Apollo 12's Covert EVA , Are E.T.'s the reason for the Secrecy ?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Since this thread alleges a 'SEVA' occured very soon after landing, then it will have to be made clear that the LM cabin could be evacuated faster than the Apollo 11 cabin.

DID they remove the biological filters for the Apollo 12 mission?

There were no biological filters used during Apollo 12. The Apollo 11 mission was the only one to use the cabin atmosphere biological filter before it's use was discontinued, and that filter was only on the +Z forward egress hatch and only applied to atmosphere being evacuated through the forward +Z Cabin Relief Dump Valve.

Here is a link that briefly mentions the fact that the bio-filter was only used on Apollo 11.

A bacteria filter could mounted on the cabin side of the forward cabin relief and dump valve. This was done only on Apollo 11.

www.hq.nasa.gov...

Cheers,
LC

reply to post by LunaCognita


Yes, thanks for the brilliant link. I like the nuts and bolts of things, it's my nature and I understand better that way.

I noticed you responded to a post, but I made a follow-on post too....

I found this on the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal.

115:05:44 Bean: Okay. (Pause)

[Al is reaching down to get the dump valve. There is also a dump valve in the overhead, rendezvous hatch. Although the checklist calls for use of the hatch valve, the choice of which valve to use for depressurization is up to the crew. Because it is a bit of a stretch to reach the overhead valve, only relatively tall people like Charlie Duke on 16 and Gene Cernan on 17 used it. Neil Armstrong opened the Apollo overhead valve for the depressurization prior to the post-EVA equipment jettison.]

[Jones - "The checklist explicitly calls out using the forward dump valve."]

[Conrad - "I don't remember ever talking about using the one in the overhead."]

[Al will open the forward dump valve and vent oxygen until the cabin pressure has reached 3.5 psi. He will then put the valve in the Auto position which, at 3.5 psi, means the valve is closed. They will then watch their suits respond to the decrease.]

I don't know if was already posted or even if it makes any difference, but posting it is free, so here it is.

reply to post by ArMaP

if it makes any difference

nope it doesn't make any difference that i can see and they had a choice of which valves they wanted to use. it say's 17 used the over head one and 11 also did.

This photograph shows the interior of the Apollo 17 lunar module Challenger after the third and final EVA. The astronauts (Gene Cernan and Jack Schmitt) have removed their A7-LB spacesuits and laid them atop the ascent engine cover here, with the inside of the +X overhead hatch clearly visible above.
www.hq.nasa.gov...
easynowsmoonblog.blogspot.com...

reply to post by easynow

OK, at least I tried.

Back to searching.

reply to post by ArMaP


thanks for trying ArMaP even though i have no idea what it is you were trying

since you mentioned posting is free...

i thought i would share this strange anomaly from image #AS12-53-7927

www.lpi.usra.edu...
www.lpi.usra.edu...
www.lpi.usra.edu...

I, too, would like to see those pictures. Let's hope they surface.

Well, seeing as how it is free to post and all... I may as well take advantage of it too!
(Sorry gang, but my 4000 characters per post limit I still have to adhere to forced me to chop this one up into two posts. It continues below.)

I just want to clarify some things about the depress capabilities of the Grumman lunar module and how that related to the covert SEVA timeline during the Apollo 12 mission.

Firstly, it really did not matter at all which Cabin Relief Dump Valve the astronauts were using. Both the forward (+Z) and overhead (+X) Cabin Relief Dump Valves were capable of evacuating the LM of it's atmosphere quite quickly - in fact, there is evidence that appears to show that either one of those valves on it's own was capable of dumping the LM atmosphere even faster than most NASA documentation claims they could!

If you do some archive digging, you will find that most NASA info (like the last link I showed in that earlier post above for example) states that with no biologic/bacterial filter installed, use of just one of the Cabin Relief Dump Valves would take 180 seconds to depressurize the LM so that the internal pressure matched the near-vacuum external lunar environment. However, all we have to do is have a listen to some of the Apollo mission audio tapes in the archives with a stopwatch handy and we can see that they could depress the LM quite a bit quicker than that if they wanted to!

The most relevant example I can show to illustrate what I am talking about was the only other mission besides Apollo 12 that we know conducted a Standup-EVA - Apollo 15. Apollo 15 conducted a declared SEVA that was part of their publicized mission flightplan and was done in the public eye. Since the depressurization hardware (the Dump Valves) and the overhead hatches on both the A12 and A15 LM's were of the same design, that means we can use the Apollo 15 declared SEVA depress timeline as a direct analog to show how Apollo 12 would have also depressurized the LM at the beginning of their entirely covert SEVA.

