The EU conspiracy. Wake up ATS!

Originally posted by Yossarian

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by Yossarian

 

The first time around, the result was a resounding NO.

If I recall the Irsh are the only EU nation where the PEOPLE have a direct vote. Thanl goodness for that.

And yes the US citizens need to pay more attention to the EU especially since Bush signed an agreement to "harmonize" (make the same as ) US laws with the EU. Also the FDA sent out a memo about how it was necessary to "harmonize" US laws.

I really hate these quiet agreements to setup a world government behind the backs of the citizens of each country

Of course, but what do you think of a repeat referendum (without any change in the content of the treaty) as the first result was not what the EU or the Irish government wanted?

I believe they wanted to test the peoples reaction to the legislation, when the Irish voted NO it did shake them up, but I bet this time NO MATTER how many vote NO , the bill will pass , and all TPTB have to say is , " more people voted YES this time around".., as the 'voting' will be rigged.

reply to post by THELONIO

Illegal immigrants cannot vote (I think), so they do not affect the policies of the country to which they immigrated, in this case the UK.

reply to post by Cythraul


Thats true, I suppose all we can do is wait and hope that it will not be a corrupt dictatorship when it is completely formed.

reply to post by Dermo

If it turns out to be a dictatorship then I hope it's a corrupt one, a well organised, not corrupt dictatorship is very hard to fight.

well im in the mood for some insurrection if this goes yes this time......anyone else?!?!?!

reply to post by Turtledub

That's your definition of democracy?

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by A52FWY

 

Yes, persons from any member state that has joined the EU to date can move freely, live, work, avail of social schemes etc in any other state, Spain has brought in some new laws to curb immigration. Any future member states towards the East will not be able to avail of the freedom of employment laws in other member states until they are of sufficient economic development.

Thank you for your input. Change of this magnitude is both difficult to understand and to undergo. As I recall from my college classes (poli-sci major), the EU was formed with the ultimate goal of regional harmony through the upgrading of Union members' infrastructures and to gain a competitive trading edge against the US and China. The benevolence of the more established countries - France, Germany, UK, etc. - in funding a disproportionate amount to create/improve the infrastructures of the newer members (Eastern Block countries, for example) is exemplary. I do not mean to say that the changes and the investment gambles aren't without risk - the US is well aware of the effects of mass immigration (legal and illegal) and the cost of "nation building" (see America's investment in the South after the Civil War, post WWII Japan, Vietnam, Iraq...). Nevertheless, the long term payoff should justify the financial gamble and the changes required.

If you look at it this way, the US is helping the EU and the West with security issues and by waging resource wars until the EU army is strong enough to be able to take over at least half of the load. Then roles will be reversed while the EU military helps the US while the US recoups the money it has spent on war.

The EU and US will always be a partnership, simple as.

I completely agree with you here regarding the partnership between the US and the EU, though we will continue to be competing against each other for markets (nature of capitalism). Despite the multitude of issues raised by the US acting as the world police (undeniably with mixed results) - the freedom from tyranny and oppression for all peoples in this world stands a better chance with another super power in play. The US needs to be challenged when we are off track (Iraq); and the US will need help in facing potential future challenges from rouge countries/alliances. In a perfect world, North Korea undergoes a regime change with the passing of Kim Jong Il; Syria and Iran come to the peace table; and China's resurgence culminates in a nation founded upon democratic principles. However, we do not live in a perfect world.

Imperialism and oppression are the enemies, freedom and democracy are the solutions. However, majority rule is not without problems for those in the minority... Does the EU ultimately enhance the freedoms and liberties of it's members? Will it lead to an improved quality of life for it's members? I believe it will. Despite all of our shortcomings, our United States have demonstrated what can be accomplished though a few hundred million people working to maintain the principles of democracy.



[edit on 22/8/09 by Dermo]

What i find interesting about most of the (considered) posts in this thread (forget the American Red necks and the Euro Sceptics posts of course!) AND the Post directly above this one, is I think, the fear by other Continents 'superpowers' on the Planet of what the EU COULD be.

The EU is not evil and corrupt.

It is simply too large, currently woefully inefficient and administered by Staff who are sometimes stupid and short sighted.

I think that pretty much sums up most governments and their Civili, non-political Staff does it not?!

Anyway, lets get back to this Fear question shall we?

Yes, Germany is part of the EU.

