"Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail"

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

The involvement is key. Does that make sense?

Honestly, I'm not really sure.

Involvement works in conjunction with intent you see ...

What I believe SO is referring to is surely not born out of lack of involvement. In fact both on ATS, the web, and "town hall" meetings lots more folk are getting involved. But is their intent theirs or driven by a hidden hand, is it emotionally earnest, intellectually honest, etc?

The key, in my opinion, is knowledge before action ...

First do no harm kinda thing.

I remember a Simpsons episode where a meteorite they thought would destroy Springfield burns down to the size of a pebble and falls harmlessly to the ground ...
I also remember someone (Moe) saying: "Let's go burn down the observatory so this never happens again!" In many ways that is what SO is describing and is happening in American politics today.

[edit on 11 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by Mr.Hyde
So with this information, what are we to do?

I believe everyone here is aware that Voting is pointless.

No. Simply NO! Voting sends a message...but that is only part of the message. Keep aware of the issues, and let your rep know of your opinions. Don't just write when they're wrong...write when they do something right as well. Join the party that best encompasses your values and make your voice heard on a grass roots level.

Doesn't matter who lobbies what for how much money...if they don't get their arses elected, then they go back to selling cars, real estate, their trust funds, whatever.

And DON'T EVER forget that!

People the world over DIE for the right to cast their ballot!

And a self-edit to say that it is quite apparent that we have a lot of promoters of the "Damn the country, Obama must fail" religion right here at this site...and thanks be that SO has effectively outed them for what they are!



[edit on 11-8-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

For those interested.......
www.opensecrets.org...

Total Lobbying Spending

2003 $2.05 Billion
2004 $2.18 Billion
2005 $2.43 Billion
2006 $2.62 Billion
2007 $2.86 Billion
2008 $3.30 Billion
2009 $1.63 Billion (reported thus far)

Number of Lobbyists

2003 13,134
2004 13,365
2005 14,355
2006 14,670
2007 15,159
2008 14,838
2009 12,572

www.opensecrets.org...

Lobbying Top Spenders (2009) Client Total
US Chamber of Commerce $26,196,000
Exxon Mobil $13,590,000
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $13,060,000
Chevron Corp $12,815,000
General Electric $12,286,000
Pfizer Inc $11,720,000
National Assn of Realtors $9,617,000
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $9,529,747
AARP $9,380,000
Verizon Communications $9,330,000
ConocoPhillips $9,250,928
American Hospital Assn $8,497,176
American Medical Assn $8,470,000
AT&T Inc $8,191,618
BP $7,640,000
Altria Group $7,500,000
Business Roundtable $7,360,000
Eli Lilly & Co $7,030,000
National Cable & Telecommunications Asn $6,880,000
Lockheed Martin $6,781,247

By Sector (2009)
www.opensecrets.org...

Sector Total
Health $263,426,239
Finance, Insurance & Real Estate $222,699,000
Misc Business $212,495,523
Energy & Natural Resources $201,472,591
Communications/Electronics $181,659,955
Transportation $122,602,827
Other $121,943,510
Ideological/Single-Issue $72,409,933

It pains me to see that SO has gone to DC and verified our worst fears about the state of our government. Hopefully its not to late to do anything, but I fear that by the time the masses are ready to do something it will be to late...

Thanks for posting this SO, I hope it serves to open people's eyes...

Its a sad day indeed, and the SOS on the ATS logo is well justified.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

I've noticed the escalation in rhetoric also. I watch business news pretty much all day and the parade of congressmen interviewed have been coming out with more and more outlandish claims about anything involving Obama. Even the news anchors are taken back by the fantastic claims some of these guys are making and it's common now for the interviews to break down into shouting matches.

Yup - I think the role the MSM plays in this is the other part of this and its actually pretty scary. If it wasn't helping to drive a wedge in the country it would be almost funny.

Watching the MSM now is like watching pro-wrestling. Two sides, each shouting, yelling and making outlandish claims while the commentators egg them on and toss in their own jabs while the fans eat it up and scream for more.

Except here the people of the US are the "fans". Being fed lines of ever increasing retoric from both sides. Really, there is little difference in the way the WWE plays its fans and the way the MSM and TPTB are playing the people of the US right now.

You think it isn't so? We here at ATS should know when we are being worked, or at least we should suspect it may be the case but in many discussions even here the harsh words start flying.

Vince Mcmahon himself couldn't have done a better job than TPTB and the MSM have at turning "news" into something designed to draw people to one side or another and pit them against each other in a rabid fashion.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Knowledge before action? Where'd that come from...

Whenever I harp about involvement, I always assume that people understand that I mean knowledgable involvement. Anything else would be counterproductive. Perhaps in my future sermons I should emphasize knowledgable involvement. Know the issues...I may disagree...but at least we're arguing from a base of common knowledge.

Edited for spelling: Lest someone hurt themselves laughing....

[edit on 8/11/2009 by seagull]

reply to post by seagull

Perhaps in my future semons I should emphasize knowledgable involvement. Know the issues...I may disagree...but at least we're arguing from a base of common knowledge.

Yes it would be very good to be knowledgable in your further semons.......