During Apollo 15, at the start of their declared SEVA, astronauts Jim Irwin and Dave Scott had to bring the LM internal cabin pressure down from the nominal 4.6psi to essentially zero, and to do this, the official public record claims they used just the forward +Z Cabin Relief Dump Valve. First, Scott and Irwin partially depressurized the LM cabin from 4.6psi to 3.5psi, which ensured that their internal spacesuit pressure was holding above the new 3.5psi cabin ambient. Scott and Irwin then held the cabin at 3.5psi for about 45 seconds as they conducted a "suit integrity" test. This integrity test was done before every EVA on every mission as a final check to ensure that the spacesuits did not have any leaks and were sealed correctly prior to exposing them (and their occupants) to hard vacuum. After 45 seconds of waiting, Scott and Irwin then continued with the depress, bleeding all the remaining internal pressure from the LM. At that point they then cracked open the +X overhead hatch to ensure proper equalization with the external lunar environment had been achieved, and then finally, Scott and Irwin swung the hatch all the way open on it's hinges and locked/latched it back so they could begin their declared SEVA.

Now, again, most NASA documentation claims that the use of one of the Cabin Relief Dump Valves to fully evacuate the atmosphere from the LM would take 180 seconds. That does not include opening any hatches or anything - it simply means NASA claims it took that long to fully bleed the LM of all it's atmospheric pressure by way of using one of the two dump valves. Did it really take 180 seconds to depressurize the LM cabin though?

(Continued below....)

(Continuation from above....)

Well, NASA claimed the crew were only using one Dump Valve (the +Z forward valve) on Apollo 15 during their declared SEVA depress, and starting at 4.6psi ambient internal cabin pressure, from the time the Apollo 15 crew first began bleeding pressure from the LM to the time where they actually had the +X overhead hatch FULLY open AND latched so they could climb up through it - took only 165 seconds in total!

So, not only did the Apollo 15 crew empty the 4.6psi atmosphere from the spacecraft in less than 180 seconds using just one dump valve, but they actually
- dropped the atmosphere from 4.6psi to 3.5psi for the suit integrity check
- waited 45 seconds for that suit integrity check to complete
- continued with the depress until matching the external near-vacuum environment
- cracked the +X overhead hatch open to fully equalize
- swung the +X overhead hatch fully down and open on it's hinges
- latched/locked the hatch back to hold it in the full open position

Again, prior to the start of their declared SEVA during Apollo 15, Scott and Irwin took a total of only 165 seconds to do all that. NASA says that it should take 180 seconds just to empty the atmosphere from the LM with one dump valve being used, but as you can hear for yourself below, that claim doesn't hold up to the stopwatch.

Here, have a listen. I attached an MP3 audio file cropped from the Apollo 15 mission so you can listen to Scott and Irwin depressurizing the LM before their SEVA. This clip includes the full opening and latching of the overhead +X hatch as well. The clip begins right at MET 106:41:51 with the words "going open", said just as Jim Irwin cracked the +Z forward Cabin Relief Dump Valve to start bleeding atmosphere from the LM. Listen as it takes just less than 10 SECONDS to depress the LM from 4.6psi to 3.5psi, where they then pause for 45 seconds for the suit integrity check before continuing to bleed out the internal atmosphere completely. This clip, which is 165 seconds long, ends just as Dave Scott latches the overhead +X hatch wide open inside the now fully depressurized LM.

APOLLO 15 - SEVA DEPRESSURIZATION AND HATCH OPENING - Sendspace link to MP3 audio file (2.3 Megs)
www.sendspace.com...

So, depressurization of the LM was something that could be conducted quite quickly and efficiently during an Apollo mission - more quickly and efficiently than even NASA likes to admit since they officially (and apparently erroneously) claim that it took 180 seconds just to depressurize the LM using one dump valve! The evidence from the Apollo 15 declared SEVA prep alone proves that the LM could be fully evacuated of atmosphere using just the forward Cabin Relief Dump Valve to do the job AND a 45-second pause for a suit integrity check at 3.5 psi could be conducted AND the overhead +X hatch could be cracked AND fully opened AND latched, all within just 165 seconds.

Cheers,
LC

reply to post by LunaCognita


thanks LunaCognita for the great information and that audio file from A15

it certainly didn't take long to depress the cabin which no doubt leaves more time to conduct the stand up EVA same as for Apollo 12.

i have uploaded the audio file in a youtube video and on the ATS media player just in case anyone wanted or needed to listen to it on there.

