To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

"I'm tactically trained to not use my intelligence."
"The system is corrupt, try and change it so *I* can shoot you".
"Military should run the government."

- All I took from your post.

Wow sorry to see that your all twisted up there. You obviously don't know the soldiers creed or the 7 army value. Because you think soldiers would shoot you.



I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.


Loyalty
Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. constitution, the Army, and other soldiers.
Be loyal to the nation and its heritage.

Duty
Fulfill your obligations.
Accept responsibility for your own actions and those entrusted to your care.
Find opportunities to improve oneself for the good of the group.

Respect
Rely upon the golden rule.
How we consider others reflects upon each of us, both personally and as a professional organization.

Selfless Service
Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Selfless service leads to organizational teamwork and encompasses discipline, self-control and faith in the system.

Honor
Live up to all the Army values

Integrity
Do what is right, legally and morally.
Be willing to do what is right even when no one is looking.
It is our "moral compass" an inner voice.

Personal Courage
Our ability to face fear, danger, or adversity, both physical and moral courage.

This is what every soldier is taught and trained.

Originally posted by Obinhi


And please remind me, when was the last time the capital building was burned down by jews to facilitate the rise of a dictator in the US?

Ehhh, what???
You obviously need to readreadread, start with reading up on operation paperclip.

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Obinhi
Sorry about the double post, but at the end of the day, no one is forceing you to live in your current country. If you local police are really terrorizing you, move, or better yet, get elected to local office and do something about it. It is not the place of the military to step in when you get busted for doing 65 in a 50, or have a dime bag on you.

Really? Like really? Is no one capable of critical thinking anymore.

I am a natural born citizen of the United States of America. I am not a citizen of the U.S.

Police exist to enforce and defend our rights, not violate them. According to all these veterans they murder people for my rights. So how is it my fault the police violate them?

Why is it my duty to leave my country which my family fought for, to grant me freedom because my fellow citizens in authority abuse their authority?

So let's go down to the facts. You advocate throwing away my rights you murder others for and leave my country which you fought to make safe so I can have these rights? Yet when I EXPRESS THEM, you advise me to leave.

Do none of you think beyond the simplest thought which forms in your mind before typing it?

No, first of all allow me to illuminate you in the definition of Murder, 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

The second definition is to discribe something hard, exampe, traffic was murder. For an american military person to commit murder he or she must commit a crime based on Article 118 in the UCMJ.
usmilitary.about.com...

During a time of war, which is governed by the Geneva Convention:
en.wikipedia.org...
Military members who are following a lawful order are not commiting murder, but are executing military orders which may result in an unlawful killing. Please note that an unlawful killing is not always murder, for example, if someone attacks you with a stick and you shoot them, you could be commiting unlawful killing as you are trained to respond with like force. So in the stick example you should defend yourself with nonleathal means, ie a rifle butt to the gut. At the end of the day, what we do is not murder according to everyone who matters. So I regret to inform you that you are misguided in your attempt to lable me and my ilk.

Oh and I was not suggesting that you give up your rights, I know for a fact that in other countries the rights of the citizen are greater then in the United States of America, I was simply suggesting that you relocate to one of them. My suggested alternitative was that you run for office. Below are some suggestions for alternitive non militant countries.

en.wikipedia.org...

EDIT: Yes really.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Obinhi]

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen

Originally posted by Obinhi


And please remind me, when was the last time the capital building was burned down by jews to facilitate the rise of a dictator in the US?

Ehhh, what???
You obviously need to readreadread, start with reading up on operation paperclip.

I have, and what you suggest requires that the government use paramilitary forces to cause terrorist attacks in the home land, and then blame it on an entire race or religion. As it turns out, Afghanistan was a theocracy when we invaded, for which you will remember was a terrorist hunting mission, and to do other noble things, like give women the right to not die if they mouth off, or young females the right to know how to read. So to compare the US government to the Nazis shows a lack of historical knowledge on your part. Last time the United States attempted to exterminate a race of people was in the 1800s when we were expanding west.

Originally posted by jca2005
I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

...That doesn't sound like it's been repeatedly drilled into your head at all. After reading that I suddenly have a lot more faith in the free will and independent thought of our military. I think the stereotype American soliders have as mindless brainwashed drones is completely wrong.

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

Originally posted by jca2005
I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

...That doesn't sound like it's been repeatedly drilled into your head at all. After reading that I suddenly have a lot more faith in the free will and independent thought of our military. I think the stereotype American soliders have as mindless brainwashed drones is completely wrong.

