year to recognize that. It's their choice.

Go find another parade to piss on spoilsport.

You're giving the adults a headache.

I guess putting your life on the line and fighting under your countries flag doesnt equate to anything these days huh Op?

These guys dont even think of themselves as heroes, and most of them are just following orders from people high up in the American military...so its a bit demeaning to put words into their mouths assuming that they are self proclaimed heroes.

if the OP wants to go on the rant about military in these two new wars compared to the other wars better go searching for the history. the history not in the books.

I remember doing some research a while back and it had come to a conclusion that WW2 and the rest to follow were all "planned." I remember they touched on WW1 but I forgot the conclusion on that one.

you may not remember those ones because they were in history books that you read from the indoctrinate school systems.

I put on the uniform for 4 years, I did my time in Iraq, and got out. I did not agree with what we were doing there. nor the mentality of the "army" where things are outdated and done a certain way and when you question it, they fall back on the "its the army way." hooah. ?? I got out while I can. they make it sometimes comfortable to never get out.

Lots of military people that join are people that "think or feel" they are doing the right thing. some join for an easy life.

you cannot sum up ALL military by what you know or think of them.

To me it was like a "small" US community when in uniform. some smart, some mean, some nice, and so on and so forth.

the military just keeps you extra busy training. Hard to really think on your own and do what you like besides what you know.

the military should be teaching how to think for yourselves and the constitution to be a "REAL" military.

they system is broke. once we can fix the system then we can fix the rest, but until then, the consensus will be that once you put on that uniform, some will treat you with respect and others will spit on you.

why veterans day? what about columbus day? or other holidays?

what the military USE to mean, is not what it is now, but the feelings of what it use to be are still there.

There is a time and place for everything and today is not the time for disrespecting men and women who have served, fought and died for whatever the cause...
(OP) has shown himself to have poor taste (at the least) and/or to be an attention-seeker (at the worst) and *I* will take this into account when reading posts, going forward.


I will speak for my greatuncle and both of my grandfathers when I say that none wanted to go to war (WW2) and for one, again in (Korea) and I will be forever thankful that they came home. My dad did not want to go to war (Vietnam.)
But - they were faced with it and they did their part...

Peace and respect to veterans of past and to the men/women serving today, wherever in the world they may be...


[edit on 12-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

only veterans know who the heros are now, and were in the past. it is extreme arrogance for any civilian, to try and say who is and who isn't. this day is for remembering, to maybe shake the hand of a veteran, to buy him breakfast or lunch if you see him in a diner, or maybe just a cup of coffee. maybe it's a day to talk a few minutes about his family and ask how they are doing and NOT talk about anything from his military past. maybe it's a day to take some donuts next door to that grumpy old retired major. maybe it's a day to just hold the hand of your mother's friend, who was a nurse trying to put boys back togther on some island long ago.

maybe it's a day when you shut the hell up and listen, and just be warm and kind to a veteran

[edit on 11-11-2009 by jimmyx]

reply to post by Ulala


S&F for you Ulala

I could not have said it better myself..

To use that word 'hero' on any military personnel today is a disgrace...the word I use is' terrorist.''

I served in Operation Desert Storm and was proud of the part I played in the liberation of the Kuwaiti peolpe from the evil oppression of Iraq and Saddam Hussain.

Back then I was one of the sheeple and didn't question the OS and the lines of BS shoveled down our throats daily by the Govt and the MSM.

After what I've learned throughout the years about the lies and deception that brought us to that war, the oppression of the Iraqi people through the sanctions regime and finally the dishonest re-invasion and endless war on terror, I am no longer proud to have put my life on the line to advance the agenda of TPTB. I am ashamed of the part I played in this whole unholy drama.

I am no hero, I am the victim of the lies and lawlessness of the bureaucrats in Washington. So are those poor misguided souls over in Iraq & Afganistan today.

This contry hasn't fought in a just war since WWII.

Feel sorry for the vets of the past 40 years. We've been lied to and abused by a system we could not understand.

reply to post by rainfall


This coming from a man that probably thinks Osama Bin Ladin is a freedom fighter. Your posts never cease to amaze me Rainfall. For your sake, I hope you don't really believe that but are just trying to get a rise out of everyone.

Sigh. I see this topic getting a lot of replies... which is what I'm sure you were aiming for.


I am personally against the Iraq/Afghanistan war. I try to imagine what it would feel like to have a foreign country invade our country; to have curfews set, to see our buildings be toppled each day for our own 'safety', to hear or witness or experience the death of our friends, family, co-workers, etc. on a daily basis, to witness heavily armed soldiers constantly around your neighborhood near your children, never knowing when there may be a "bad apple" that decides to kill you.

I understand that our soldiers are there to help "liberate", but I do not feel it is our place to do so. I believe we should first take care of our OWN gangs, poverty, crime, etc. before we attempt to bring "peace" and "freedom" to a country that is obviously nothing like ours in many ways. We do not understand their culture.

If I had to witness my family being killed "on accident" by foreign invaders here to bring "peace", I am sure you'd find me with rockets firin' ablaze as well. Try and tell me you wouldn't do otherwise.

Yes, there may or may not have been an attack by Al-Qaida on 9/11(debatable, of course ) which lead us to all of this madness... but really, there is no need for us to be there.
Saddam is gone...let us stop losing our own men and women, and let us stop taking their men and women. The government does not care about the price of lives lost. Send the politicians to war, eh?

To those who have served... they may or may not be heroes, but you cannot debate the fact that they live under conditions that many of us cannot even begin to fathom. Constant stress, constant fear of death, and constant deaths of friends... not unlike those in Iraq who are witnessing the soldiers kill.

So, who is really the hero? Not sure... but let us care for our brothers and sisters. The bloodshed must end.

Maybe I was a little to harsh in my last post so I will clarify my thoughts for you. It seems some where along the line men were not shown how to be men by there fathers. Even if this post was just to get a fight going it shows alot of disrespect. I really wish your father had shown you how to be a man.

Just take a look at your avatar it shows a young man with his head down, shoulders slumped,and eyes looking sideways. It just seemed to fitting not to mention. And it always seems that people like you are the first to scream injustice over even the smallest of things, and then wonder while no one is listening even though you are on your knees begging.

I hope you find a good strong women to marry so your sons grow into good men. And not live their lives looking at everything sideways. I guess this post was more harsh than the last but I believe everyone including cowards deserve the truth