I'm sorry that was just too funny.

~Keeper

SkepticOverLord,

Posting this soley on having read only the OP so far.

Words cannot describe how let down I feel for way things went in DC.

An exciting opportunity to sway the PTb? That was my hope, just not in the cards, or was it?

Do you suppose your visit has at least saved our necks from the chopping block?

I am going to flatter myself and pretend that some might be interested in another take on this...,

First: SO, I must say that was a fine piece of 21st Century journalism! I envy your access to the experience, and I am pleased you were there to experience it.

I recall many (many) ATSers who clearly understand the nature of the actors in this shadow puppetry we have been led to believe is the America we thought still exists.

While I agree that engagement is an essential component to sway any government from straying away from the Republican path, the 'players' in this 'career politician' world still call it a 'democracy.' That seems telling. The political parties are hermetically sealed. They choose the candidates, not us. So those with appropriate 'sponsorships' become members.

Term limits are tempting, but potentially self-defeating. We must either accept that citizens can be trusted with the power of public service, or we need a completely new take on how we are to govern ourselves.

I think the problem is quite simply that we tolerate being lied to and misled. Our corrupted politicians get away with representing special interest because we allow them to play 'marketing' games and 're-branding reality' which is just a fancy way of lying.

Perhaps the only solution to the problem that I can envision is complete - unabridged - mandatory full disclosure of ALL relationships between the government of the people and ANY other entity be it a state, corporation, or cabal of interests.

Imagine if there was no legal way to conceal your contact and actions with ANY government office. What if we disallow the redefinition of 'lobbying' to exclude former governmental employees? What if transcripts of any and all meetings involving public officials were available to all citizens?

If they can't lie, hide, and dissimulate, there will be no value in courting politicians any more. If agenda's and attendees MUST be publicly announced how can they hide? All fraud and crime related to the abuses of power and the rampant cronyism will be exposed, or will force the perpetrators into an untenable situation involving the one thing NO career politician seems able to tolerate..., risk.

If we disable the faux-confidentiality of government affairs, how can the government proceed to manipulate and corrupt a free press?

There are reasons to keep secrets yes, but not EVERYTHING need be secret, and each secret carries a cost multiplier for the citizens.

Is it a fantasy to think such a society might exist that would not allow secret deals, plans, and meetings to take place on the government dime? Perhaps.

Thanks for the thread!

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

The question is, and this goes to other ATS'ers not just Bill, once in power, will the power corrupt you?

[edit on 11-8-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

If we go with Bill's idea of a benevolent dictator I would (if in that spot) set out right up front a temporary law that if I didn't leave office by X date that assasination of me was not a crime. Also assign a dozen random military snipers the job of making sure I left office by X date.

Then I would start the process of revamping the tax laws, and election laws. The goal being by year 5 (of 6 years) having a functioning senate and congress again, then in year six elect a new executive branch and the rest of senate/congress.

Some reforms I'd push for - No health insuarance companies. All health expenses are tax deductive and you can carry them over. ie if you spend enough in a year to reduce your taxes to zero you get to cary over the extra deductions to year 2 (or later). I'd also trash the tort lawsuit laws to make suing the health industry for frivolous things not possible. Everyone would be paying there own way but it would be a lot less expensive then insurance is.

Secure the borders, we need to spend less time and money on foreign wars and spend it on keeping those who wish us harm out of the country. As part of this the Army, Navy and Air Force would be reduced in size, but the national guard would larger to help with domestic issues (like natural disasters).

Make a national education system - I'd make universities and other post secendary institutes funded nationally through a reverse program. All people wanting post secondary would be ranked based on standardized tests. Then you (the student) select the school(s) you are interested in and the program you want to go into. The schools would get a list of students (without names just a blind number), there test scores and the program they want into, also each would have a value figure. The value figure would be based on the score of the student timesed by a program multiplier (doctors would be a higher multiplier than a poli sci program). Then each school is only looking at the funding and score of the student, no way for them to know race, gender or that it's someone's kid. Schools that have poor reviews by students will loose students and those schools will have to improve to keep funded. Also if there is a shortage of auto-mechanics the gov't for a few years raises the multiplier for that program and that encourages schools to expand those programs. Then once you graduate you would pay a 5% extra tax for 10 years with that money going directly back into the education system to repay your schooling and help fund the next generation. If you didn't go to school you would not pay the extra tax.

Get the federal gov't out of all the things it should not be into, ie anything that is not in the constitution.

In year 5 have each state hold a referendum (by year 5 the new laws should be pretty much straightened out) where the citizens can vote on staying in the Republic or not. if they don't want to (75% majority vote) then they can leave, no hard feelings. Just secure the borders around those states.

Unions - I'd toss all unions and union laws. I hate monopolies and a union is just a monopoly under a different name.

I'd make it illegal to have a law written that the average person can not understand. It also outlaw the practice of putting unrelated things in different bills (ie changing a tax law in a bill on military spending).

I'd set term limits for congress and senate.
I'd add an average person to the supreme court as a check against silly things.
Lobbyists would be illegal and companies caught bribing or providing gifts or perks to congress/senate would bee shut down and dismantled. I'd make the owners/board of companies more responsible for what the company does. ie if you own it you need to keep and eye on it.