...That doesn’t sound like sarcasm at all. You realize that there is a difference between Mind control and discipline. How would you like to have a military that does whatever it wants with little or no regard for civilians? We are required to do a lot of what we do by civilians, not the military. We are also required to be disciplined at all times.

reply to post by rainfall


I will be happy to converse with you here in the thread, but have no interest in replying to your U2U. I'm sorry that you can't even compose a simple U2U that doesn't consist of name calling, baseless accusations, and rude remarks, but since you couldn't I have no reason to believe that any off thread reply to you would be met by anything other than more of the same behavior that you directed at me in your first U2U.

I would also answer your question with a question of my own. Are you aware that the military forces do more than just fight wars? Did no one ever tell you that they stand in defense or that they work reconstruction and aid missions? Do you really need a list of all the other things that troops do beyond fighting when a war is happening?

Frankly, you are certainly welcome to speculate on what I can justify or not, but the fact that you presume to already know my thoughts makes any answer I offer rather superfluous. Why bother since you are sure you already know?

Take care,
Cindi

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
Something that makes me piss myself with laughter is every time one of these little nancyboys from Europe complains about "American Imperialism" is the fact that they probably wouldn't have even been conceived had it not been for the massive American deterrent of nuclear weapons poised along the border of east Germany during the cold war. It seems to slip their little minds that the only thing coming between 200,000 Soviet Tanks and an insane amount of Soviet soldiers rolling straight across Europe were those "big bad imperialist Americans".

When I see the kiddies on these boards, who are still very wet behind the ears, compare soldiers to terrorists, all I can do is thank the National Guard for Kent State and dead hippie protesters. Nice shooting fellas.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Jocko Flocko]

And if it wasn't for those "nancyboy European's", your nation wouldn't even exist in the first place.

So, you know, swings and roundabouts.

Originally posted by Obinhi
...That doesn’t sound like sarcasm at all. You realize that there is a difference between Mind control and discipline. How would you like to have a military that does whatever it wants with little or no regard for civilians? We are required to do a lot of what we do by civilians, not the military. We are also required to be disciplined at all times.

Let me ask you, what would you think if someone came on here and posted a message that said

I am a Taliban Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of Muhammad and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of Islam in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the Muslim way of life.

I am a Taliban Soldier.

...I wonder how many government search engines I just tripped off...


[edit on 13-11-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

But you've shown critical thinking or abstract though isn't your strong suit.

I gotta hand it to you, you must have a big ol' pair of nads, to make that claim on someone else. Maybe the material that was supposed to go to your brain went a bit lower instead?

Heroes. Hooray for hired murders (which in case you didn't know, is what a military is)

This is the reason I can make my statement above with all confidence. You've not progressed along the evolutionary path far enough to be able to define murder, or differentiate it from killing, yet you presume to say someone ELSE has problems with critical thinking or abstract thought?

Priceless!

Anyway continue your ignorant blah blah chest beating.

Indeed. And you may continue with YOUR ignorant... well, whatever it is your doing.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

But you've shown critical thinking or abstract though isn't your strong suit.

I gotta hand it to you, you must have a big ol' pair of nads, to make that claim on someone else. Maybe the material that was supposed to go to your brain went a bit lower instead?

Heroes. Hooray for hired murders (which in case you didn't know, is what a military is)

This is the reason I can make my statement above with all confidence. You've not progressed along the evolutionary path far enough to be able to define murder, or differentiate it from killing, yet you presume to say someone ELSE has problems with critical thinking or abstract thought?

Priceless!

Anyway continue your ignorant blah blah chest beating.

Indeed. And you may continue with YOUR ignorant... well, whatever it is your doing.

I'm confused what you're trying to say as there just seems to be a lot of emotion flowing from you. But I'll try to take this down to a very basic level. What is the purpose of a gun? What is the usual murder weapon in virtually every murder case? What does every soldier carry? Who pays a solider? Anyone who answers these questions honestly yet comes to a different conclusion has problems. I can't help that, all I can do is point it out.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic



Well, to be honest with you I would like that alot more then what they do currently, which is bring women and children into the frey. If they did have that kind of code it would be a simple process to negotiate a peace treaty and try to get a power shareing deal in place. This would lay the ground work to modernize the Afgan region and allow peace to have a chance. This would in turn provide the Afghan government the ability to govern and to provide for the security of its own people. This as you know would allow ISAF to leave the region and allow us to return to normal. for the most part. We will always maintain a presence, as we have 99 year agreements to Bagram Air Base and a few other bases in the country.


[edit on 13-11-2009 by Obinhi]

Originally posted by Glencairn
reply to post by rainfall

 

I will be happy to converse with you here in the thread, but have no interest in replying to your U2U. I'm sorry that you can't even compose a simple U2U that doesn't consist of name calling, baseless accusations, and rude remarks, but since you couldn't I have no reason to believe that any off thread reply to you would be met by anything other than more of the same behavior that you directed at me in your first U2U.

