An attack on America by Europe

post by EMPIRE


post by SLAYER69


I have to wonder if either of you notice the irony embedded in those last posts. While each one was intent on getting the point across to the other, it seems some fundamentals got overlooked…

Now if you tell them one of the steps of moving forward is to stop talking and to start listening, you'll hear that you're "speaking like a woman” … for even suggesting that the failure to listen vastly contributes to the problem.

Unlike you I won’t use a woman's voice. I'm a man and I've said how I feel.

What of the "hint" at disregard of half the populations opinion? Oh, I realize that this message got buried in one-liners, but it’s there nonetheless and sarcasm aside, it suggests many more questions about “hypocrisy” in communication.

To the bigger picture: while each "side" bemoans the other for all the wrongs and unjust accusations it perceives coming its way, as well as the supposed inability for anyone to "listen" to anyone else, I think it wise to keep in mind that it starts with the self.

*Now, I get to make a choice about my feelings regarding the implication that “as a woman” my voice is disregarded*

Awesome.
_______________________________________

ETA: My larger point of the post - anybody can take anything "personal" and of course, posts can't always be worded to take this into account. No one can spend their time trying to word posts so as not to ever offend anyone. Taking a moment to consider the message in a post before deciding whether it was meant as an attack or baseless bash, would probably be wise.

Or, maybe not... just a thought

[edit on 22-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by LadySkadi


You're right. I've been insensitive.

I apologize. My attempt at Sarcasm didn't come across the way I wanted it to. Please accept my apology.

Empire is right about a great many things. Sums it up well...
When I lived in the US, I could not "get over" the perception that nationalists lived in a bubble. They could explain everything - but somehow it all reminded me of Nazis. BTW, I lived almost next door to the American Nazi Party in Virginia Beach.
I went to translate at peacekeeping games and grew to like US soldiers. I was a civilian but I felt for a few weeks that they were on the whole a very nice and practical bunch of people, inventive and focused upon solving problems.
I also had the perception that people there from my original birth country were very narrow-minded and nationalistic, intolerant of anything new, even my practice of T'ai Chi like movements from Tensegrity. In contrast, US soldiers winked at me and said, "Doin' some T'ai chi, man? Good for you!"
BTW the form I did was an Indian style movement from Mexico.
I changed my quarters to American. And I made friends.

The thing with this thread is that the bubble is going to burst. The OP is a good soldier, nevertheless, it is a bit late to realize that the entire war was the deed of people like Goebbels. I'm not saying America is like Nazi Germany but the danger is clearly there.

This could be a time for healing these wounds - I mean honest patriotic people were cheated to fight an obviously inhuman war. Depleted Uranium is going to ruin the lives of millions of people in the future - it has a slow decomposing rate. Saddam was an evil tyrant, but he killed only tens of thousands, and did not make his country a 30% Chernobyl. The "liberators" did. And Halliburton made an obscene profit.

In fact, the OP may have DU syndrome too. Would be worth to check it out...

OP, you are saying time and again that the Iraq war was legal and just - and the more times you do it the more times I feel the doubt ringing behind your words, a terrible doubt that you have been wronged by the regime. Why did Europeans not help us with a full shoulder?
Precisely because Europe still remembers Nazism.

You have been wronged. Just as German soldiers who believed Poland had to be run over to secure Europe from Communism and the dangers of Jewish conspiracies. I do not blame anyone who comes to change his or her views. In fact, that is why you are here.

You will be forgiven, here by people, and by God - whatever way you approach the final Unity. And I think you may already be cracking your bubble - which is a courageous thing.

Yes, you meant well. And you were cheated. It is important for you to realize that. And I wonder how surprised you will be when you discover your truth...

The world is rightly afraid of US nationalists. Maybe you are not one of them, and every person counts.

I do not have any belief system to replace this vacuum left by the dying nationalist veneer. True, simple human feelings are the best.

