The EU conspiracy. Wake up ATS!

reply to post by jimmyx


Ha!

"Your county"?

You really have lost the plot. What you still cannot see (it seems) is that we are all in this together. We might live in different lands, but ultimately it will be the whole planet under the jackboot of the NWO unless we become united in doing something about it.

I for one pity the fools that cannot see this.

reply to post by obilesk


That works both ways, Americans give a lot of abuse online and in general to everyone else. There's no point in complaining about it because it will never end.

You lot call us 'whiney socialist europeans' and we call you lot 'stupid greedy americans', that's probably the only difference between us. If you take offense to it, maybe you ought to thicken your skin because it's not exactly insulting.

Also, it's American foreign policy and empire that people hate about the USA, not it's people. Everything else are simply cultural differences.

Originally posted by Manouche
The EU is neither a democracy or a republic, it's a supranational organisation. The EU is not a state.

Until the Lisbon treaty is ratified by all states, then the EU is a country (almost a republic) in a bureaucratic sense. Similar to the USA after their civil war.

It will take a few years of subtle EU propaganda for the citizens of the various member states to accept that it has happened but there is no point in fooling yourself.

What does it take to be a country? Because after the Lisbon treaty the EU will have a constitution, a foreign office and president to go along with its common currency, common market and economy, army, flag, anthem, freedom of movement and employment policy, central bank, elected parliament etc.

Originally posted by DarkSecret

Originally posted by Advancedboy
Interestingly why did germany join EU. ....

the germans did NOT vote to join the EU. most of my german friends were against it and in 2002 when the Euro started its official life they got pay cuts of almost 50% (2000 DM = 1000 EUR at that time) but all the prices were just switched from DM to EUR (10 DM = 10 EUR). it's not fun to see your pockets half empty overnight!

their lawmakers decided for the whole country to not put it up for a vote because Germany was and still is Europe's engine and without it there would be no euro or EU. they knew the german people would say NO so they didn't even go there.

There is much more to say in this thread then one line, but I read a lot of the comments, and what really frightens me, is the repeated false information. And you are adding even more. The fact is that most Germans wanted the EU. The Euro was not as popular there as the in the rest of Europe, because they already had a strong currency. But their currency was not sold out to the Euro (as the Dutch guilder was). They got value for their Mark. Another false statement in your comment was that the prices doubled because what was sold for 1 Mark was now sold for 1 Euro. That is a lie. Easy to proof. Just check the facts.

There is much to complain about big govermental structures, but do not spread lies to get ahead in the conversation.

There is also much gain form the EU:
Drinkable water in every region, safer roads, more stringent environment rules. More nature parks.
Little villages/regions recieve money to restore historic centers
Local economies trhive again /or national economies (ireland is in trouble now I hear, but received a lot of benefits in the past, they were the richest country in the EU for a while)
No more war in Europe.
Fighting monopolies and such (like Microsoft)

Some talk of the biggest army, but thats a laugh. There is no Eu army to talk off. And if there was they couldn't decide where to go. That is one of their big problems and dependency on the NATO.

There will NOT be one leader in the EU and it will never be a nation.

If you fear big governmental structures, the real problem lies in international companies/world banking/WHO/and NATO (SHAPE). Why? Because they are the real stakeholders in power and they decide what will be police and what not. Sole nations in Europe do not stand a chance against these Mologs. Only international cooperation will.

my 2 cents


[edit on 23-8-2009 by Pjotr]

reply to post by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire

Even if the Europian Union is apparently a NWO, is it really a bad thing?

The problem with the EU is the disconnect between those who are ruled and the rulers. At least in the USA we have the option of "Voting the B@$T@D$ out" If enough people wake up we may even see the rise of a third party that is not bought and paid for by the elite. In the EU the people ruled have little or no say in what is happening, heck from the comments here you do not even know what is being discussed! In effect it is a modified dictartorship, modified so the sheeple are under the illusion it is not.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
lol a fourth reich?

You guys are crazy!!!

I'm sure that's what the Latvians said whilst the Soviet Union was quietly emerging. Or is history something that only happens to the people of the past?

Originally posted by Vanitas
Maybe it's because the subject does not belong on a conspiracy forum?

I'm going to assume you're joking here. One of the single most important conspiracy subjects is the new world order, whether you personally believe in it, don't, are for it or against it. Agreed? Now tell me - does the European Union contribute to global governance or is it to its detriment?

