"Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail"

reply to post by Springer


Term Limits would be a good start, that's for sure.

I know a few more good starting points as well.

Start a lobbying firm, for the people, by the people, and only including the people.

Make sure no snakes in the grass ex-politicians can get in.

Make sure no shills get in to stand against the people.

Make sure that everything is voted on, within the lobbying firm, for the people of America.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Is it too late?

Was there ever any hope?

Never was any hope. All one has to do is "follow the money". The fix was in before the election ever happened. Take a look at how much money Obama spent on the election, this from that right wing blog, the Huffington Post:

www.huffingtonpost.com... _n_136113.html

Barack Obama's record-breaking September fundraising puts him on track to have as much as a half-billion dollars for the general election, or almost double the resources of Republican opponent John McCain. Obama, the first major-party nominee to shun public funding for the general election, reported taking in $150 million in September, the most ever raised by a presidential candidate in one month and more than twice as much as his previous record of $66 million in August.

Don't get me wrong, it's not just him or the Democratic Party, both sides, given the opportunity, will do the same. It just so happened it was the Dems turn to get the money and be corrupted by it.

Just look at the TARP, engineered by ex-Goldman-Sachs people who just happened to run our economy.....surprisingly two of Goldman's rivals, Bears Stearns and Lehman Bros., were "allowed" to fail. And somehow we are supposed to not notice?

We never even had a chance, the people running the show already had all the plot twists written out before we even figured out "who done it".

Term Limits is only part of the answer. Controlling monetary access is another part of it... Most of it comes down to US, the citizens, getting off our numb, dumb, and apathetic arses and take back control.

Requiring these powermongering twits to be answerable to us is the only way anything will ever change. Term Limits and controlling the special interest access is part and partial to that.

US. It's time to get very angry.

[edit on 8/11/2009 by seagull]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

I personally feel that Americans would have to share a common ground to reverse the political trends we currently see. A common ground that is bigger than any other issue. Yet, I don't know what that common ground would be.

Maybe it is too late.

reply to post by Springer


TERM LIMITS, you know that may have been nice but look at the members of the house and senate there not going anywhere anytime soon. Why? A two party system; Outlaw political parties and institute a constitutional change in term limits then it would truly work. But until then nothing will.

Verily, it is an unsettling situation. The level of aggressive opposition by Republicans toward President Obama seems far more marked than opposition in previous administrations, when you consider how irrational and baseless that opposition is. With G.W., there was severe criticism, but that had a clear basis, and every day seems more justified. But Obama hasn't been in office for even a year, and the Republicans are trying to undermine every step he makes for any and no reason at all.

Whatever your political beliefs, this is indeed inefficient. It is a dangerous game, which grows more dangerous by the day. To the extent that this is politics as usual, perhaps, but the stakes are raised given the current crises we face as a nation and as a planet.

It certainly seems like a game of attack and defend, or some disproportionate game of battleship. Especially when you have the government directly responding to false claims and rantings of some uninformed person, no matter what position he is in.

As in this thread: Letter from the Whitehouse (so it begins)

Politicians are blatantly and openly fabricating (In some cases even straight up lying to the general public or whomever will listen) almost everyday with no one stepping in to stop this system or throw a wrench in the gears. Is it we do not know how to stop it? Or is it the system is so filled with loopholes and/or corruption that we, the people, and anyone else who cares are powerless to do so?

I was sitting here pondering the other day why when I ask somebody "Why do politicians get away with not telling the truth so much so and why does no one try to force them out of power or have them fired?" and I was replied with " That's just politics!" and "Money is our god!"

Maybe that is just politics now but it seriously needs to be revamped. If you ask me the whole system needs to come down to fully rid this blasphemy from this mess we call a republic.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by born2BWild]

reply to post by Springer


I'm not a fan of term limits. I'd prefer to keep it in the hands of the electorate. My opinion (and I could be wrong) is that an end to gerrymandering would have the same effect. I think there's something to be said for experience and continuity, especially considering the complexity of the issues.

