An attack on America by Europe

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

That's odd.

I consider myself to be an American nationalist, and an American patriot, and I am part Cherokee, which I take great pride in.

You guys across the pond really don't get it. Do you?

Erm, the poster actually described themselves as "American".

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by TheNetherlands

 

Yeah. We're well aware Europe is a continent, and not a nation.

Well, in that case, can you stop lumping us all together as if we're actually a nation and one body of people?

We fought over there twice, and freed many of those nations.

Yes, you helped. You didn't do it on your own. That's something that you do appear to forget.

We haven't forgotten, trust me.

How the hell is this 'forgetting' meant to work? America hasn't forgotten this , although it forgets and leaves behind it's own baggage, apparently. But then this vague weird 'European' thing is accused of not letting go and forgetting the past and still being divided because of it, but AT THE SAME TIME, accused of trying to forget the past. WHAT?

The whole thing lost it's impetus after accusing the Europeans of the massacre of the Native Indians , only to find out the OP is semi Native Indian and perpetrating those very same crimes brought upon his own people by going out and doing the very same thing to the people of Iraq . The whole perspective of the original poster is that of a one sided agenda, blatant hypocrisy and stunning naivety.

Guys...your belittlement is hilarious....




But it doesnt change the fact that the majority of the world, no matter how wrong you may believe it to be, resent your countries actions...

Cause and Effect its called...

You cause mayhem, chaos and deaths of civilians all over the world, and the effect is everybody hates you......!!

And you havent raised the standard of living in the world...how so??

Sorry, for my outdated 60's rhetoric as well.......it really wasnt some trick bud.....honest.....


As for your Lenin comment.....what are you on about!!??

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Now in 1776 Americans fought against the English Crown and won their right to freedom.

One thing I couldn't resist on noticing and wondering about, do you fight to win your right for freedom? I'm just wondering here, I don't mind if just ignore me lolies

I don't really understand this. All places have "dark pasts", how are they points?
And there's a lot of hypocrisy here. It seems a lot of people just boil over with their anti-European thoughts and finally found a thread for them.
You have no place to complain about haters when you do the exact same.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by centurion1211

 

thanks for that, I could have gone on but what’s the point we all have a dark history, and I get so tired of hearing it from Europeans who think there nations are the greatest and there so tolerant.

Because Americans haven't also made it a common behaviour to state how much greater and tolerant they are?

Originally posted by KissMyBass
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Excellent post S&F.
You know it is always the people that don't have any real power trying to tear down the ones that do. Like the Bible says, Europeans should not point out the splinter in our eye, when they got a log in theirs.

Am I to assume you're saying Europe has no power and America does?
Log versus splinter? Nice way of trying to point a finger at Europe while complaining about a finger being pointed at you.


No one should be making threads or yell about how horrible X place is because they say Y place is horrible.
We ALL have good and bad points, more/less depending on the eye that sees.
There's no reason to create anti-threads.

Okay that's all I can muster to quote as I have classes soon.
Can't say I was expecting these things when I joined this site, I guess I was wrong.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Abintra]

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Abintra]

There is one major difference between what Europe (or others) did & what the USA is doing, and it really winds me up because it is the obvious point that EVERYONE who drones on about iniquities from the past fail to recognise.

A great example are the morons who drone on endlessly about slavery and how the wicked white man exploited "their" people.

The fact is that whatever our ancestors may have done, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with us whatsoever.

We obviously had no influence over what some people did a few Hundred years ago, so to point to Europe and say "your ancestors did this" has as much relevance as you pointing out someone I've never met at the other side of the World doing something bad & saying to me that you've traced back our family trees & found that in 1666 we had a common relative - so therefore his actions today somehow reflect badly on me.

By comparison, what America is doing today is being done by you, your relatives, and your representatives - and you DO have direct influence over that.


Getting back to the point of slavery - of course it was wrong, but if you think about it how stupid is someone today who stands up & moans on about "his" people being exploited by "our" people?