ATS media link
media.abovetopsecret.com...



same audio clip on youtube

APOLLO 15 - SEVA DEPRESSURIZATION AND HATCH OPENING




here is that Apollo 17 pic showing the overhead hatch and valve...



www.hq.nasa.gov...


[edit on 13-12-2009 by easynow]

looool.... i also thought of making a free post.....

well it seems hubble has been clicking on the moon.....

Hubble Space Telescope Looks at the Moon to Prospect for Resources (Aristarchus Crater - color)

Hubble Space Telescope Looks at the Moon to Prospect for Resources (Aristarchus Crater - gray)

Hubble Space Telescope Looks at the Moon to Prospect for Resources (Apollo 17 Landing Region)

svs.gsfc.nasa.gov...

and somebody spotted this anomaly......





www.youtube.com...

reply to post by mcrom901


thanks for the links,

yes it seems Hubble has been looking for (*cough *cough*) "re$ource$"



seen this today, looks like the Chandrayaan 1 lunar probe has detected signatures of organic matter on parts of the Moon's surface ?

Chandrayaan-1, picked up signatures of organic matter on parts of the Moon's surface, Surendra Pal, associate director, Isro Satellite Centre (Isac), said at the international radar symposium here on Friday.

Organic matter consists of organic compounds, which consists of carbon -- the building block of life.

It indicates the formation of life or decay of a once-living
www.dnaindia.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

i also seen that video from undercoveralien and i was wondering how he found that and how did it go from this....




to this ?....



and what the shell is it

Hey Easy,
Thanks my friend for converting that MP3 audio file into a brief Youtube video for everyone. Good stuff! Definitely makes it easier for anyone to listen to it. I did not know that ATS had a media player thing I can use either - my bad! (Guess I shoulda done a better job reading the FAQ, huh?)

At the very start of that Apollo 15 SEVA depress (you can listen to it in Easynow's ATS media clip here - media.abovetopsecret.com... ), we hear Commander Dave Scott saying to Jim Irwin that "I'll call you at 3.5", meaning that Scott will tell Irwin when the internal LM pressure gauge hits 3.5psi so that Irwin can close the Cabin Relief Dump Valve to stop the depress so they can conduct the required "suit integrity check" prior to exposing themselves to hard vacuum. A second later, you hear Scott begin calling out the initial falling pressure readings, saying "4.5...4.0...Mark 3.5" The cadence of Scott's voice during that call-out really does let us hear how quickly these cabin dump valves were capable of evacuating positive LM atmospheric pressure out of the spacecraft and into the lunar near-vacuum environment.

In fact, if we take a stopwatch to the Apollo 15 SEVA depress and count only the periods of time when the dump valve is open and the LM cabin is in the process of being evacuated of it's atmosphere, we see that the LM cabin was actually fully depressed from 4.6psi to lunar near-vacuum atmospheric in somewhere between 55 to 70 seconds - a FAR cry from the 180 seconds that NASA claims it took in their Dump Valve and LM-ECS documentation dealing with the subject of depressurizing the LM. I say "somewhere between 55 to 70 seconds" because as you hear on the tape, Scott and Irwin do not really verbalize the exact moment the LM internal pressure gauge was reading zero. Obviously though, the LM pressure had to be even with the external lunar atmospheric pressure (or darn close to it) for the overhead hatch to cracked open, and once it was cracked, the LM was definitely fully equalized.

During Apollo 17, Gene Cernan took advantage of the Commander's initiative and chose to use the overhead +X Cabin Relief Dump Valve as the primary depress valve to evacuate the LM atmosphere prior to his and Jack Schmitt's surface EVAs. During the first of those Apollo 17 depress scenarios prior to beginning EVA1, Cernan was reaching up and was manipulating the +X dump valve, and actually commented that "I can see daylight through it", referring to the fact that the bleed hole in the dump valve was large enough and offered enough of an unrestricted passage to the outside that he could see exterior daylight streaming through the opening it created. Without any bacteria/bio-filters installed (which were only used on Apollo 11's +Z valve anyways remember), the dump valves clearly allowed for the LM to be depressurized very quickly.