My family had experiences in World War, my grandfather was executed by Communist tyrants for his dissident views, we were hiding Jews under German occupation... my parents met in the '56 revolts against Soviets - which got brutally crushed while the whole Western world was just wringing their hands saying, "Oh, my..." Somehow I got a bit oversensitive to anything smelling totalitarian.
Yes, most people in the part of the world I grew up in thought of American participation in World War 2 as positive.
The same could not be said of either Iraq or Afghanistan.

You were not defending the US there. You were defending some corrupt businessmen and power-hungry fascists who exploited your sensibilities.

I support the troops but not what they were ordered to do.
Look at the radioactive dust. It is all sadness. And profits for Halliburton - Cheney's company.

Watch some good films instead. In Stargate 1 the soldiers protrayed do not make these mistakes.

Islam is no more a threat to democracy than Judaism was to European civilization in the thirties. These are all shadow projections for evil leaders to deceive decent people.

Originally posted by djusdjus
reply to post by nenothtu

 

stan in near and middle eastern languages merely means "land of" there are only 7 countries that have istan or stan at the end.

for pakistan it means "land of the pure"

why is this so interesting?

It's like finding out that shi shi ni means thanks in chinese. lol

Wow. Out of that huge post, that's all you could find to take issue with? I guess I was pretty close to the bullseye. then. Let's examine what I said yet again, in light of your assessment of it.

Originally posted by nenothtu

For grins and giggles, ask a Pakistani sometime where all those "stans" came from. While you're talking to him, ask him about Bangaladesh and India too.

It could be educational for your average European.

You'll no doubt note, upon a close examination, that nowhere did I insinuate that I didn't know what "-stan" means. The question was nowhere on the table even. The exercise proposed was to "ask a Pakistani where all those stans came from", not what they mean.

I did exactly that. He had some very coarse words for the British in connection with the partitioning of the "stans", which occurred within his memory, and is part of the cause for his having become an American citizen.

He was also less than charitable concerning the Brits in the matter of India and Bangladesh, which I thought to be unfair, since Britain was ostensibly long gone from the area when Bangladesh BECAME Bangladesh, but he DID have a convincing argument in favor of his point.

Are wrongs done in living memory recent enough, or do they have to have been done just yesterday? At what point is European history clean enough to be presentable, so that one can continue trashing the US with a clear conscience?

[edit on 2009/10/23 by nenothtu]

reply to post by EMPIRE

Frankly, it seems you haven't learned... I read blame-shifting. Moaning about "others" pre-disposition absolves you of yours? Nope, doesn't work that way. So sorry.

Anyway, I think that you have made the right decision to move. You hate the country so much and are unwilling to work towards improving it, than moving is the best option. Enjoy that.

reply to post by Kokatsi

I have to take exception with the suggestion that we have turned 30% of Iraq into a Chernobyl equivalent, and that the depleted uranium used in munitions and armor have poisoned the country.

We likely used about 1,000 tons of depleted uranium, which only has half the U235 as "natural" uranium.

The bulk was used on point targets in the form of 20mm gatling rounds, 25mm chain guns, or 30mm weapons which are designed to be most effective against armor.

The other round is in sabot form of our anti-armor tank ammunition.

Combined with other metals that are carcinogenic - tungsten, nickel, and cobalt, it can be said that the need and use of these munitions is just a cost of war.

You'll note that Hiroshima and Nagasaki got the full dose, but oddly, the cities are thriving.

Unless we shot up 30% of the countryside with depleted uranium ammunition, which is only half the radioactivity of U235, then this "poisoning" doesn't seem very likely.

My apologies for this bit, but I like keeping things straight and within certain parameters of fact.

You also made some very good observations, and I enjoy reading your posts.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Forget about it.

It provided an example to make a general point about personal control over one's feelings and the choices someone might make that result in handing that control over to someone else, based on emotional responses to words... That point goes to the larger topic of this thread.

All good.



[edit on 23-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

Frankly, it seems you haven't learned... I read blame-shifting. Moaning about "others" pre-disposition absolves you of yours? Nope, doesn't work that way. So sorry.

