The EU conspiracy. Wake up ATS!

Originally posted by wayno
And once you are there, there is no going back. Once you've lost your national/cultural identity its gone for good, short of some sort of revolution to try and extract yourself out from the union.
The chances of that happening are nil.
Face it. The various countries that made up Europe will soon be but fading memories.

This, I have noticed before, is the core point that some Americans cannot seem to grasp (and I really not blaming anyone here): the EU is nothing like the USA in terms of a single, unified identity. Its very ORIGINS are totally different.

(LATER EDIT: This thread illustrates my point very well.)

Not only it would be impossible to create such an amalgam, but nobody in their right mind would even think of proposing it. For one thing, there are WAAAY too many languages: and a language, you know, is much more than just WORDS. It's a deeply ingrained mentality.

Just like the strength of the USA depends on its unitary identity, the (future) strength of the EU depends on the preservation of its diversity.

(An already observable consequence of this mindset is the revival of "minoritary" languages - such as Breton, to name just one among many, MANY examples - which were previously depending on the local laws of their countries - an those laws were often aimed AGAINST the preservation of languages and culture perceived as a threat to the artificially imposed cultural - and thus political - "unity" of the country. And this is putting it mildly!

In the EU, such threats have been overrun by the EU laws which not only guarantee the survival and development of "minoritary" cultures on paper, but boost it with funding and other sources of material help.

This invaluable living heritage may not seem much to those who are used to living in a culturally unified entity - and I am not talking solely about the USA, not at all - but they surely mean a lot to the members of those communities and to anyone who cherishes cultural and intellectual diversity.)

Identity is subjective. Do you feel a European identity ? Aren't we sometimes refered to as Europeans already ? Do you feel your human identity ?
France is the union of Burgondy, Brittany, Aquitaine, etc... Italy is the union of Venice, Sicily, Genoa, etc... Germany is the union of Bavaria, Prussia, Baden, etc... All have and had their own identity. And almost all were at one point unified in the Roman Empire or later Charlemagne's Empire.
The political system and organisation evolves through history. It's not what harms cultural identities.

Very well said, Manouche.





(LATER EDIT: Another good example to further illustrate this point would be this new thread right here, on ATS. Please, note that I am not giving any opinions on the situation described; but this is exactly the kind of situation that would be unthinkable - and unfeasible - in the EU.)












[edit on 23-8-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Manouche


Some very nice points overall. I have gained a new perspective on the matter

I suppose its not going to really matter when the EU has reached a certain level of power.

reply to post by ArMaP


Sovereign nation it is.


reply to post by obilesk


Nice olive branch

To me, the whole US vs EU thing is similar to the France vs UK thing, its just squabbling over petty cultural and political differences as a past time. It means nothing and could never possibly lead to serious problems. We're basically the same and when it comes down to it and work together - all problems are superficial. But those who actually "hate" for no reason are simply the kind of extremists you find in any society.

George Bush on the other hand.. is an American I actually hate. The majority of you are spot on.. even amusing at times (culturally)

I assume the same goes for us

Well I agree the EU is a bad thing for it to get too big and controlling over nation states.
I'm sick of explaining that, unless you're a doormat, you'll end up seeing your life become a lot more controlled and enslaved.

To those who seem to think that nation states are a thing of the past, guess again. There will be a civil war and unrest before nation states roll over.

History proves that empires (which is what the EU see's itself as) build themselves up like the tower of babel and come crashing down again.

For the americans, think Valley Forge.

The chances are, if what Washington saw was true, the enemy could well be an EU / UN army in the not to distant future...

reply to post by WatchRider

The biggest difference is that empires are (or at least have been) made through force, while this "empire" is an economic empire, in which the countries want to enter instead of resisting being conquered.

So I think it may be considered a voluntary empire.

All we get in the UK is a load of RED TAPE and bull# for being a member of the EU, i cannot think of ONE thing that has changed for the better for me since our country joined.

the money it cost's my country is outrageous! it could be used to do so many good things for us cos as i see it we are up sh%t creek at the moment.we pay 4 million a day to be in this club.and all the time we let more illegal aliens in who take take take off the benefit system.

it stinks.
www.sovereignty.org.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.sovereignty.org.uk...