Just for a different visual perspective, here is another picture showing the +X overhead hatch and the +X Cabin Relief Dump Valve in the LM. You can see the dump valve to the right and aft of the overhead hatch handle. This shot was taken inside one of the LM simulators here on Earth, and although this is non-flight hardware we are seeing, the overhead hatch and dump valve is accurately reproduced. As a side note, it is also worth pointing out (not that you could miss it!) that Gene Cernan is wearing a FANTASTIC pair of leisure pants here, and a SWEEEET alligator shirt too! This photo was taken in late October of 1972, so there is a possibility that Cernan was just preparing for Halloween here. He is definitely pimpin' pretty hard in this shot, no two ways about that! It gives me a chuckle because I remember seeing pictures of my Dad in a pair of pants just like that back in the 1970s. Good times!


www.hq.nasa.gov...

Cheers gang,
Luna

reply to post by LunaCognita

Thanks for the great audio file showing how fast the cabin can depressurize, that really is pretty fast!

And the upper hatch photos are great too. That's quite a sturdy looking hatch. I guess there must be a retracting or roll-up ladder somewhere that doesn't show up in the photos?

www.lpi.usra.edu...

The Standup EVA
Commander David R. Scott, his upper body extending through the top hatch of the lunar module (LM), performed the 33-minute standup EVA.

I just realized when I read that apparently on Apollo 15 only one astronaut poked his upper body through the top hatch. I sort of got the impression they climbed completely out the top but I guess not. I was looking for pictures of the inside ladder they climb for top hatch egress but didn't have much luck.

I also noticed the way the public communications start out after 18 minutes of silence seems out of context unless there was some private communication during those 18 minutes:

Apollo 12 Lunar Surface Journal

111:58:43 Gibson: Intrepid, Houston.
111:58:47 Conrad: Go ahead.
111:58:49 Gibson: Well done, Intrepid. You got a bunch of happy geologists in the back room waiting to go. Say, we're standing by with a LM consumables update and also standing by for your description (of the view out the window).

So if they weren't having private communications, what does "well done Intrepid" refer to?

reply to post by Arbitrageur

I was looking for pictures of the inside ladder they climb for top hatch egress but didn't have much luck

i'm not answering for LunaCognita but he did talk about that in the article..

The astronaut conducting the S-EVA would then stand up on top of the ascent engine cover inside the LM crew compartment (much like standing on a bench or low table) so that he could poke his upper body out through the +X overhead hatch and take in the full 360-degree panoramic of the landing site from just over seven meters up. Due to the dimensions of the +X hatch, only one astronaut could take in this “view from the top floor” at a time.
easynowsmoonblog.blogspot.com...

reply to post by easynow

Thanks I guess I missed that, which explains why there's no ladder. I did find a good sketch of the ascent engine cover here though (about halfway down the page):

history.nasa.gov...

reply to post by Arbitrageur


ok no problem , i have read the Secret EVA article enough times to know LunaCognita covered most everything. thanks for the link and i have seen that before and at first it's hard to judge the scale of things in that illustration. you can tell the LM cabin was small and with the engine cover they surely didn't need no ladder to look outside.



[edit on 16-12-2009 by easynow]

reply to post by easynow


cherio buddy

do you have any details about this clip.....

www.funnyordie.com...
"and the rains getting pretty steep"

hoax or authentic?

what the heck.... check the moon weather info.... raindrops..... clouds....










[edit on 30/12/09 by mcrom901]

comments from the transcripts.....

131:54:00 Shepard: Okay, babe. Fred, the surface, here - we spoke about that - is textured. It is, of course, a very fine-grain, dusty regolith, much the same as we have in the vicinity of the LM. But, there seems to be small pebbles - more small pebbles - here on the surface than we had back around the LM area. And the population of larger rocks, perhaps small boulder size, is more prevalent here. Okay, this is probably pretty good.

131:54:32 Mitchell: Yeah, this a good place for A and I might also comment, Fredo, that we have an appearance here, quite often, like raindrops; (like) a very few raindrops have splattered the surface. It gives you that appearance. Obviously, they haven't; but it's that sort of texture. In places.

131:54:52 Shepard: Yeah, I think...I was just about to say that there's a relationship between the texture and these small surface pebbles. Okay, point A.

132:03:27 Haise: And, while we got a few seconds there, Ed. The raindrop pattern you mentioned, is it pretty general or is it just here and there that you noted this texture?

132:03:40 Mitchell: It seems to be fairly general, Fred. (Long Pause)

history.nasa.gov...

132:05:50 Shepard: Okay, we got close-up shots: 12, 13, and 14. All at 9 o'clock shadow, 12 and 14 are two typical examples of the raindrop-textured pattern of which Ed spoke. Now, 13 is a picture of a foot track...

anaglyphs..... raindrop pattern.....

history.nasa.gov...

history.nasa.gov...

history.nasa.gov...