SNIP

Kudos to you for your restraint, I admit it's more than I would have used had I rec'd a personal note like that.




[edit on 13-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

But you've shown critical thinking or abstract though isn't your strong suit.

I gotta hand it to you, you must have a big ol' pair of nads, to make that claim on someone else. Maybe the material that was supposed to go to your brain went a bit lower instead?

Heroes. Hooray for hired murders (which in case you didn't know, is what a military is)

This is the reason I can make my statement above with all confidence. You've not progressed along the evolutionary path far enough to be able to define murder, or differentiate it from killing, yet you presume to say someone ELSE has problems with critical thinking or abstract thought?

Priceless!

Anyway continue your ignorant blah blah chest beating.

Indeed. And you may continue with YOUR ignorant... well, whatever it is your doing.

I'm confused what you're trying to say as there just seems to be a lot of emotion flowing from you. But I'll try to take this down to a very basic level. What is the purpose of a gun? What is the usual murder weapon in virtually every murder case? What does every soldier carry? Who pays a solider? Anyone who answers these questions honestly yet comes to a different conclusion has problems. I can't help that, all I can do is point it out.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Although you are correct in pointing out that guns are used most often to commit murder, you are incorrect in your failing to point out what country that applies to, and what kind of gun.

The standard weapon for the US military is the assault rifle, this type of weapon accounts for 4% of murders in the United States. According the Bureau of Justice the most common murder weapon in the US is the Handgun, otherwise known as the pistol. A Pistol is a poor stand up warrior weapon, as it has a short range and tends to be harder to master.

Also, it is important to note that a gun, as well as any other weapon, is a tool. It is a tool used to kill things, yes, but it is no more evil then a hammer. To assign us the 'evil' tag because some people have done evil things with guns makes about as much sense as me calling you a pedophile because you use the internet, and so do a lot of pedophiles.

Oh and you the tax paying citizen pay me. And Guess what, it is alot less then what people who do my job privately make.

Oh and when did people stop useing knives, poison, pillows, hands, feet, cars, and other assorted objects to kill people?


[edit on 13-11-2009 by Obinhi]

Originally posted by Ulala
Nope, I don't think you're all heroes.

Nor do I think you all stand shoulder to shoulder with those who stormed the Normandy beaches, liberated the deathcamps or fought street by street through Berlin......

snipped useless opinion

Too sensitive am I ? Don't think so.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Ulala]

and what have you done for your country and your fellow countrymen

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

I'm confused what you're trying to say as there just seems to be a lot of emotion flowing from you.

Of COURSE you are! Confirms my assessment of your "critical thinking" skills, as it was quite plain. Not my problem if you can't puzzle out plain speech, you might want to look to your education.

But I'll try to take this down to a very basic level.

Thanks, us knuckle-draggers appreciate your unwarranted condescention. With my gratitude to you properly expressed, let's have a look at your capacity for logical thinking, shall we?

What is the purpose of a gun?

The more efficient expulsion of projectiles via use of propellant gasses, rather than energy storage and release in elastic materials, such as the wood in bow limbs.

You were doubtless hoping I would say "killing", but that would be illogical and incorrect. The purpose of a gun is to expel that projectile. What you do with the expelled projectile is up to you.

What is the usual murder weapon in virtually every murder case?

There is no standardized weapon for "virtually every" murder case, any more than there is a standardized reason to commit murder.

You were, of course, hoping that I didn't know the answer, and would jump to the conclusion "guns", in support of you logically misleading and emotional argument. Firearms are used in roughly 60% of murders. Of those, the vast majority are handguns, so we will have to settle on "handguns" being the standardized murder weapon, I suppose.

What does every soldier carry?

A uniform.

Every soldier does NOT carry a "gun", much less a "murderous" handgun. I know that was the answer you were fishing for, but it just isn't true. Sometimes, facts get in the way of the most carefully constructed emotional appeals. Most soldiers are in support roles, and are not required to be armed.

Who pays a solider?

YOU do, through your taxes.

YOU, sir, by your own logic, are a murderer.

Anyone who answers these questions honestly yet comes to a different conclusion has problems.

You came to no conclusion, you instead tried to lead the reader into an illogical and emotionally fuelled one. Therefore, since I at least had the intestinal fortitude to draw a conclusion and state it, that is the "conclusion" we have come to. In light of that fact, I can't agree with your statement above more.

I can't help that, all I can do is point it out.

Yeah, what HE said.

Convenient how you sidestepped the issue of what constitutes "murder" to begin with in your diatribe. Could be because you don't really know, or it could be because you want to apply your personal definition, instead of the commonly accepted one.