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
lol a fourth reich?

You guys are crazy!!!

I'm sure that's what the Latvians said whilst the Soviet Union was quietly emerging. Or is history something that only happens to the people of the past?

The Soviet Union quietly emerging?!
The Sovjet Union "got" Latvia as a influence region in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with which Gemany and the Sovjets divided their spheres in 1939. In june 1940 they drove in with the Red Army.
And they got some more after the war as a "buffer or influence region", given by the United states and the Brits and France is something completely different then creating a common market as the EU is.

Yeah, that all just sounds like the EU, were people are BEGGING to be a member. What in heavens do they think they will get. Oh yes, prosperity, savety and freedom, and influence in worldly matters, that will do it.

I am just as cautious in giving too much power to small or elite groups, but as I said this thread is barking up the wrong tree.

Policy is being made by the moneymakers, the banks/lawyers/and industrialists and their secret services. Politicians are just the middlemen. And there are lots of white hats there, just as there are black hats. To direct our focus on politicians is exactly what the real NWO-ers want. They (politcians) are the dipensable frontmen. You know they go away after a few years.
A lot of people that work for the EU are just the people that are trying to constrict the power behind the scenes. In the solitary countries the PEOPLE had and will have less power over big companies and NATO and the local Mafia then with a cooperative politcal structure.
But off course you have to be on a constant watch for wrong developments and act on them (like the Codex Alimentarius).




[edit on 23-8-2009 by Pjotr]

reply to post by stealthyaroura

That is the biggest problem, when something like the EU, in which the richer countries pay more to compensate for the poor countries, is working, usually the people that pay more do not like it, but those that get the money do, so it may have been a bad business for some countries, but that does not mean that the EU is something intrinsically evil.

And illegal immigrants are not a EU responsibility.

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by Manouche
The EU is neither a democracy or a republic, it's a supranational organisation. The EU is not a state.

Until the Lisbon treaty is ratified by all states, then the EU is a country (almost a republic) in a bureaucratic sense. Similar to the USA after their civil war.

It will take a few years of subtle EU propaganda for the citizens of the various member states to accept that it has happened but there is no point in fooling yourself.

What does it take to be a country? Because after the Lisbon treaty the EU will have a constitution, a foreign office and president to go along with its common currency, common market and economy, army, flag, anthem, freedom of movement and employment policy, central bank, elected parliament etc.

And it is a great country (although there is and will be NO constitution, it is a treaty)!
Finally I can live and work where I want and travel freely and I do not have to travel with bags of diffferent currencies. I am self-employed in a specialized field and I will buy a little cheap house in a sunny region with lots of nature and work through the internet, isn't that cool? I love Europe.
By simplefying rules and the SEPA the EU made this possible , I can do this without loosing all my clients.


[edit on 23-8-2009 by Pjotr]

reply to post by ArMaP


YEAH i know how the EU works out the money and i know that its not responsible for our illegal immigrant issue but i just needed to rant a bit,ya know?

[edit on 23/8/2009 by stealthyaroura]

The EU is a smoke screen. Too many languages to unite, to much ethnic squabbling to ever be 'united'. Even the Irish in their tiny country can't agree on much. Its no differrent in Iraq, take the USA out and they'll still be killing each other as they were before. No unity anywhere.
The EU is not the problem, it's elsewhere if you look with open eyes.

reply to post by stealthyaroura


But you have favorable economic consequences too. You are looking at the expenses without counting the receipts. UK receive aids too.

UK and Ireland have not signed the Schengen Agreement and are not in the Schengen Area. You have all your sovereignty on border controls. The Amsterdam Treaty is an extension of the Schengen Agreement. You have a dispensation called 'opting out'. You have not given up sovereignty to EU on immigration, asylum and border controls. Never. This dispensation will be carried over with the Lisbon Treaty.

We will keep immigration opt-out, says Blunkett

I am sorry it is an old article, I did a quick search and it's the most informative one I could find. As far as I know, UK has still not opted in.

I stand with the UK...