This is babble, I'm sorry I had to read it.

Anyway, I think that you have made the right decision to move. You hate the country so much and are unwilling to work towards improving it, than moving is the best option. Enjoy that.

Who said I hate the country? I said I feel no connection to the country. Hate, or love, would imply an intrinsic connection, but as previously stated, I have no connection. This is simply the place I was born, nothing more.

How do you know I'm unwilling to work towards improving it? You don't know what I've done or what I continue to do, or what I will do after I leave. So enjoy that.

reply to post by EMPIRE

This is babble, I'm sorry I had to read it.

Your words, your message. Don't like what's in the mirror? Deal.

Who said I hate the country? I said I feel no connection to the country. Hate, or love, would imply an intrinsic connection, but as previously stated, I have no connection. This is simply the place I was born, nothing more.

How do you know I'm unwilling to work towards improving it? You don't know what I've done or what I continue to do, or what I will do after I leave. So enjoy that.

No, you haven't mentioned anything that you've done to improve that which you see as problem(s) both at home and abroad, not on this thread. You have b*tched about it enough though. If you have intentions of doing something in the future, great for you. Luck with the move, carry on.


[edit on 23-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by mtaftm
Everyone's done something bad

However I'm going to back up Britain due to the fact that i'm British.
I'm so proud of my country because of what we have accomplished, we took over 2/3 of the world, we are one hell of a tiny country, and still we took over that much.
We have done some crazy sh*t i know that but hey everyone learns from there mistakes, it's just the fact us compared to america or russia ect we are flippin tiny, but we took over so much, i am so proud of my country.

I have respect for america to and any other countries.
but don't say you are the powerfulist because infact your not no one is the powerfulist anyone could wipe out anyone.

i just want to say 100 percent british and fu**** proud baybii woop!

Welp. That was embarrassing.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


Your right are you about the USA and how it acts in Iraq and Afganistan how
about your so called best soldiers and all the FRIENDLY FIRE deaths they have caused your safer behind enemy lines at timeS than fighting with the USA!

reply to post by LadySkadi

Your words, your message. Don't like what's in the mirror? Deal.

My words and my message are quite clear, and before you replied to my post, you were simply a figment of your imagination as I didn't even know you existed. You deal.

No, you haven't mentioned anything that you've done to improve that which you see as problem(s)

In this thread I mentioned nothing pertaining to what I do because I was never asked. If people ask, instead of assuming, I will tell them. If not, I'm not going to go blabbing on about what it is I do, and how I help. That is being boastful, and there is no need for me to do that. In regards to the problem of racism, and White Privilege, I have openly stated what needs to be done. All you have to do is R-E-A-D my response concerning the doctor and the patient. Better yet, what is it you quoted about LISTENING? Did you R-E-A-D what I said about listening and how that is a start that people should take but that people will refuse to do so on the grounds that listening is for women? I mean you of all people should know because you quoted it. LOL!

In your wacky world, not revealing particular behaviors or actions equates to those behaviors or actions being nonexistent. To that I say refer to the end of this post.

both at home and abroad, not on this thread.

see above.

You have b*tched about it enough though.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you. You have your opinion you are entitled to it. In your next response make it the best one you have, complete with whatever 'spiritual' mumbo jumbo you'd like to toss in. That way I can get a good chuckle and say, "only on ATS", and move on to the next person.

(Side note to others: If I were to respond to this in "Appropriate Fashion #2" I'd probably get dinged another 1000 ATS points. Take it from me kids, don't fall for stuff like this. Address it swiftly and move on.)

If you have intentions of doing something in the future, great for you. Luck with the move, carry on.

But see according to you I "hate this country so much" (assumptions and madness on your part) and I'm "unwilling to work towards improving", so why are you wishing me luck? ROFL! I would ask you to back your claims, but I already shot one down (the hate thing) and don't feel like wasting time asking you to prove your other claims.