Originally posted by Vanitas
but the FACT is, the union is long proven to be a boon in more than one vital area (education, preservation of vital national heritage, including many minoritary languages - that would have been LOST without the EU-imposed standards of protection, etc.).

Did you make this up? Do you seriously think education standards in the UK are better now than 50 years ago? Do you seriously think we put more importance in our national heritage now than 50 years ago? I don't know about the other European countries, but I know for a fact that Britain was better preserved before the EU.


Honestly... I can't believe how much ATS has gone downhill. Maybe this is why, subconsciously, I post less than I used to. It's now commonplace to have people belittle those who believe in a new world order. I'm all for opposite sides to the story but this IS a conspiracy site. We're supposed to be denying ignorance, not towing the mainstream mindset.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
At least in the USA we have the option of "Voting the B@$T@D$ out"

Really? How does that work?

In effect it is a modified dictartorship, modified so the sheeple are under the illusion it is not.

As someone that lived under a real dictatorship, I guarantee you that it's not the same thing.

Sad to say that I am one of the Yanks that had no clue about some of this stuff and for one am grateful for the opportunity to be informed.

Part 3 of the series was the one that really floored me! My god they are doing away with double jeopardy! You must prove your innocence, and no more jury trials! From all that I understand Britain is the foundation of a fair legal system, and it sounds like it is going down the tubes.

I have the same question as another poster, what has happened with all this since the making of that video? It was made 5 years ago and I really would like some more info or perhaps a link to it.

One other thing, how the hell can a MEP be told how to vote?????? It seems to me this is as far from any sort of democratic process as it could get.

Originally posted by wayno

What if the people just kept saying NO!

vote fraud? expulsion & isolation? i guess they wouldn't allow that to happen, because it would serve as a precedent, for their neighbours especially.

reply to post by Dermo


The Lisbon Treaty is different from the former Constitution Treaty. It's not a constitution as such. The Lisbon Treaty modifies the EU Treaty and the EEC Treaty. It will possibly lead to a formal constitution very soon and the people won't be asked for their opinion. The political fight is not over though.
Anyway, is a formal constitution required for TPTB to achieve their goals ? The Maastricht and Amsterdam Treaties already act as constitutions. They transfer part of the members sovereignty on the EU institutions. Although those institutions are controlled by members, they don't have a direct, straightforward say on the EU legal competence field.

Some questions around the EU are only emotional.
A constitution ? Any document which defines who rules on what can be called a constitution. We already have these treaties. No need to drama.
Legally, the EU will remain a supranational organisation, not a state, not a republic. Anyway, it's only emotional. What is relevant is who rules over your life and makes the Law. What's a country ? Flag ? Anathem ? In the UNITED Kingdom, are Scotland and Wales countries ? Is Catalunya a country ? You don't need to be an independant country to have a strong cultural identity. I believe some feel, say being Texan before being American. What is relevant is who rules.

Not to enter into details, the Lisbon Treaty extends the power of some of the EU institutions to solve functioning problems. Indeed, there are functioning problems with the huge number of members now. But the European Parliament powers, the sole institution we directly vote for, are not counter-balancing the power gain of the Commission or the Council. The Parliament never had much power, I think the European people accepted that as a fact for practical reasons in order for the European Construction to progress. Now too many issues can be dealed by the EU outside of national sovereignties with the Lisbon Treaty, we need the Parliament to be as strong as the Commission and the Council and be able to dismiss them in the name of the electors. The executive, legislative and judiciary powers must remain separate or it leads to Tyranny.

That is the core problem, not the loss of cultural identity or whatever, will we, the people, still have control over the political institutions ? Quoting Montesquieu, the people shall remain the only and ultimate source of power. All the rest is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Pjotr
Some talk of the biggest army, but thats a laugh. There is no Eu army to talk off. And if there was they couldn't decide where to go. That is one of their big problems and dependency on the NATO.

Thats fair enough, I don't think anyone was saying the EU has a massive army.

BUT..

The plan is there for a 2.2 million soldier common EU army by 2030/40.

Thats an obvious move for the security of the west. There's no point in fooling yourself and trying to argue that this will never happen. Look how much has happened in the EU over the past decade..

Imagine what it will be in 20 years.

Once the EU is sovereign and has consolidated centralized power, it will begin to beef up its "Security".. that will lead to a special agreement with the USA and then movement to secure the common interests of the "West".

Its an obvious future but I don't buy any of that totalitarianism bulls**t.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Obviously, my friend, you don't have the slightest clue what is the EU and how it works. You may not be completely wrong in your comments but you throw them in on no educated grounds.
Look into it and you may find it's fairly close to your state and federal laws.