I greatly understand to maintain a strong government in the face of being absorbed and used as a tool. I also strongly think allowing religion so far an inroad into the legal realm.

Although I think in England I would be a conservative ???

IF so, so be it, I frankly understand this cause as it is presented and I hope you can resist subjugation!

reply to post by Dermo


Yes, I fully agree. And I love your beer. And your colloquialisms. I just got done reading "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett, and I have to say that in written form, English humour is great. And I apologize for my ridiculous attempt at an olive branch. I is not soes goods at leetspeak an' textpic.

Anyway, back on topic...

i believe that one of the reasons for the mass imagration into uk is to dilute the opposing factions that are anti europe, after all if the populuation has a big enough percentage of non english they will not care about the preservation of our heritage

reply to post by mental modulator


i think that the lines between political philosophies are now too blurred to be able to differentiate as to which party you may agree with. i think we've been had by all these lousy tow the party line politicians and we are over due a return of power to the people, and never too let politicians rule our lands and lives again, respect

I believe you folks are overlooking Islam and China. Europe may think its powerful - maybe it even is powerful. But there are a billion Muslims out there, all over the world, in countries you never even realized. They are a force to be reckoned with.

The Chinese, too, are another billion people to reckon with. They've got enormous military power, substantial economic power, and are just beginning to come into their strength.

I don't think Europe is anything close to the threat either of these two powers represent.

Originally posted by Pjotr
Yeah, that all just sounds like the EU, were people are BEGGING to be a member.

Even in the poor countries, who are begging to be members, a bit of digging reveals that it's still only the governments seeking EU membership. The public do not want to give away their sovereignty.

And begging? If the UK was so desperate to join the EU, why have we deliberately been refused a vote on it? It is, afterall, probably the single biggest transformation Britain has faced since 1066.

reply to post by chiron613


Europe is only economically powerful at the moment (approx a third of the worlds GDP) but over the next couple of decades will begin working on it's 'defense' forces.

Yes, China will be a very powerful entity by 2050 but that is one of the reasons why the EU is pushing for this army. It will be tight trade agreements between the countries of the west vs Bric nations.

Islam is only a religion, as much as the US would like us to believe they are a dangerous force... Over here we know they integrate when given the chance. Islam in not a economic power and never will. Western life changes muslims.

reply to post by Cythraul


We all know the UK doesn't want to be a part of the UK.

Much of it is the residual attitude left over from controlling an empire so recently. That is pretty obvious from our perspective here in Ireland anyway. But the English have always had a very strong and forceful sense of Identity.

To be perfectly fair though.. while Brits talk about how the EU sucks them dry.. they never mention the amount of Grants and security the EU gives them. The big argument by the Brits against the EU is that the UK is less economically powerful since it has joined but that argument is weak as the period the UK joined the EU (and previous 25 years) was shaky at best in a economic sense. One of the main reasons for the recent loss of clout in the UK is because you lot were too stubborn to accept the EURO and now everything you have is worth a sixth less in the common market. That's definitely going to hurt.

Originally posted by Dermo
One of the main reasons for the recent loss of clout in the UK is because you lot were too stubborn to accept the EURO and now everything you have is worth a sixth less in the common market. That's definitely going to hurt.

Depends on your perspective. We didn't want to be bullied into accepting the Euro, and so we have suffered as a result. Some might call that stubborn, others would see it as a righteous resistance of tyrannical bullying. Is the Pound's relation to the Euro deliberately manipulated by those who would benefit from a European Union? I and others believe so.

And the primary argument I've heard from most EU sceptics concerns sovereignty rather than economic weakening. I'd rather live in a poor Britain that controls itself than a wealthy one that has lost its sovereignty and identity*. That's the true measure of patriotism. I won't sell my country out and neither will millions of other Euro-sceptics.

*Edit to add: particularly as I believe any perceived economic gains from joining the EU are temporary and tactics of deception. In the long run, I don't believe the EU will benefit the UK economically. Any notions about current economic betterment are in all likeliness false fabrications by the international banking elite. Once nations have been enticed into the EU, we'll see the true nature of its economic advantages.

[edit on 24/8/2009 by Cythraul]