Firstly, the guy doing the moaning has experienced NOTHING - he isn't a slave, it was someone he never knew who died long before he was born.

Similarly the person who owned the slaves was nothing to do with me, he died long before I was born.

In fact if you know your history and look at how ordinary working white people we're exploited by their white masters (for example, Richard Arkwright was thought as a philanthropist because he didn't believe that 5 year old children should be forced to work in the mills amongst the extremely dangerous machinery of the time - he believed that you should wait until they were 6!! - he also wouldn't employ anyone over 40, threw out people crippled by his factory conditions to die on the streets, etc) it becomes clear that it isn't an issue over white people taking advantage of coloured people, it is rich people exploiting ALL people to make money for themselves.

Everything else is just a side show.

The bottom line is that what someone once did to someone else has nothing to do with us no matter how we're connected, but what our contemporaries are doing now in our name IS something to do with us.

That's the difference.

Not sure if anyone posted this yet.. but.. here's the facts on JUST the wars England and the USA have wages in recorded history...

Googles Enland History of War

Googles USA History of Wars

Pretty intresting.. it seems you can type in any country in the world and get the info.. Japan looks pretty docile compared to these two !!!





[edit on 22-10-2009 by Komodo]

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Komodo]

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Komodo]

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Komodo]

reply to post by Abintra


Ohh know, someone with a brain, run you haters.

That is sarcastic sarcasm, if that even exists.

You are right though, Europe nor America have any right to hate each other. What is to gain from hate in the first place? Unless you want to persuade your army to go and start massacring the hated, then you spread hate to make it easy for your army's psyche.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Abintra

 

Ohh know, someone with a brain, run you haters.

That is sarcastic sarcasm, if that even exists.

Are you trying to insult me, or am I reading this wrong? The last part makes me unable to see if it was sarcastic or not.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Abintra]

reply to post by Abintra


Well you're not the only one to feel disappointed. In my European naivete I had no idea we're supposed to hate each other, nor that Americans see us as arrogant, pathetic, ungrateful, etc. This thread is an eye-opener

25 pointless pages later, and I still fail to see why criticism to a nation's actions is seen as "attacks". As a superpower, surely the USA must expect criticism for all over the world, since its actions reflect on us all. But criticism does not equal attack, at least not by my definition.

I noticed a trend here to say the "Europeans just don't get it". I would be glad to admit that I don't get IT, where "it" is Americans' sense of patriotism and nationalism. How could I? I'm not an American nor do I have any wish of becoming one. So there, I will admit I "don't get it", as long as we can put an end to this and agree to disagree, while continuing to be friends.

Originally posted by Abintra


Are you trying to insult me, or am I reading this wrong? The last part makes me unable to see if it was sarcastic or not.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Abintra]

LOL no not an insult, I just agreed with you in regards to all the hate which came spewing due to this thread. The first part of the post was a really retarded sarcasm, if you know what I mean

Everyone's done something bad

However I'm going to back up Britain due to the fact that i'm British.
I'm so proud of my country because of what we have accomplished, we took over 2/3 of the world, we are one hell of a tiny country, and still we took over that much.
We have done some crazy sh*t i know that but hey everyone learns from there mistakes, it's just the fact us compared to america or russia ect we are flippin tiny, but we took over so much, i am so proud of my country.

I have respect for america to and any other countries.
but don't say you are the powerfulist because infact your not no one is the powerfulist anyone could wipe out anyone.

i just want to say 100 percent british and fu**** proud baybii woop!

I find this all a little like a game of, lets point the finger, why? Most of what you are talking is about the past. Can we change it? No, we can only learn from it.

I am from England, and have no problem with the American people, its your goverment that i think is wrong, just like i think the english goverment is wrong. Alway sticking their noses into other countrys affairs for personal gain. the only thing we are guilty of is voting them in in the first place.

If you asked the average man/women, does he want to go to war, he/she would say no.
Please remember that its not the people, its the idiots in power that cause the problems, wheather it be through goverments controling the masses or religion controling the masses.