Logic. Buy some. Win some. Steal some. Trade for some. I don't care how you get it, just get it. Make the next one your best one, because from here on out I'm ignoring you without even using the ignore button.


[edit on 23-10-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by EMPIRE

I will make this short and sweet...

Your quote was:

When people are predisposed to thinking a certain way, or have a certain view about you, it is best to say as little as possible and move on. It took me 2,000 ATS points to figure it out, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.

My point was:
For someone who seems to be trying to get others [whom he feels aren't being open and receptive to listening and hearing what those outside their circle are saying] doesn't seem to be doing that himself. It's a simple, but fundamental point.

And this lovely gem:

Logic. Buy some. Win some. Steal some. Trade for some. I don't care how you get it, just get it. Make the next one your best one, because from here on out I'm ignoring you without even using the ignore button.

Effective. Ends the interaction, as you intended. Quite fine with me. I had no intention of going in circles with someone who's postings "suggest" that he is not immune to the [very idea he is criticizing others for] and isn't open to hearing that he's coming off that way.



[edit on 23-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

For some reason it is hard for me to figure all you political history buffs.
I do not see where anyone understands that the USA and the EU are under attack by Marxist/ Bolshevism.
They are not being assailed by anything even close to Nazi culture.
It is the Marxist interlopers that have created the present economic and political climate.
It is understandable how the USA and Europe have forgotten about the reality of this driving force as it has been deviously swept under the rug and confused with the Nazi's.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by centurion1211

 

thanks for that, I could have gone on but what’s the point we all have a dark history, and I get so tired of hearing it from Europeans who think there nations are the greatest and there so tolerant.

Almost (NB almost) all US citizens are either:

a) Native american (the only true american)
b) African of origin (due to slavery)
c) European of origin due to economic immigration (immigration due to persecution is a very small percentage)

Just because some declaration was made in 1776 does not mean that all "americans" suddenly stopped having european ancestry! In fact the colonisation of the US by EUROPEANS continued for a couple of hundred years. Even the latin americans were simply europeans of spanish origin.

European nations have grown and learnt from their mistakes the US is only just starting, that's the problem and your arrogance makes you agitated.

reply to post by dooper


Thanks for straightening me up on that one.
There are more horror pictures coming out of Afghanistan than Iraq actually.
I read about one half of all babies are born as horrible monsters.
This did not happen in Japan, except to a small amount of people.
Anyway, the impersonal, collective nature of this type of punishment on anyone is the part that reminds me of Nazi things. Chernobyl detto - and the Soviet secret cities of research with radioactive waste thrown around - curiously enough at Muslim villages mostly. We have had people in Budapest coming from those villages - just run-of-the-mill Soviet stuff. All they did was post some photos of relatives. We were all sick from just seeing them. One guy had a head almost double the size of mine. He was intelligent, not like a Down syndrome person... All the more horrible.

This was genetic mutation resulting from low-level, long-term exposure to radioactivity. And it is expected it will continue in parts of Afghanistan and certain areas in Iraq for millions of years to come.

I almost wish there was a Hiroshima style bomb instead of the insidious, low-level radioactivity... Babies are born with several cancers. The same type of people in the Ukraine are expected to live only for a maximum of twenty years. Some can never walk or even crawl, but funnily enough they are very intelligent. They like to study as a replacement for being normal.

If DU dust is there as reported, this whole war was bit oversized collective punishment for the deeds of an average third world tyrant any South American dictator would surpass...

Again, thanks for straightening up the facts.

reply to post by LadySkadi


Look...
You keep on criticizing Empire without addressing his points relevant to our topic.
It seems that your political beliefs are limiting you - no doubt this is true of many of us, but yours cannot encompass both sides of the debate in this thread - and as soon as you cannot reply in merito, you turn it personal and attack the bearer of the bad news.

This thread is about American nationalism and its criticism by the rest of the world, and primarily by the countries in the European Union.

