I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

reply to post by redhatty

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes. You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

So, do we take it that the fruit and vegetables you eat are free from pesticides and weren't transported half way round the planet ?

Your bacon and sausages are somehow free from sodium nitrate /sodium nitrite ?

Not an ounce of burger/beef you eat has been fed steroids ?

There is no MSG in any of your prepared meals or takeaways ?

Your beer/wine has a clear list of all it's ingredients ?

An alarm goes off should you go through the checkout with a product containing Aspartame or one of a list of millions of E numbers ?

Your preferred mode of transportation does not employ the burning of fossil fuels which you and I immediately breath in ?

The timber in your home came from trees that do not act as lungs for our planet ?

We all seem to be making our selves ill or committing suicide my friend. It would appear that the majority of us, who do it slowly are spared the condemnation that we heap upon others who do it quickly and visibly.

Stupidity is stupidity my friend, is there any point in having levels of it ?

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

The deductions will already be in your taxes. It won't be noticed by 95% of people.

Really?

Yes he made a bad decision. With out this govt care he would be dead? Do you like the sound of that?

As long as he works and puts into the system what do you care?
Do you know if he's working or are you gonna make an assumption that he is not?

I can't afford private insurance either. I work and will put into the system. You gonna cry about that too?

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by VinceP1974

 

Yet you totally ignore the rest of my logical argument.

I even gave you a scripture too, like you asked for.

Yes, you are quite correct I ignored everything following "You just dont get it".

I dont read lectures from statists.

reply to post by VinceP1974

We're 300+ Million unhealthy stubborn people with a limited Federal Govt that is legally prohibited from taking over the sector.

Something the Brits and Aussies can't comprehend. Their state run health care works great when their nation is the size of a New England State. I seriously doubt any European would want their National programs scrapped and have the European Union take over all aspects of medical care........

reply to post by expat2368


Exactly, well said... it's not so much about Reform, which is desperately needed, as it is about "well lets just have the Gov pay for it"

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

If you read the thread friend, almost everyone here agreed that the "idea" of health care assistance in cases where its DESERVED is fine.. but how can you have a system that helps support good folk who fall on hard times, like a mother who gets breast cancer at 30, while not having leaching scum use the system to get high on pain meds?

You can't. The many spoil it for the few unfortunately..

If we have the Government plan the good people that deserve to be helped will get crappy care and high taxes while Mexicans and Degenerates leach the system dry.

Puck, I don't disagree with you, plus I know that you "know" what you're talking about.

Picking between the status quo and any of the proposed bills is like voting in a two party system, namely, deeply unsatisfying.

Yet for me, between two bad choices, I will always chose the one that saves lives. After all, it's not like peeps don't commit insurance fraud either. And who pays for it? We do.

So the argument that gov. hc shouldn't exist in the proposed form because some will abuse it is moot to me.

[edit on 15 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by Pathos

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
A simple question for our conservative, libertarian, anti hc bill friends ...

You are poor, (knock on wood) you become gravely ill, do you take government health care or do you choose to die for your principles?

If you choose the later you are most probably either a liar or will change your mind when the day comes, if you chose the former you are a hypocrite.

I live free with an understanding of my personal responsibilities, which also include the consequences of the choices I make. I will die free.

Since you typed it I will believe you ...

Except ...

What does "personal responsibility" have to do with being 30 and getting breast cancer?

"Let them die" I hear you say.

Social Darwinism is soooo 1940's..

You said there was a choice. Do you die defending your fellow countryman's freedom of choice, or do you make yourself a burden to your fellow countrymen? My personal responsibility it to make sure that my fellow countrymen are free from the burden, which accompanies from people being put on such a system. If I am poor in the first place, I was not being personally responsible for my own well being. As a result of making foolish choices, I will die knowing I was not a burden on my fellow man. I will also die knowing I was the instrument of my own destruction. I will no doubt die free.

If I were to become poor, it would be from making irresponsible choices. Why should my fellow countrymen pay for my illogical behavior? I am individually responsible for my own actions, and I will be held responsible for the consequences that follow. I will die free knowing that I protected the freedoms of my fellow man, and by doing so I will be claiming the consequences that lead to my own demise.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Pathos]

To those of you who make it seem like you are against this just because you don't want to pay for a poor persons health care, you are hurting the cause.

They are using people like you to categorize everyone who is against this bill as greedy Americans. When there are actually legitimate concerns with what's been proposed. Attitudes like that will be what allows them to pass whatever they want. Instead of forcing them to change things, you are only making it easier for them to call anyone who opposes this as heartless.