Dear poedxsoldiervet I've read your thread and consider it poorly thought out and a waste of time and effort. Allow me to elaborate.

You seem to imply that citizens of today’s Europe have forgotten their past, yet the people whom you address had no part, nor had been alive during the majority of the examples you list. Moreover, unless you did your own research on historic facts, chances are you've been spoon-fed them by the educational system of which you, I and most everyone here is a product of. The history I was required to memorize is by no stretch of imagination my own, nor do I believe it to had been correctly deduced, documented or properly conveyed.

Secondly, the whole point of your post is to fend off criticism your country had perceivably been under from other members of this board, failing to acknowledging that:
- criticism could only had been aimed at the countries leadership, which I highly doubt you are a part of,
- had obviously been made by people who are them self not in such a ruling position
- "country" is an abstract concept conceived and enforced by influential like-minded people, whose primary goal is control over resources and constituents

Ultimately as I read your post I get the feeling your feelings got hurt and you decided to invest a little time into googling some history you could use for a counter-attack, completely side-stepping the fact that by doing so you're promoting the sickening idea of division and more classification amongst fellow humans.

Had you been able to look beyond the imaginary boundaries, I would have been genuinely impressed.

Kind regards, M.


[edit on 22-10-2009 by Manawydan]

reply to post by oozyism


I diddnt fight in the Revelotionary War, So that why I said "Their Freedom" I fought In Iraq and Afgan for those people to have freedoms.

I do fight for Americas Freedom, but not from some backwoods clowns. But from Idiots who wish to bankrupt America, and have us crawl to the UN asking for a bailout.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

So basically, you're telling us Europeans can't criticise the States for it's CURRENT bad actions because of bad things Europeans in the PAST?

Do you see why this is ridiculous???

We live in the PRESENT, not the PAST...at least most of us

oh dear, as a european who's fairly vocal about my views i'm sure i've contributed to your rage -sorry mate.

You gotta understand that Europe has been around for a real long time, we've got complex political and social sensibilitys which a developing nation like america simply hasn't had the time to develop. I'm not trying to say that europe is more advanced or anything of the sort, simply that our cultral traditions are more 'complex' than yours - now don't get me wrong; i watch your telly, observe your politics, radio, internets, music, etc, etc because some really great stuff has come from america and i truly respect and like the american nation.

That said, many of my favourite people from america suffer greatly the injustice of the modern world - everyone from Billie Holiday, Charlie Parker, Hunter S Thompson, Bill Hicks, etc, etc, etc - you do not live in a perfect nation. I live in a protofashist courporate monachy i'm not saying i'm any better off than you, i'm no more or less polite about the system i live under.

The system in america is of course a continuation of christendom or 'the european empire' now called the western empire, much to the annoyance of australia... Whatever anyone says or however much we may try to deny it europe and america are closely entwined - like old friends with more than a few old quarrals and debts remembered, it feels like we have to say something when we think you're slipping into err -because we love you, even if we don't always like you

Think of it like this, most american 'patriots' (nationalists) will tell you that Muslims should be speaking out against the terror attacks - even though one side is sunny and the other shia, even though one side is arab the other oriental, even though one side is at war with the other. Yet you don't think that english people have the right to speak out against our friends, our alies, our former colony?

You delve deep into history and thats a good thing, we must always remember history and try to learn from it - but never, never hang onto it - it'll drag you away -nothing can slow it's tireless conveyer belt. Whatever happened in the past has happened, the only thing we can change is the future and the only way we can do it is by doing the best was can in the present.

America has massive power and influence, mostly because rich europeans moved their banking enterprises over to the new world as europe began to fracture towards the end of the 19th century - it has scientific excellence, mostly because its a continuation of the scientific enlightenment began in europe - it has some degree of culture, although disney usaly buys anything good from the counter-culture covers it in plastic and inserts a prowar progreed fantasy induceing delusion in place of the original honest truth which made it worthwhile in the first place.