Yes, a German Government some 60 years ago committed some awful things on it's peoples and peoples of Europe (not Americans I hasten to add there...)

The country paid the price - BIGTIME.

BUT, if the EU could get it's act togethor, both Economically and Millitarilly, it would be a force to rival that of the US, Russia and China.

In Fact, I wonder if the term Superpower would be appropriate should the EU really get it's act togethor?

THESE are the 2 issues that cause the fear of the EU.

If we ever DID become truly one Union then it would be interesting to see what would happen on the world stage then eh??

I doubt we would be embroilled in a set of fake Wars in the Middle East just to placate the US and it's ill defined policies, cobbled togethor after 9/11, to try to 'fight' terrorism! (BTW - caught Ol'Bin Laden yet - DIG-DIG!!! HEHE!)

Think on it if you have half a brain....

reply to post by crichton13


You think the middle eastern issue is only to do with America? europe is just as complicit.The infamous anglo-american relationship being more prevalent of course.And europe is corrupt to the bone,like washington brussels is overrun by lobbyists/special interest groups.I like the idea of europe,i don't like its current form though at all.Don't like my corrupt country either...

Originally posted by Cythraul
...Depends on your perspective. We didn't want to be bullied into accepting the Euro, and so we have suffered as a result. Some might call that stubborn, others would see it as a righteous resistance of tyrannical bullying. Is the Pound's relation to the Euro deliberately manipulated by those who would benefit from a European Union? I and others believe so.

The UK was never "bullied" into anything. Instead, no country has been given so many special deals and exceptions as the UK, despite it running a consistent blockade politic. In the mid of a stable economic upturn and facing a population lost in delusions of past glory, the UK did not fight a righteous battle against "tyranny", it believed it could continue its faith in british exceptionalism.

Well, it didn´t pay off too long. The economic woes of the UK are ENTIRELY homebrewn; relying on a FIRE economy and suffering a line of governments supporting it has caused this country to crash so badly. And since the Pound lived on hot air like the rest of the fantastically inflated finance market, it went down with it.

Blaming "the EU" now is just another chapter on a long list of british self-victimization, of which certain people seem to have grown a bit too fond of.

And the primary argument I've heard from most EU sceptics concerns sovereignty rather than economic weakening. I'd rather live in a poor Britain that controls itself than a wealthy one that has lost its sovereignty and identity*. That's the true measure of patriotism. I won't sell my country out and neither will millions of other Euro-sceptics.

Ah, the identity and culture argument, a favorite of self-proclaimed EU-sceptics. Sadly, it is a non sequitur. There is simply no reason, precedent or historical parallel whatsoever to claim that national identity is at risk by growing EU integration. National identity, culture and tradition is in no meaningful way affected by policy.

Originally posted by A52FWY
I have some general questions. Can you move to any member state you want to live in?

Yes, you can. (And many do.)

If you can move at will, then you have to start looking at health care uniformity, education uniformity etc.

There is certain uniformity being pursued and enforced (albeit usually with consideration of each countries' peculiarities, in areas that depend heavily on national "identity" and tradition), including education, which is - the so-called "Bologna agreement", that is - one of the most controversial innovations in the union. (But nobody ever said the EU was perfect.)

If you don't like other nationalities, it's not going to work very well. If the Irish hate British rule, why would they embrace the EU?

While certain "abstract" animosities - more on the level of local "folklore", known to every society in the world - may exist, I would be truly astonished to find a EU nation who HATED another nation. I am sure there are such individuals: such fearful and mostly ignorant people exist in all countries.
But why be bothered about them?

BTW, the Irish went from one of the poorest countries in Europe to one of the richest after joining the EU. I think that should override any abiding animosity towards any other nation they might have harboured.











[edit on 24-8-2009 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by jimmyx
from a california, USA view, it appears you people in europe have to worry more about the growing muslim populations in your countries. when a particular orthodoxy tends to worship at the "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" alter of social living, which is completely different from the way most europeans live now, the "threat of a unified europe" seems to take a back seat...

Has it occurred to you that you may be a victim of the very propoganda that we all on ATS strive to deny?

There is no problem of growing muslim populations. Nor my way or the highway. The populations of all of the world's religions are manipulated by those at their head. What's the best way to get a United Unified Europe? Make every one believe the muslims are coming!

Deny Ignorance

Originally posted by Lonestar24
The UK was never "bullied" into anything.