My suggestion would be to stop calling people names and just tell them what you disagree with. Try to explain what's wrong with it in your opinion. There are plenty of reasons to be against this bill without having to be a heartless greed filled human being. Unfortunately that's how you are coming off in here, whether you mean to or not.

We can't let this pass the way they are trying to frame it but this attitude is not helping.

This is also more proof of how difficult it can be to stay impartial to a situation and avoid the urge to take sides. Remember folks, whether he made a bad decision or not he is still human and it serves no purpose to judge an entire population as 'leeches' if you have not seen both sides. Surely every human being deservers the same standard of health care regardless of their background, social standing or wealth? All of these things are illusion anyway...

No one responded to this...

There are other options than "Do nothing" and "Destroy it with the Government"

Here's a Federal Law I do support

S 1324 - Health Care Freedom Act of 2009


This bill gives a $2,000 annual tax credit for individuals, 5,000 per family to buy their own insurance.

Excludes Illegals

There is a provision which empowers the Govt to pay the insurance company with the tax credit on behalf of the individual at the beginning of the selection of a insurance plan by the individual so that the individual doesn't need the up-front cash.

Health Savings Accounts are still allowed. You cannot buy insurance from them.

Complete Tort System Overhaul

Ease multi-State insurance marketing

Block Grants to States that may have special programs to cover pre-existing condition costs


This is the part I like the best.... how they're going to pay for it:

TITLE IV--FUNDING

SEC. 401. FUNDING PROVISIONS.

(a) Termination of TARP Program- Notwithstanding any provision of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (12 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) or any other provision of law, the Secretary of Treasury may not, on and after the date of enactment of this Act, make any payment or obligation under the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (12 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.). Any funds made available under such Act that have not been obligated shall be rescinded and made available to carry out this Act.

(b) Collecting Funds- Notwithstanding any other provision of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (12 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) or any other provision of law, the Secretary of Treasury shall collect all revenues relating to, and proceeds from the sale of, obligations purchased and made under the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (12 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) by not later than September 30, 2014, at a rate of not less than 20 percent per year of the total obligations purchased and made under such Act.

You are kidding right? Sigh. Well it just shows me how much you know about any country other than your own. Things really aren't that dissimilar...just on a smaller scale.

Originally posted by Pathos

If I am poor in the first place, I was not being personally responsible for my own well being.

Based on this nonsense alone, you and I have nothing further to discuss.

again, everyone here seems to think that all of your health problems are because of a person's actions. You guys seemed to have ignored my example, which I though proved the point of advocating for health care pretty well.

Here it is again: The surgery costs 30k, it is not the result of any actions but rather because of having come out of the womb a little too early. Do you think that someone who can't afford health care can afford that surgery? And are you heartless enough to say that you give even a little to help that person?

Also you seem hell bent on thinking that Obama will raise taxes on the middle class. Hell, he has already reduced your taxes. He has said again and again, only those making 200k and more a year will have their taxes raised. I hardly think those people will be crying over losing a little bit of that income. Also you seem to think raising taxes on those people can't cover the deficit. Do you know that during the Bush years, the top 1% recieved around 70% of the economic growth? and that they still earn a little under half of all economic growth? (the source is from Bill Maher)

reply to post by schrodingers dog

So the argument that gov. hc shouldn't exist in the proposed form because some will abuse it is moot to me.

Nor would i care, because they obviously abuse the programs already available. But if we ALL are forced into the same programs already being abused, who's health care suffer? The responsible people do...

If it were simply a matter of "helping people" I would be all for it. But the Gov does NOTHING .. EVER... just to help people.. mark my words, a few years from now and this passes people will look back on the days of private insurance and health care as "the good ol' days"

If we don't go bankrupt before then....

reply to post by iamjesusphish


So this post settles it. Everyone is insured to some degree, and the Obama plan is unnecessary.

Unless you take into consideration that the plan is not so much about healthcare as control.

reply to post by Strictsum

They are using people like you to categorize everyone who is against this bill as greedy Americans.

Not a single person here has said that the reason they don't support it is chiefly they are concerned about the money.

Though the financial aspect is very important.

Chief point thus far: Federal Government. Nuff said.

reply to post by Rockpuck


So has every health problem you have ever had been directly tied to your own actions? What if a person in the lower class gets cancer? can you honestly say that this is their fault?

reply to post by VinceP1974


LOL a bill that tried to steal the TARP funds, that's rich... who sponsored that bill?