I've noticed that habit a lot in folks who are long on emotion and short on logic.

Originally posted by apacheman
I'm a 'Nam vet.

I don't count myself a hero, although some folks have called some things I did heroic. I just did what was necessary at the time.

Working 55 hours at a stretch in temperatures of 50+ degrees F below zero on2/3 rations is not heroic, just cold, tiring, and hungry.

Working through the Hong Kong flu isn't heroic, just painful and debilitating.

Working on a flightline in 140+ F, isn't heroic, just hot, sticky and exhausting.

Answering the question "How's it going today?" with "Not bad, nobody's shooting at me today" isn't heroic, just a bald statement of my reality.

Gauging the fall of rockets to decide whether to continue working or dive for cover isn't heroic, just pragmatic experience.

Waiting for an airplane to return that never will isn't heroic, just painful grief that must be swallowed but never forgotten.

Breaking up a civilian bar robbery isn't heroic, just necessary to protect my girlfriend.

War is pure hell, not something to glorify or eagerly embrace. Ask any vet, they'll back me up on that. No one I knew in combat or out thought of themselves as heroes. We were just folks doing a very tough job, under extremely trying circumstances, sometimes for reasons we heartily disagreed with.

I'm not a hero, don't claim to be.

I'm just a veteran.

You can disrespect the wars I've fought in all you want, hell, I have some pretty strong attitudes about that myself. But you should at least acknowledge that the job's tough physically, enotionally, and spiritually, and give credit where it's due. Veterans never claim herohood...that's for non-vets to argue about, because they've never seen a true hero, as we have done. True heroes are usually dead ones. And even they would argue they weren't.

So your premise is wrong, OP, the hero thing is in YOUR head, not ours. Anyone who's served knows that there ARE true heroes, but they are few and far between, the rest of us are just folks with a broader experience of bad things than most people ever become aware of, much less go through.

We've gone through it and come out the other side, changed forever.

At least respect us for that, for just one day, then you can go back to ignoring us again.

This Navy officer salutes you Sir.

Originally posted by Obinhi

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen

Originally posted by Obinhi


And please remind me, when was the last time the capital building was burned down by jews to facilitate the rise of a dictator in the US?

Ehhh, what???
You obviously need to readreadread, start with reading up on operation paperclip.

I have, and what you suggest requires that the government use paramilitary forces to cause terrorist attacks in the home land, and then blame it on an entire race or religion. As it turns out, Afghanistan was a theocracy when we invaded, for which you will remember was a terrorist hunting mission, and to do other noble things, like give women the right to not die if they mouth off, or young females the right to know how to read. So to compare the US government to the Nazis shows a lack of historical knowledge on your part. Last time the United States attempted to exterminate a race of people was in the 1800s when we were expanding west.

If you still believe that the U.S troops are in Afghanistan to defend human rights there is really not much point in us discussing the matter....

As to paramilitary CIA funded terrorist organisations, what about al-qaida/taliban? What about Bin Laden who was a CIA tactician(I say was because he has been dead for some time)? How about Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple, what about MK-Ultra? Experimentation on their own people by the U.S government, in the spirit of nazi-Germany perchance?

Operation Northwoods proves beyond doubt that the U.S government is willing to use black ops as a form of reichstags burning to sway the opinion of the people to attack Cuba.
If 911 was such a black op to start the killing of the Muslim people of Iraq and Afghanistan or just for monetary gains is still being discussed to lengths here at ATS.

The point is the military is the elites extension to carry out these thing and as such is to blame individually for letting themselves being used as a tool.

why are people flagging this troll thread?

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen

If you still believe that the U.S troops are in Afghanistan to defend human rights there is really not much point in us discussing the matter....

As to paramilitary CIA funded terrorist organisations, what about al-qaida/taliban? What about Bin Laden who was a CIA tactician(I say was because he has been dead for some time)? How about Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple, what about MK-Ultra? Experimentation on their own people by the U.S government, in the spirit of nazi-Germany perchance?

Operation Northwoods proves beyond doubt that the U.S government is willing to use black ops as a form of reichstags burning to sway the opinion of the people to attack Cuba.
If 911 was such a black op to start the killing of the Muslim people of Iraq and Afghanistan or just for monetary gains is still being discussed to lengths here at ATS.

The point is the military is the elites extension to carry out these thing and as such is to blame individually for letting themselves being used as a tool.

Well, I agree, I am not going to convince you that the US government and by extension the world is not run by an evil cabal of Bond esque villains. However, it is important to remember that we are talking about the same group of people who supposedly cannot run anything, much less a world wide conspiracy against everyone.