Your presupposition is that emotion clouds logic. This is not true from a psychological point of view. If your emotions are repressed, they tend to suddenly erupt and you lose your head.

Why don't you write about your emotions concenring the various things brought up here? Such as ... when I read this and this string, I feel like XYZ?

Emotions do have a place in patriotism, love and hate etc. Why rationalize? Over-rationalizing can easily turn women into an animus projection - usually a lot more unfair and cold than a real man.

(I assume you are a woman from your avatar and name, please correct me if I am wrong.)

Your avatar is cool BTW.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
For some reason it is hard for me to figure all you political history buffs.
I do not see where anyone understands that the USA and the EU are under attack by Marxist/ Bolshevism.
They are not being assailed by anything even close to Nazi culture.
It is the Marxist interlopers that have created the present economic and political climate.
It is understandable how the USA and Europe have forgotten about the reality of this driving force as it has been deviously swept under the rug and confused with the Nazi's.

I understand that. I understand it very well. But whenever I put that on the table for all to see, their minions here (and there are several - both sides of the Atlantic - present at ATS) immediately look around to see if anyone was listening and heard THAT, and if so they immediately launch an attack, accusing me of not even knowing what Marxism, socialism, bolshevism, which ever flavor of "ism" they promote IS. Said attack is launched to cover and obscure whatever I said about their particular pet "ism" to begin with.

Now, normally, I find it amusing when youngsters try to tell me how much more they know than I. It's really kind of cute. In the realm of politics, especially the totalitarian or dictatorial variety of politics they espouse, and try to cover for, however, it's just plain dangerous, and if done properly can nearly make my head explode in frustration at the sheer foolishness. They prefer to promote things they've never seen first hand, and have only read about, as some sort of utopian solution. Books are wonderful things, but one must realize there is a big bad world out there that will frequently give the lie to books that are too biased.

The conversation generally goes something like this:

Me- (insert favorite -ism here) is not anything I'D want to live under. Here's why- blah, blah, blah, pertaining to favorite -ism.

Them- oh no, you don't know what you're talking about! THAT'S not the way it is at all!

Me- OK, tell me how it is, then. Enlighten me.

Them- Well first off, you have it all wrong, that's not the way (insert favorite -ism here) works at all. You should read about it more, then you would see! You just don't know ANYTHING about ( favorite -ism again)! Pick up a book, why don'tcha!

Me- OK. Show me an example of how it's worked that way in the real world. Where exactly has (insert favorite -ism here) worked out the way you and your textbooks say, and not devolved into the (totalitarian/dictatorial/soul crushing, etc) that I say? Where? Any one example will suffice.

Them- You're a senile old man, your feet smell, your mother wears combat boots, and I'm not talking to you any more! You're so stupid I don't know how you even found the internet. Blah, blah, blah...

And so it goes, devolving into a personal attack in order to cover the fact that they can't give me a real world example of what they say, and I CAN provide real-world backups.

Their systems have resulted in bodies stacked like cord-wood waiting on bulldozers to finish mass graves. To cover that, they have to come up with outrageous claims using emotional language and pointing the finger at SOMEONE else, to distract attention from the historical facts that their favorite -ism never works out like the books say it ought to. NONE of them do, including mine.

You can almost always recognize them by language. They say things like "war crimes","the criminal (insert favorite leader here)", criminal acts", "illegal war" etc, when in fact no law has been broken, it's just that their emotions tell them it OUGHT to be illegal. Again, a failure to live in the real world.

They use words like "justice", "redistribution of wealth", "Social Justice", "equitable distribution", etc. when what they really mean is "I don't want to work for mine, I think it's JUST if you have to give me yours". They use words like "freedom" when what they really mean is "this is what I think is best for YOU, and that's how it's gonna be!" It's positively Orwellian, and I've all but quit sparring with them, because I fear they can NEVER be educated.

There are lots of other words one can use to recognize these types. Maybe I'll put a list together one day of recognition prowords for the various "-ists". The words haven't changed since the days of Mao, Stalin, Che, Fidel, and Jane Fonda. Some even go all the way back to Marx and Engels themselves.