It pains me to admit it but in many respects modern america is better than modern europe! of course most americans are too fat to get to the libary to borrow a book they would be too dumb to read and so will never understand exactly what they're saying when they repeat their 'i want guns not healthcare' mantra so it goes both ways....

Personally i love it when american comedians talk about british people, never taken offence once (lol he's so right i DO have bad teeth!) nor have i when other nations attack us for our misdeeds - i'm glad they do and i hope someone listens and it helps to steer us back onto a better course.

I want to do my bit to help those suffering the oppressions of the system where ever i can in the world, i want to make help people to think of all sides of an issue and choose the best option, i want to make sure that the world i will have to live in for atleast 50 more years will be a good, honest and stable one. We can't let crazy TV Evangelical exstreamists hijack the democracys flagship nation, we can't let good people down and we can't ignore people doing wrong; whoever they are or whyever they do it.

in short, only people who know they're in the wrong say 'mind your own business' and no i won't - because i love you.

Europe and the United States are supposed to hate each other? When did that happen? I must have missed the memo somehow...

Over the years, some of my best friends were, and are, from Europe. Many places in Europe.

I certainly don't hate Europe, or even Europeans , I may disagree with their attitudes towards my country...but that's why I'm here, to attempt to alter their perceptions of me and my country.

I just wanted to respond to the comment of Americans not having baggage. Why on earth do you celibate the 4th of July if you have no baggage, or if you have left all your baggage behind!

Given that the reasons for revolution where some brutally fought for rights.. the right not to be taxed without representation and the right to revolution spring to mind. The point seems to be missed as to what lays behind those rights. The bloodshed that gave rise to those rights took place on what would be considered in this debate to be European soil and is therefore part of that European baggage being discussed while it can also be said to be America baggage.

So what would have happened if those rights had never existed in the first place or if the rights of Englishmen had been extended to the New world? OK so that's hypothetical and we'll never know, but it is a point to ponder.. Still those rights, that baggage is now part of the foundation of America as much they are my part of my past.

Take someone like Thomas Paine who began his political life in a small, radical and independently minded English town... I could wonder to myself, would he have written his famous pamphlets if none of this baggage existed? his pamphlets are linked to two revolutions, one in Europe and one in the New World.

In my opinion baggage can be good, it helps us learn to not make the same mistakes or build on past successes (not that we always take notice) take me, my family and friends on the South Coast, we still have some of the largest bonfire night celebrations in England. Thomas Paine would have experienced the riots that took place in Lewes every bonfire night, the independent nature of the people and their views would have been a factor in shaping his views. Views which still continue to this day in this part of the world.

The bonfire, even now, is freedom of expression.. it reminds us that governments and religion are dangerous. So the chances of us ending up in Dhimitude as some have suggested in this thread are quite laughable.. But you have a right to your views.. and while I do respect that, my views that won't happen are based on what I see in my every day life, which I hope you will respect.

So locally along with burning effigies of the pope we also burn effigies of the "enemies of the bonfire" which have included Bush & Condi and last year included Darling and Obama , effigies of Bin Laden, plenty of prime ministers including Gordon Brown, The transport police (represented as pigs) the BBC, and many other have also been burnt.

Idea of the scale of some of the effigies

Here's a one of Palin and Obama from Battles bonfire boyes

You may feel that burning effigies of Bush or Obama is wrong, again that is your right... but it certainly isn't anti-American, it wouldn't be an attack on America by Europe either.. it is our freedom of expression which may not be politically correct, but then again rolling barrels of burning tar down the high street and throwing fireworks around in a crowd of 50,000 isn't particularly safe either :-) but both are a lot of fun ;-)

I am sure other areas of the UK, Europe and America are as independently minded as we are and just as shaped by whatever baggage they have as we are shaped by our baggage.

Last year we floated the Lewes pound and guess who's face is on the notes? That's right, Thomas Paine, who is, and will always be part of both our pasts, he is baggage we both have, and to be honest I don't feel that a bad thing.