Ok that's all my ideas for now.

Originally posted by Amaxium
It is truely sad to see when opposites cannot learn to "get along" for the benefit of the nation. Obama was elected and I can accept that he is our President even though I did not vote for him.

This is the epitemy of the phrase "sore loser".

Did you really not understand what you just read?

MONEY controls the whole deal, and the only reason the repubs are ready to cut throats, is that the party in control gets more $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Who gives a crap whether it is Obama, McCain, or Nic Sarkozy, they are all bought and paid for.

To accompany my post on Lobbying Money totals...

What a Seat in the House or Senate costs....These are just the average campaign costs. How does the average Joe find 5.5 Million dollars just to run for the Senate and represent "the people"?

How do we fix it?

www.cfinst.org...

2008

House Winners Raised $1.1 million (median) through October 15;
Senate Winners Raised $5.6 million

The good news is that just 5 years ago sites like ATS, facebook and other user driven sites were in their infancy or non-existant.

Americans are waking up. We are becoming more informed. We are no longer spoonfed media through 3 television networks.

Motivation is a response to pain. Soon it will be too painful to sit on the couch.when the average $15/hr joe sees 50% of his paycheck stolen by the govt, there is going to be hell to pay.

Obama knows it and that's why he's in such a rush.

Originally posted by Maxmars
If they can't lie, hide, and dissimulate, there will be no value in courting politicians any more. If agenda's and attendees MUST be publicly announced how can they hide?

They can hide in public easily. How many people can objectively seperate ideaological concept(s) with their subjective interpretation that was provoked by the exposure to said ideaological concept(s)?

I think that the public comprehension/educational level is a relevant point of ponderance and should be considered in this scenario.

Why do some seem surprised by this. Hell, we've known for a long time that money runs Washington and for the most part sets policy. However, as far as the republicans targeting Obama, all I have to say is of course they are. Just like the Dems targeted McCain and Palin. That's standard policy in politics....demonize your opponent while quietly sweeping your corruption under the carpet.

My question is, besides money of course, is why do you think it has gotten so much worse? Or, are we just more aware of it now than in the past. Do the republicans have a legitimate gripe against Obama? I mean after all, he is spending money like crazy. Has not made good on his promises of open government, getting rid of the lobbyists and earmarks. He is trying to push health care reform without any real set plan.

Except for some rabid Obama fans, most people are not really happy with him right now. With all the spending, although he says he wont raise taxes we all know that there will be no choice. Not to mention all the hidden taxes that will undoubtedly spring up all over.

Many people are concerned with the direction our country is headed, many on this site express these concerns daily, so do they have a legitimate reason for wanting to 'get him', or do you think it's ALL about corruption and money.

BTW, I think they all suck but that's bedside the point.

Originally posted by MemoryShock

I think that the public comprehension/educational level is a relevant point of ponderance and should be considered in this scenario.

See now you're being interesting ...

I'm going to share a personal and uncomforting anecdote with ya'll.

I attended a small liberal arts college in NY named Bard College. The dean at the time was a brilliant gentleman by the name of Leon Botstein.

I had the privilege of having many private conversations with him and he imparted to me this knowledge, which he also later shared before a congressional committee on public education in the 90's ...

Namely, that democracy, and specifically American democracy can only operate under the premise of a moderately educated populace. In effect, people will only accept an unsophisticated two party system if they are educated just enough to reach simplistic consensus/polarity but not educated enough to form evolved independent thought. So the ptb, in order to retain control, needs us to know enough to agree/disagree but not enough to form complex understandings and see through them.

So you are correct, their enemy is always education ... not necessarily in the form of information, but in the form of understanding.

I don't know if the political war is worse than any other time.. I mean, during clintons time it was very bad..

But the special interest have never been stronger.. ill give ya that.

Its not a republican or democrat problem... its the fundementals that need refreshing.. a reboot. The system is so inheritently corrupt that the constituents don't have a freaking chance in hell to be represented.

This is where the call for both parties to be removed.. and the calls for a return to Constitutional Law ... by any means available... come from. Some see it as a right wing movement, and complain so on ATS. Really its just Americans fed up with how we as people are being treated by the two party monster in DC.

We are seeking justice, not revenge on any one party...

reply to post by schrodingers dog


"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers." Carroll Quigley


Same train with a different conductor. The track was laid thousands of years ago, a few people are just now sticking there heads out of the window and saying "Where the heck is this train headed".

SaturnFX

"Your right...this isnt a situation that can be changed...the only possible way to end this is if we elect someone who basically disbans the republic and we switch to a democracy..."

chiponbothshoulders
"Hey,the republic was killed a long time ago,we have to re-enstate the republic. "


Interesting dynamic here, upon finding that servants on both sides of the aisle serve the same master...the almighty dollar

No matter how you slice it, if Obama fails, so does the nation. Weather you voted for him or not, his success is our success. I won't call you anti-American, because I don't know you. But whoever is in the white house, we should wish them well. Then cross our fingers.