The inherent flaw of our system: People can vote themselves goodies. Once you have more "takers" than producers, that's an issue. If you've ever read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" she takes about 1200 pages to tell us that. The crooks in Washington only care about the next election. And of course, they vote themselves the very best goodies.

Here's a couple of other ways - (1) Eliminate gerrymandering which now practically guarantees 95% of the seats in the House are virtually uncontested. Not going to happen because the incumbents would have to create a situation which puts them in jeopardy.

(2) Drastically increase the size of the House of Representatives. We're still working with the same number of 435 members we've had since we had less than half the population. Our representation is diluted by the number of constituents each congressman has. Which means the big money lobbyists have a much bigger impact proportionally than they have had historically, and it gets worse every year. I don't see this happening either, because it would be spun as "increasing the size of government" rather than empowering more people.

(3) Eliminate "professional" lobbying. I'm not sure exactly how to police that, but I like the sound of it. Lobbying is a basic right of the system. I don't think we can, or should do away with it completely. Actually, I'm not even sure what "special interests" are anymore. I guess interests that aren't mine?

As long as the electorate can vote in the people who will give them things (which have to be taken from other people) and the congress can keep their positions by doing that and keeping the lobbyists happy, That's the way it's going to go. There WILL be a tipping point (when Atlas shrugs) but it will be very very ugly.

It's a circus. Strap in and embrace the horror.

reply to post by jam321


Not to answer for him...

Common ground, other than a govt. answerable to the people, isn't really required.

There are many voices to be heard...no one voice should be more important than the other. In our Republic, such as it is at the moment, the voice of the majority should rule...not which ever group has the most money. this is the common ground, IMHO.

Originally posted by jam321
Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

Sadly, the only viable answer I can imagine is a patriot benevolent dictator who takes over for 4-6 years, cleans house, restores a modestly sized republic focused on representation of the people, and passes several laws to ensure it all stays intact before he/she resigns.

Originally posted by Springer
TERM LIMITS, it's the only way to "clean house". As long as we have career politicians in the Senate and the House we are going to get what we have...

I would agree and along with that hard cap limits on spending for a political race. As it stands now, Stalin, given enough money, could win a seat in Congress going against a no money Ghandi.

Of course getting Congress to do both of these, we might as well wait for Hell to freeze over.

It will need a Constitutional Amendment, there is no way Congressmen will cut themselves off of the teat.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Bill, here are a few quotes from a thread I started a while back.

How To Overthrow Your Own Government, Legally and Without Violence, In Order To Survive

There are many and far simpler and much more effective means to overthrow the entire structure of Government, quite legally, I might add without lifting a finger in violence.

I did this thread with the intention of illuminating the non-violent approach.

I also did it, steering away from breaking the terms and conditions of this website.

Anyone can form a non-profit organization, you just have to form over ten-thousand non-profit organizations, get the entirety of your friends, family, and anyone else who wants to make a difference in their country, and all the changes for the betterment of mankind, ask them them all to be on the Board of Directors of each and every one of those legal corporations.

What most Americans do not realize is that they can actually take control of their own Government.

For less than $100 you can incorporate a non-profit organization, with a Board of Directors.

Next, you begin fund-raising on all sorts of topics your organizations beliefs are built on.

Education, civil rights, world hunger, you name it, just make sure it is important to you and the people you are trying to help.

I used the thread as a means to show that you can take your Government away from corrupt politicians who practice the type of activities, and who talk just like you mentioned in your first post, Bill.

They have already shown you how to do exactly what you want, you have to just take action.

The question is, and this goes to other ATS'ers not just Bill, once in power, will the power corrupt you?

[edit on 11-8-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

In another thread, I stated the reason that I could say I was against Healthcare reform without having read the bill.

All I needed to see was who was present at the table to craft the bill.

Politicians.
Drug company reps.
Health ins. reps.
Hospital administrators.

Knowing this, I see no need to read this bill, and the same could be said of the rest of the schemes coming from or Representatives now-a-days.