You might review the book 1984. Three regions of the world in perpetual conflict. Usually two against one. Perpetual distraction, perpetual false causes. You could say the same think for the asian world. Gradually one region will be the common cause as the North American Union is being attempted for North then North/South America.

reply to post by Manouche


Thats not entirely correct, while a small number of things have been changed, even the EU commission have admitted that this is pretty much the same document as the EU constitution that was already rejected.
All this was explained to us in Ireland through independent commission booklets that were sent to every household during the last referendum before the canvassing started. The more I looked into it, the more obvious it was that the EU had simply changed the name & legal aspects from 'constitution' to 'treaty' in order to bypass the referenda laws in most member states & slightly changed certain aspects so they don't trigger the legal barriers that are in place to protect the constitutional/federal legal systems of the specific countries.

Yes, the EU is a supranational institution but it will also be a country in a bureaucratic and political sense.. how do YOU define a country? Constitution? President? Common currency? Common political ideology? Common market? Common economic policy? Common Army? Parliament? etc because the EU will have all of those once Lisbon goes through.

One of the main points I am pushing here is that it will be viewed as such from an external perspective. I know We will lose our identity as Irish/Spanish/French etc and become European to anyone who isn't from the EU. I understand that most Europeans (including myself at one time) don't want to admit what is happening but when you step back and look.. it is perfectly clear and I have simply accepted it. The EU will slowly erode our sovereignty and parliamentary powers until we are simply "states" under the common legal and political framework that is the EU.

Anyway, obviously our points of perspective on the end product are different but we still have the same basic understanding

[edit on 23/8/09 by Dermo]

And once you are there, there is no going back. Once you've lost your national/cultural identity its gone for good, short of some sort of revolution to try and extract yourself out from the union.
The chances of that happening are nil.
Face it. The various countries that made up Europe will soon be but fading memories.

reply to post by wayno

Considering how the different cultures remain in the small communities from a country that we can see inside other countries, I don't think that the cultural identity will be lost.

To Dermo:
Maybe it's better if we stop using the word "country" and start using "sovereign nation", that may be more correct in this context.

reply to post by Dermo


That's what I meant, I realise I was not clear. Many political figures publicly admitted it was the same thing with the removal of the sensitive wording. To me, it's not really important. It's debatable we already have a constitution.

I believe anyone has his own perspective on what defines a country so I concede you can see the EU as a country. But the EU won't be a state legally. Anyway, to me, it's not really important either.

Identity is subjective. Do you feel a European identity ? Aren't we sometimes refered to as Europeans already ? Do you feel your human identity ?
France is the union of Burgondy, Brittany, Aquitaine, etc... Italy is the union of Venice, Sicily, Genoa, etc... Germany is the union of Bavaria, Prussia, Baden, etc... All have and had their own identity. And almost all were at one point unified in the Roman Empire or later Charlemagne's Empire.
The political system and organisation evolves through history. It's not what harms cultural identities.

reply to post by Dermo


I was not so much complaining as pointing out a fact. And I guess you missed the disclaimer paragraph in which I clarified that I was referring to personal nationalistic attacks and not negative opinions of our government (aka foreign policies) - opinions that I happen to agree with much of the time. If Europeans want more average Americans to care about their problems, aside from the ones that directly impact them, maybe helping to create a culture of commonality would be a start. And a few more Americans doing the same would help too. But alas, there are too many Americans that hate Europeans and too many Europeans that hate Americans. Humans are so predictable.

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reply to post by obilesk


You are wrong many Europeans hate Americans. It's a stereotype really. We certainly don't understand each other but hate ? No.
Now if you are talking about the American government, that's another matter.

Originally posted by Manouche
France is the union of Burgondy, Brittany, Aquitaine, etc... Italy is the union of Venice, Sicily, Genoa, etc... Germany is the union of Bavaria, Prussia, Baden, etc... All have and had their own identity. And almost all were at one point unified in the Roman Empire or later Charlemagne's Empire.

Portugal is much smaller and there is a very marked difference between all its regions, people from Porto have a great cultural difference when compared with people from Lisbon or the Algarve.

The north of Portugal and the area on the other side of the border (Galicia) feel more like one large region than part of two countries.

So, if all these centuries the people kept their cultural independence despite the several political rearrangements, I don't think that will disappear just because there is a new, invisible entity called "EU".