Granted, the Tarp funds only would have funded such a program for so long.. and it still doesn't focus on reform.

Originally posted by moocowman
So, do we take it that the fruit and vegetables you eat are free from pesticides and weren't transported half way round the planet ?

As a matter of fact, I grow my own, in my own pesticide free garden, my herbs too.

Your bacon and sausages are somehow free from sodium nitrate /sodium nitrite ?

Don't eat either of those items, ever.

Not an ounce of burger/beef you eat has been fed steroids ?

That's correct, steroid free, I buy a calf once a year and have it slaughtered. I know the farm/ranch I get it from, the family that runs it & how they take care of the cattle.

I also know where my chicken and eggs come from, both free range, and steroid free

There is no MSG in any of your prepared meals or takeaways ?

Don't eat prepared foods, only take-away ever is Papa John's pizza which does not use MSG. I cook all my own meals from scratch.

Your beer/wine has a clear list of all it's ingredients ?

I vint my own wine, don't drink much beer, but last time I checked, Sam Adams was a clean brew

An alarm goes off should you go through the checkout with a product containing Aspartame or one of a list of millions of E numbers ?

I won't even treat the ants in my yard with aspartame. I avoid it, and all food additives like the plague.

I do grow my own stevia though, real good stuff!

Your preferred mode of transportation does not employ the burning of fossil fuels which you and I immediately breath in ?

I do not own a car, I do use public transportation on rainy days, I ride my bike in good weather, I live within walking distance of grocery stores and a mall and have a grocery cart I use to bring my packages home.

The timber in your home came from trees that do not act as lungs for our planet ?

The condo I live in has steel studs, aren't ALL trees "lungs" for our planet?
Oh and all my appliances are energy efficient & my kitchen cabinets are made from bamboo.

We all seem to be making our selves ill or committing suicide my friend. It would appear that the majority of us, who do it slowly are spared the condemnation that we heap upon others who do it quickly and visibly.

Stupidity is stupidity my friend, is there any point in having levels of it ?

Not sure what your point is there, but as reflected above, I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Including but not limited to making healthy choices in life & lifestyle.

I am also a naturopath/holisitic medicine user and in the process of becoming a licensed practitioner, unfortunately, full time school is not in my schedule with a full time job.

Any other questions??

reply to post by iamjesusphish


That's wonderful. But let me explain something to you. There's this thing called the government, and it's filled with the worst of the worst of leaders, as you would find in any super power. You see, these leaders don't give a damn if you live or die. They just want control of you and your money. As George Carline put it, they just want a nice place to live, F*ck the rest.

So you see, when the government desires to run health care, they would like nothing more and nothing less then finding a way to maximize control of you and your funds. And as one may guess, making a person sicker for longer makes them buy more medicine, thus giving them more money. So how can they do this? The mighty bureaucracy. With the mighty bureaucracy. You get what you need, but slow and an inch from emergency. Bureaucracy tries to maximize savings while still keeping you alive for the least amount of cost.

In good 'ol nations like Canada and France, they have a system where you don't pay anything, and there are for too few people and far too few issues to cause any problem. The bureaucracy manages to do well, and because they are not superpowers, they don't worry about profit. They are small, profitable nations that only need worry about their own people, and say a bunch of "love US" BS to keep our businesses in there. They get industry and business from us, and so they can live without problems.

But you see, what happens when you have 300 million people, as opposed to 30 million? you have bureaucratic failure. Rome, for instance, got so bad that they just split in half. And even then slowly split into more pieces, falling apart.

So here's the thing. America is big. It's bankrupt. It's got 1 million problems, but the bureaucracy ain't one. Has to spend 380 billion on the bureaucracy to care for the very small number of people on medicare right now. It's spending untold millions, or billions maybe, on oil imports. It's wasting away pumping it invisible money to angry people. It pays terrorists, it pays heros. It does nothing right. So the whole thing is, you you pile on another 240 million people onto a bureaucracy that's already going insane, then it will simply die, and we will all enjoy our failed bureaucracy.

So what's a person to do? You suffer, that's what. You, the voter, failed to stop this path years ago. And now you pay the consequences. When you fix the problem, and make this nation profitable again, THEN you can have universal health care. And with not bureaucracy. Simply paying doctors and getting the job done.

Until that day, you must carry the sins of your chooses. Your inability to organize and defeat corruption has hit a wall. And now this is the results.


When you break your leg, you cannot go to the marathon the next day. you have to heal yourself, do exercise, rebuild, and then go to next year's marathon.

Too bad you were too slow to notice.