What to do now?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jam321
Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

Sadly, the only viable answer I can imagine is a patriot benevolent dictator who takes over for 4-6 years, cleans house, restores a modestly sized republic focused on representation of the people, and passes several laws to ensure it all stays intact before he/she resigns.

HA, I've often pondered running then once (if) I won to call a special session whereas all members of congress MUST attend (you know, because of national security) then declare a national emergency and martial law then round them all up. Inform the public that there would be new elections in 90 days and start from scratch. In the meantime there would be a team of lawyers striking all unconstitutional laws from the US Code....

You get the idea.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Primordial]

While I do think that the huge amount of money the lobbyists have access to is a big part of the problem, and the influence they wield is certainly a big part of the problem, I have to agree with many of those above who have stated that the biggest issue is voter apathy.

People KNOW something is not right. People see things going on that should not be going on. Look at my home state of NY for example. We have had a State Senate that for years has accomplished nothing except enrich themselves and those close to them, and yet they get reelected every 2 years because no one cares. Districts that have 50,000 residents over 18 report voter turnout of 5,000. In recent news our Senate was totally paralyzed because of a power grab by a few Senators, and yet in 2010 when these guys are up for reelection they will win. Even though they cost the city and state millions. Why? Because they are favored by the lobbyists, the money men, and the "party leaders." No one else has a chance, and no one is willing to fight for a chance.

It's the same in Congress and the US Senate. We have a do nothing Senator (Gillibrand) who was appointed by an incompetent Governor (Paterson) who himself was appointed to office. And yet, when others expressed interest in running for Gillibrand's seat, they were pressured by no less than the President of the United States himself, not to run.

Voter apathy has permitted these special interest groups and other political thugs to transform elected office into appointed office. Come November the voters are given a "choice" but are they really? "Undesirable" candidates are forced out of the running before voters even have a look at them, so is it really fair?

Yes the corrupt lobbies and the political thugs are the ones conducting this manipulation but the voters have rolled over and died. No one in New York cares that we have a legislative body that screwed us, in fact we're going to end up sending them back to Albany next year.

On a national scale... how often are voters able to address issues without being intentionally distracted by stupidity? Never. The manipulators do it, and the voters allow it.

Like the man said... we're in deep trouble.

Star and flagged, Bill, thanks for the personal incite on the tom-foolery taking place in Washington. As you mentioned, it will come as no surprise to people that frequent this site. However, when you described that the cafeteria was teeming with lobbyists; that should raise alarms at how infested our political system is with special interest groups. Special interests are like a cancer to the political process in this country. You must cut the cancer out before it has the chance to metastasize and kill the patient. Sadly, I think we are terrifyingly close to the aforementioned analogy. However, I have a few solutions that we can kick around that might work.

First, lets set term limits on members of Congress and the Senate. This is very difficult because the same career politicians will have to draft and ratify this legislation. It's only natural for them to drag their feet on it and throw wrenches in the engine. However, people should keep the pressure on their elected officials to see that this solution is passed. Maybe, people of each district should stifle their representatives with emails, phone calls, and lively exchanges when they are back home? Start a grass-roots campaign if you will. One way or another they will have to listen. If they don't the people should make it as uncomfortable for them as feasibly possible.

Secondly, lets try to see more third party candidates propped up during election time. There needs to be fresh faces and fresh ideas in Washington. The old guard must go. Another party needs to step on the scene with the same clout as the Republicans and Democrats. This will shake things up which is needed at present.

Third, lobbyists need to be banished from the Capital Grounds. If they want support for a given enterprise by government they can attend the town meetings with everyone else to share their requests. Elected officials will be barred from meeting with lobbyists in their corporate offices as well. Any special requests will be made in a public setting. Therefore, constituents will be aware of such activities by lobbyists. To reiterate, lobbyists must be banned from the Capital, by them being there; it leaves the legislatures open to undue influence, corruption, and avarice. This alternative will be a good attempt at keeping our elected officials honest. Again, the tricky part is getting the legislature to draft and ratify a bill that will take away their gravy train. However, the people must be resolute in seeing that it is done. You can't keep the wolf in the hen house!