But did the people get a vote on it? And don't give me that rubbish about being given the vote indirectly by having the freedom to elect our representatives. All three major parties are, and have long been fundamentally pro-EU. So there's essentially been no option on the matter.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
There is simply no reason, precedent or historical parallel whatsoever to claim that national identity is at risk by growing EU integration. National identity, culture and tradition is in no meaningful way affected by policy.

How about the posted workers directive, which undermines British control over immigration? How about the various human rights obligations which prevent Britain from repatriating anyone who throws their arms up in the air and cries "asylum"? National identity, more than anything else, IS the people within a country, not the developed values of a country. By subjecting EU nations to mass immigration, the identity is inevitably being altered.

Originally posted by sharps
There is no problem of growing muslim populations.

Er, where do you live? I can assure you you're wrong, with regards to the UK at least. Muslim birthrates are roughly three times that of the native population, some areas of my country are no-go areas for non-Muslims, and immigration from the Muslim world continues at high rates. In addition, the influence of Islam exceeds the proportion of actual Muslims. I could provide you evidence to show that the Establishment are actually playing down the growth of Islam here, if you like.

Originally posted by Vanitas
BTW, the Irish went from one of the poorest countries in Europe to one of the richest after joining the EU. I think that should override any abiding animosity towards any other nation they might have harboured.

I don't think the previous dislike of a rule that included mass ethnic cleansing falls under the category of "Animosity" towards the UK. Any hard feelings that are left over in situation is usually there because of a lack of a wider perspective. Also, that history and mindset has absolutely nothing to do with any gains that befell Ireland after its joining of the EEC.

Also, the "Grants" that Ireland received from the EEC were paid back with Interest and Ireland became that wealthy because of an extremely open market, an pro corporation taxation policy and education policies that boosted the workforce. Yes, the joining of the EU was the catalyst for it all but there's obviously a lot more to it.

I just had to clear that up

I finally read through this, interesting discussion.

Most Americans see Europe as our strongest ally, except for a vocal group of hate mongers who don't even like their fellow Americans. No, they wouldn't be rednecks, day traders more likely.

It makes sense for Europe to unite in some ways, but If I were European, I would demand that national borders remain, and the ability to opt out at any time.

The idea of a common currency, and other standards, including a basic standard of rights is a good thing to have. How to maintain those rights is the hardest part. It does look like the corporations are running the whole thing, and they are the people to watch out for.

Immigration is a sticky point, and the EU would be very well advised not to allow Turkey into the club. As the oil in the Middle East runs out, there will be a great many desperate people in the Middle East.

Everyone keeps thinking China is going to take over the world. Not until they change their government. Right now China is a disaster in the making, and India will never become anything until they get rid of their caste system.

As my 90 year old grandmother said to me the other day, "Muslims? They've been around for years only we called them Arabs. When did all Arabs become terrorists?". Puts it nicely.

reply to post by poet1b

The borders remain borders, people that are not EU citizens still have to show their passports when moving through the Portugal-Spain border, for example.

Even the Schengen agreement can be temporarily suspended by any country, they usually do that during G8 meetings, for example, to force all people to show their passports as it was before that country entered the Schengen area.

PS: for those that do not know it, the Schengen agreement was the responsible the reduction of border control between member states. Three countries that are not part of the EU are also part of the Schengen area, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland .

Originally posted by ArMaP
The borders remain borders, people that are not EU citizens still have to show their passports when moving through the Portugal-Spain border, for example.

No
At a border between two Schengen Area members, there are usually no passport controls regardless of being a EU citizen or not. However, ID checks can still be performed anytime and they are sometimes done on former border checkpoints. At anytime, you must have an ID card or a passport if you are a Schengen Area member citizen or a passport if you are not.
I have crossed the Portugal/Spain border many times and it's usually a drive through, no one stops anymore.
There is this motorway that connects Belgium and Germany through Luxembourg, there is not even a sign post indicating when you leave or enter another country !

reply to post by ArMaP


they are not all illegal, there have been plenty of migrants to this country who will eventually have the vote and then england will be lost, whilst i have no problem with migrants, the effects of the quantity of people who have come to these shores has already had a very detremental effect on the english economy and wage structure, i look at australia with its size incomparison to england, they have a population of 18 million and england (uk) 65 million, we are grossly overcrowded