Now when I see folks from all parts of Europe saying those same things to me, levelling the same charges, USING THE SAME TERMINOLOGY, I get a bit testy, and it's generally on. I don't hate Europeans, but I have an intense dislike for SOME of them, same as I feel about SOME alleged Americans. Not all by any means.

Nope, I don't really hold past misbehaviors against them either. That was long ago, and all the participants are dead now. And to be honest, as bears on this thread, most have been too busy being all manner of defensive to try figuring out what as being spelled out by bringing history into it.

I didn't really get my dander up at "Europeans" until a FEW who came here started using the same attacks, the same WORDS even in many cases, as their American counterparts, with about as much chance of defense against cold, hard logic.

I don't dislike Europeans (well, maybe the French ones a little ) I dislike the odious and unworkable ideologies I see espoused, and I know there are always several Europeans that can be counted on to throw them out there, just as there are several Americans who do the same. I just can't quite understand it coming from the Europeans, since they lived a bit closer to some of the actual (un)working models.

And another point that bears on your post - the Nazi's were no different. They were just another one of these -isms that didn't work the way it said on paper, and lots of folks died because of that. So yeah, Nazis get lumped right in with Socialists, Communists, Marxists, Bolshevists, Stalinists, and all the rest.

ALL of those "-isms" have FAILED, and are completely unworkable in the real world. Let them rest in peace.


[edit on 2009/10/23 by nenothtu]

reply to post by Kokatsi

You keep on criticizing Empire without addressing his points relevant to our topic.
It seems that your political beliefs are limiting you - no doubt this is true of many of us, but yours cannot encompass both sides of the debate in this thread - and as soon as you cannot reply in merito, you turn it personal and attack the bearer of the bad news.

Interesting observation, but I must say that I didn't actually state my political views in this thread. In fact, I don't really have a side as I do see both points and I do think each has merit. I have also said that I don't believe the US and it's govt. is or has always done "right" by the people both here and abroad, (I've said this both on this thread and on others).

What I was noting was the predominance to lean towards "group" and "personal" post-bashing and that is what I was pointing out. I don't believe I "attacked" anyone personally, though I may have pointed out the "perception" certain posts were giving off (IMO). If it was taken as an attack, than I am at fault for not being clearer.

I mean, if one is going to criticize [in general sense] the inability of another, or group, to listen to what is being said... the message... then the one doing the criticizing must not be doing the same thing... and let's call that a general statement, directed to the collective and not any one poster. That is my only point, here.

Your presupposition is that emotion clouds logic. This is not true from a psychological point of view. If your emotions are repressed, they tend to suddenly erupt and you lose your head.

No, this isn't my presupposition. Of course emotion may cloud judgment, I'm sure there are many, many examples of that. Emotion can also be the fire behind a movement that affects the changes people want to see... that's a good thing and I'm not saying it's not.

Why don't you write about your emotions concerning the various things brought up here? Such as ... when I read this and this string, I feel like XYZ?

Excellent suggestion and I fully agree. The entire collective may benefit from this point of view in their writings, but it's not easy to do, especially in the moment, but it is worth trying to keep in mind.

Emotions do have a place in patriotism, love and hate etc. Why rationalize? Over-rationalizing can easily turn women into an animus projection - usually a lot more unfair and cold than a real man.

Again, we are in agreement. If my message was that posts and people should be void of emotion, than that was a most definite mis-communication and not at all what I believe.

(I assume you are a woman from your avatar and name, please correct me if I am wrong.)

Your avatar is cool BTW.

Yep and thank you!



[edit on 23-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

I am so glad you got my points...

So - let us write about what we feel - and what we think. Or the other way around. That way it is a clean communication pattern and far more interesting to others than theories.
I agree, BTW, there are too many responses from the "gut level" these days. That is the spirit of the times. All the more intersting if one provides a clean pattern.