I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

Being in the UK i can tell you it's not well fun to wait 3 hours for an emergency, but on the other hand piece of mind is pretty cool. I dont know if i could afford health care, we already pay car insurance, council tax, and pretty outrageous bills for petrol and water... It just would not suit the UK to use the american way of 'health care'

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Wow..you go light on them, there schroingers dog...Well done...sometimes it is not worth the breathe from your lungs..or in this case the exercise of your fingers...

reply to post by Rockpuck


You know puck, you and I mostly agree, even though we take different roads there ...

Even though I am for socialized healthcare as a fundamental quality of a civilized society and nation, I am also not particularly happy with what is being proposed.

I see it as a compromise serving the worse of both worlds, big pharma/ins/hmos AND big government.

If it was up to me I would pick the evil of big gov. (EU, Aus, Jap) or a total free market playing field. But when I say free market I mean free market, no lobbied protections for big corps.

I guess I'm just a romantic.

Originally posted by cynic121
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

So has every health problem you have ever had been directly tied to your own actions? What if a person in the lower class gets cancer? can you honestly say that this is their fault?

Course not. I have never tried to use public funds to help my self though....

Is getting Cancer their fault? No, and I would see nothing wrong with States helping their citizens in such a situation (NOT the Federal Government) .. Sadly for all those that deserve to be treated and cared for, there are degenerated vagabonds like the OP who believe the State is their personal pill box to get high off of. Or illegals, who, for all I care can wallow in the Cancer because I will never support any aspect of Government to fund treatment for illegal aliens.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by VinceP1974

 

LOL a bill that tried to steal the TARP funds, that's rich... who sponsored that bill?

Granted, the Tarp funds only would have funded such a program for so long.. and it still doesn't focus on reform.

It's Demitt's bill. The only expenditure are block grants to States to cover any costs for State-based Pre-existing Insurance programs.

It reforms interstate insurance marketablity and medical malpractice torts.

I am not exactly sure of the impact on employer-provided plans...

but I think that is the key reform.

Employer-provided plans need to end and individual/family/maybe soem larger group - plans be the norm instead.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

You know puck, you and I mostly agree, even though we take different roads there ...

no no no, we can't start agreeing it will confuse the readers..

Even though I am for socialized healthcare as a fundamental quality of a civilized society and nation, I am also not particularly happy with what is being proposed.

Here is how I describe my beliefs. I am a Liberal, I agree with most of the Liberal party lines agendas and beliefs.. I however have read to much history, know to much about economics and am to much of a realist to know that none of it can be achieved through Government, but rather, through lack of Government. Health care is GREAT everyone should have it.. but it shouldn't be handed to you from the Federal Government. Amend it to the Constitution and allow States to create their own plans, like Education.

What ever the Feds touch will die (and in this case, so may we) .. it will take a novel idea and pervert it, then pimp it out to the highest bidder (in this case mega pharma and mega health companies)

EDIT: (the fact that mega insurance companies are not preaching out about this imo, shows that there are still hidden benefits for them we have not figured out yet..) ..

[edit on 8/15/2009 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by Pathos

If I am poor in the first place, I was not being personally responsible for my own well being.

Based on this nonsense alone, you and I have nothing further to discuss.

You don't think people should be accountable for their own actions?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

You know puck, you and I mostly agree, even thought we take different roads there ...

no no no, we can't start agreeing it will confuse the readers..

Such is the price we pay for our blasphemous independent though and embracing reason before dogma. (well that and being foed by strangers )

Oh the things we could do ...

Still ... here we are having to choose between what is before us and not what either/any of us would prefer or believe is right.

[edit on 15 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

well, i read through half of this discussion before I decided to respond.

This country could have been the most prosperous country in the world. NO, it is not now, and never will be again. We are broke as a country, and our grandchildren have been burdened with the debt of this country. Many of those grandchildren haven't been born yet...BTW.