The solutions listed above have been offered before, but they are reasonable; and must be given the attention they deserve! That is the real change that needs to be established in Washington. It can be done as long as the people remain focused and persistent. Keep up the good work, Bill.

I'm learning to crawl in her SO, and I appreciate you making this available to us. I won't pretend to be the political savvy type and as such, probably just admitted that I'm part of the problem.

It sounds to me like nothing is any different than it has been for a long time. That term limits won't change anything, even if we, as a people had the 'power' to make it happen.

I really thought that the way things are now, was a pretty recent phenomenon, again, just learning to crawl. I knew, thanks to you guys, that my voice doesn't really matter. That when it comes down to it, unless we have millions to throw at a 'representative' that our voice is just another one of the screaming baby birds wanting a worm.

I know it wasn't your intention to exorcise the last bit of false hope I could fool myself into hanging on to. It's difficult being ignorant.

I feel a little lost and sort of like an idiot. What do I do now? How can we have come so far? How do I fix the hole in my wisdom that allows me to deal with this? How do I apply my energy and efforts? I know it's probably been a long time for you, SO, since you learned to walk, but there are so many of us that haven't quite stood up yet to take our first steps. What do we do?

Hopelessly beyond repair?

Originally posted by Springer
TERM LIMITS, it's the only way to "clean house". As long as we have career politicians in the Senate and the House we are going to get what we have...

I don't think that the issue is that simple. One of the issues with past governing systems was the fact that the ruling class made no secret that they were in power and that people should accept what they had/were given.

Enter modern day politics, where the major difference is that the ruling party makes all kinds of show that they are concerned about the public and what they want. And to an extent, that is true.

But who is in charge?

The lobbyist rule in Washington clearly indicates that money is in charge rather than whom we elect into office. Period. It really doesn't matter if the most ideological of us is put into office as one voice will get drowned by the money, or those who recognize that without money nothing can get done. It does require money to save a species, it does cost money to transfer to clean energy, it does cost money to induce change.

And that is the issue. If a particular party isn't in power then they aren't allocating the money and aren't getting their percieved piece of the pie.

We traded one system of class rule for another.

But this particular system is palatable because one lesson was learned and that is smoke and mirrors. It's all in the presentation.

If we wanted to get away from the either/or aspect of partisan ship or class rule then we can discard the ideology and focus on what we do know.

Not everyone understands or places the same priority on the same set of circumstances as everyone else. I think this is an important thing to keep in mind, especially when people venture to debate people they have never met. I think that people view the world as they percieve and think it should be, negating the fact that, despite logic, people have a different experience set to draw their opinions and conclusions from. This is relevant when we consider the type of people we are voting into office and the people whom are doing the voting. And since we can never get to an exact communication of these motivations, communication usually is best accomplished through general idealism.

And that is how politicians communicate to the public and that is what the public responds to. And to think that this isn't known and intentionally used by our politicians is naive, in my opinion.

It's all about the money and the amount of time people focus on the issues. And let's not forget that the corporations and interests that pay for the lobbyists are doing so on behalf of the advertising dollars/efforts expended to maximize the attention (focus/mental attentions) given by the population to their specific product/project/idea. Which translates into less time spent focusing on the issues.

The issue is actually very complex and not so easy as political reform.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jam321
Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

Sadly, the only viable answer I can imagine is a patriot benevolent dictator who takes over for 4-6 years, cleans house, restores a modestly sized republic focused on representation of the people, and passes several laws to ensure it all stays intact before he/she resigns.

Stretch the 4-6 years to 7 and you got the AntiChrist! Now there is someone who can effect change. Unfortunately he won't meet your "patriot benevolent dictator" ideal. I think your earlier question regarding if it's too late belies your postulation on reform. Reform of what? Nothing left to start with.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Thank you and Seagull for your honest answers.

Excellent thread