There is not enough money for universal health care. THe treasury has been looted by the criminals in government, and many of the primary dealers/bankers that truly run this country from behind their veil. We have paid out almost 3 trillion dollars to banks and their subsidiaries in the past year or so. We have wasted over 1 trillion dollars on a imperialistic war on behalf of Israel. We cannot account for 2.3 trillion dollars within the pentagon budget. We send hundreds of billions to many foreign countries, especially Israel, so they can create armies and we have the airspace rights to kill even more people...strategically, of course. We overpay all gov contractors by 100s of billions of dollars because gov officials know we will never hold them accountable.

Yeah, its a F'ed up country. Yeah, an before you tell me how much you love your country, first tell me you will put your life on the line for your country. Tell me you will leave the comforts of your home and go with those groups that oppose our fascist government. The government that is literally destroying this country for a reason.

So, you want universal health care? So do I, and I think the American people deserve a lot more. Our government pisses away money like their is no tomorrow. You do the math. You do the research.

This country, and many others should have universal health care, preventative programs, food/shelter for those that need it, transportation systems, education and so much more. The american people pay an extraordinary amount in taxes. Figure it out. Save every receipt that you pay in the country, and determine your percentage that went to either the government as a tax, or to a corporate leechbag for fees.

No. The only welfare in this country is for businesses. Banks especially. Insurance companies, farms, weapon makers, ethanol, corn......ON AND F'ING ON.

YOU PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT. You argue about the wrong issues. And they purposely do this to divide our nation. This is their goal, and they succeed.

Yes...we all should have free medical care. It is not expensive relative to what is being spent now for nefarious projects around the world. AND YOUR TAXES SHOULD GO DOWN!!!!!

reply to post by Pathos


Being poor in and of it's self is not someones choice. A woman who works in a diner for 20 years as a waitress who has a heart attack or cancer is not a position to say "well it's your own damn fault!" .. Though people like the OP I agree 100% .. stupidity earns what you get.

Perhaps we could have a Federal health care plan with a 1 strike rule. One instance of personal stupidity like getting addicted to your pain meds and OD'ing gets you banned for public health care for life.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Still ... here we are having to choose between what is before us and not what either/any of us would prefer or believe is right.

I have the conviction to never settle for the bare minimum .. the Federal plan is obsolete before it even takes effect, it's a waste of money, resources, and will not benefit anyone but a few select individuals... it's inherently corrupt. I could never support it, regardless of the moral implications.

We should tell the Feds to shove it until they come back with a better more complete plan, at least.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Pathos

 

Being poor in and of it's self is not someones choice. A woman who works in a diner for 20 years as a waitress who has a heart attack or cancer is not a position to say "well it's your own damn fault!" .. Though people like the OP I agree 100% .. stupidity earns what you get.

Perhaps we could have a Federal health care plan with a 1 strike rule. One instance of personal stupidity like getting addicted to your pain meds and OD'ing gets you banned for public health care for life.

Its her fault for eating the wrong foods, not exercising, and not taking steps to prevent a heart attack. Its all about choice.

What type of cancer? Did she cause it by smoking? If she did get it from smoking, that would be a choice she made.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


OK I have to draw the line at that. Many people are literally born pre-destined to have such complications.. Essentially just as I was born with a 50/50 chance of going bald (knock on wood that has not happened!)

Should the Feds pay for the treatment? No, I am more inclined that the States should.

reply to post by redhatty


Well I must say if what you claim is true then I have to take may hat off to you for living as healthily as you can (which is not that easy in todays world) and lessening your carbon footprint.

If we could all do this then obviously we would lessen the need for medication.

So obviously the junkie, has no one to blame but himself and should have been allowed to suffer and die before he puts his hands in our pockets for a piece of compassion. after all we don't act as stupidly as him, or anyone who doesn't wear sunscreen for that matter.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Amend it to the Constitution and allow States to create their own plans, like Education.

there is a real idea. there is a real note worth discussing..

resorting to name calling and generalization as the first few 6 (?) pages did was nothing but unconstructive drivvel..

this is the way the constitution is set up.. this is the way it should be handled...on a state by state case where the constituents can make decisions based on what they believe is best for them...

as per the tenth amendment states...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Pathos

 

OK I have to draw the line at that. Many people are literally born pre-destined to have such complications.. Essentially just as I was born with a 50/50 chance of going bald (knock on wood that has not happened!)

Should the Feds pay for the treatment? No, I am more inclined that the States should.

If you are talking about genetics and being born into poverty, I can see helping people to get on their feet. When they do become established in a 40 hour job, they should have the right to find affordable health insurance. Pricing of treatments and insurance is an ethics issue, which the health care system seems to have a problem with. I do not believe a mandatory-nationalized healthcare system is the right solution. Since the main problem is with the companies who provide healthcare, the citizens should not be held responsible for a provider's greed. Putting people on a nationalized system is similar to rewarding them for unethical behavior. Its a double edged sword.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

We should tell the Feds to shove it until they come back with a better more complete plan, at least.

Hard to do with the cacophony of "shill" protesters from both sides, lobbyists, and special interest groups in our way.

Perhaps you and I should just do it ourselves, post it on ATS, send it to "them" and see what happens.

The irony of it all is that I don't believe in insurance, I think it is the greatest fear based scam perpetrated. My wife and I take a chunk of our income every month close or equal to what our premium would be and stick it in a savings/investment fund. Hell that's all insurance companies do with our money anyway so I figured I'd keep the interest. Plus I do better a investing than they do. We try to be healthy pay our taxes and hope for the best. It would however be nice, should (again knock on wood) an "act of god" situation arise, to know that we won't die because we can't afford care.

[edit on 15 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by Pathos


I understand what you mean but it's a fine line from demanding people be constructive, to demanding certain economic output (production) in order to receive any form of care. Which would be a very Fascist idea..

I would never tolerate any form of Federal plan to begin with, allow the states to.. if you don't like what develops, move.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


I never called anyone a name except for calling the OP a degenerate and a vagabond.

as per the tenth amendment states...

Which is what I have been saying all along.. in many threads.. and I get the feeling no one knows what the 10th amendment says..

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by redhatty

 

Well I must say if what you claim is true then I have to take may hat off to you for living as healthily as you can (which is not that easy in todays world) and lessening your carbon footprint.

If we could all do this then obviously we would lessen the need for medication.

So obviously the junkie, has no one to blame but himself and should have been allowed to suffer and die before he puts his hands in our pockets for a piece of compassion. after all we don't act as stupidly as him, or anyone who doesn't wear sunscreen for that matter.

Those are your words, not mine.

I hope you were not attempting to project them onto me, because I NEVER said anything to that effect. I did point out that the OP was an example of a leech on the system. That is all I said.

Or do you think it is perfectly acceptable for a person to use the system already in place for the poor to have health coverage to become a drug addict?

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Hard to do with the cacophony of "shill" protesters from both sides, lobbyists, and special interest groups in our way.

Tell me about it, when I see abortion protesters show up at town hall meetings it makes me sick, just as the leftist crowd that preaches on and on about "humanity" or saying it won't increase taxes. Fact of the matter is.... we really should not be having Corporate Insurance companies, Pharma companies, and Lawyers make a health care bill.

Convene a council of respected Doctors from around the country and hospital administrators as well as representatives of nursing unions, private practice associations and medical university directors... allow them to create the basis of "what is the problem" and "what should be done" and make a recommendation to the Government.

OHHHH but !@#@!$(& hell that would make to much damn sense!

Perhaps you and I should just do it ourselves, post it on ATS, send it to "them" and see what happens.

I dunno the last e-mail I sent to my congress critter I think landed me on the Terrorist Watch List.....

And your right about insurance.. in most cases even people with the best policy you could think of, can end up in a "oh ** me" situation and the insurance doesn't cover a damn thing... or run out of benefits.. or my favorite, the cost of the ER visit is just under the yearly co-pay/Deductible! ..

I am not even going to get started on Car insurance. No, screw it, I am!

I have had the same company since I was 16.. I paid $160 a month on average ($200 now) .. lets get the calculator.. thats average of $1,920 a year.. for 7 years, $13,440 (which is an underestimate) ... my car cost $16,000. Why am I paying $200 a month again? Because it's legally mandated and the insurance company can rape me.

Some kinda corruption in the Health business. And the Life business. And the Property business. Hell my last job managing Escrow accounts for catastrophic insurance claims.. I got some horror stories for homeowners that would make them fall to the fetal position..