"Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail"

We really need a revolution.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Education is not the problem.. education is simply indoctrination in a set way of thinking. How many people my age have I met from respectable 4 year institutions that know only the liberal party line their professors taught them? Its a matter of logical thought, the ability to see from the outside. I had to drop out of college, but I wouldn't say that has in any way affected my ability to tell when a politician is lying, or to understand the fundamentals of economics. In fact, I didn't learn much of anything through our school system except to be ashamed of it.

Humanity by nature desires to be led by a leash.. they want to be told what to think, how to understand, what they should say. But most importantly they desire to have someone somewhere make all the decisions for them, and so long as personal intrusion is at a minimum, they could be robbed blind and not give a damn.

Edit to fix my horrible spelling....

[edit on 8/11/2009 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
which he also later shared before a congressional committee on public education in the 90's ...

Now that is interesting.

One of the issues regarding public educational level is that it is such a variant. It is impacted by many things, such as genetics (I'm not convinced this is a major contributor), nurture (how parents interact with their children in the most formative stages is incredibly relevant in that the experiential set the infant has to base decisions and future communicative/interactive habits begin from the get go) and then the incredibly complex amalgam of this for every indiviual in a society as they interact with the resources of society and each other.

Essentially, inadequate education, in many cases, is that which begets inadequate education. Furthermore, it is widely regarded as adequate education in that many attribute relevance and validity to societal roles of authority because it is claimed as such...not because it is valid authority.

The tools of critical thinking, earnest communication and collaboration are lost in the self centric reality of our society - and as a result we have a much more fundamental partisanship that extands beyond political labels. Indeed, if our politicians are pacifying the public through rhetoric and idiot programs such as "Cash for Clunkers" (secondary bailout for the automotive industry?) then they are molding society and shepherding it.

And as you say, comprehension level is the big enemy. Most people would rather go to a football game than a political rally and, in my opinion, the current political structure is designed to cultivate that.

Edit for spelling and clarification.

[edit on Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:53:14 -0500 by MemoryShock]

about the republicans with long knives comment, wasn't the same exact thing true the day George W Bush was elected to office? its a circle that goes around everytime a new president is voted into office, more so now due to news on a massive scale

Originally posted by Helghast1
about the republicans with long knives comment, wasn't the same exact thing true the day George W Bush was elected to office? its a circle that goes around everytime a new president is voted into office, more so now due to news on a massive scale

Indeed; that is the underlying theme of the thread...

The Bankers' Manifesto of 1892
circleof13.blogspot.com...

We (the Bankers/Lobbyists) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance.

Organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them.

At the coming Omaha (Obama ?) convention to be held July 4, 1892, our men must attend and direct its movement or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome.

This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capital must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation.

The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

When, through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes,
they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm
of the government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers.

People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.

The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party.

By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus, by discrete actions, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.

This pretty well covers it...

It makes no difference now which party is in "Control"...Corporatism through Lobbyists money is the actual control now...

In recent years their agenda has been passed from one party to the other by division on just about anything...while keeping their core controls and building on them...

Bush...Clinton...Bush...Obama...we keep alternating between party's because we thought the one prior to it couldn't be any worse, but, all "their" gained controls remain and are build upon...

I like 1981's suggestions as a starting point...

Most control should be vested in the states with a minor .Gov role for basic self-protective measures...lose the imperial colonialism...clean our own backyard first...

[edit on 8/11/2009 by Hx3_1963]

Originally posted by MemoryShock

Originally posted by Helghast1
about the republicans with long knives comment, wasn't the same exact thing true the day George W Bush was elected to office? its a circle that goes around everytime a new president is voted into office, more so now due to news on a massive scale

Indeed; that is the underlying theme of the thread...

So what are people supposed to do when we have a government that is impossible to change without violence? it isnt possible

Originally posted by Rockpuck
This is where the call for both parties to be removed.. and the calls for a return to Constitutional Law ... by any means available... come from. Some see it as a right wing movement, and complain so on ATS. Really its just Americans fed up with how we as people are being treated by the two party monster in DC.

We are seeking justice, not revenge on any one party...

I agree entirely, and the only way to change it peaceably, IMHO is to starve it to death....quit paying into the system...use your imagination here, some things shouldn't be said out loud...

The cancer in our society is not the politicians. It is YOU and ME.

You'll find the problems with America when you stare in the mirror.

Once you decide you are lazy and apathetic then things will begin to change. Until then nothing will change. If you do nothing, nothing will change.

Well, perhaps we could engage in a different kind of 'revolutionary' approach.

Information, seems a valuable commodity, but without the prerequisite framework, even brilliance can be reduced to impotence.

Our educational system is of questionable value at present. The real weakness manifesting itself with the youngest and most impressionable future citizens. Kids are not taught how to analyze, how to research, how to synthesize a concept from observation, and frankly, they are barely taught to express themselves, let alone comprehend others.

This problem seems to emulate the chicken and the egg parable. Which will come first. Will our future generations of barely engaged citizens be able to pull themselves up and out of the quagmire of populist agendas wrapped up into an entertainment paradigm?

What could possibly break the chain? Perhaps SO sees the inevitable and historically repetitive phenomena of the appearance of a great 'teacher' or extraordinarily gifted 'golden child' who will uplift our people. I wonder how patient we would have to be for such an occurrence? Can we afford to wait, while we see the Republican gift given us by our forefathers disassembled before our eyes?

I agree that people - in general - respond to charismatic leadership, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on one's proximity to the leader and the trickle-down of his or her largess (if it exists at all.) Maybe this is what lead to the curious acceptance of such things as blood-line royalty (I can't say I approve - after all, royalty means never having to say "inbreeding.")

So, how do we educate America, against her apparent will to remain blissfully ignorant? How can we be certain that political acts aren't restricted to money clubs, or social elite pass-times?

One requires a certain amount of leisure time to engage in governance in this day and age. An increasing number of citizens haven't the time, opting instead to survive and provide their families with the consumer necessities dictated by commerce.

Is it a question of values? Historically speaking, how do cultures change the values to which they have clung for generations? I fear catastrophe and force are the only examples I can recall.

reply to post by Hx3_1963

Bush...Clinton...Bush...Obama...we keep alternating between party's because we thought the one prior to it couldn't be any worse, but, all "their" gained controls remain and are build upon...

I like 1981's suggestions as a starting point...

Most control should be vested in the states with a minor .Gov role for basic self-protective measures...lose the imperial colonialism...clean our own backyard first...

The country started out that way but ultimately became corrupted in fairly short order my Borgian friend.

There really is only one real alternative at this point…Me as benevolent dictator for life!

I am so corrupt and demented already no outside force has a chance of corrupting me further (though I still like to dream).

With a mostly disinterested but benevolent though sometimes whimsical dictator life will be better for the plebes. Real long range planning can occur to ensure a true evolution of society to where everyone basically evolves to be corrupt and demented as me.

Sure there will be a death penalty for not laughing at my jokes or failing to impress upon me that the dinner I cooked was the best tasting you have ever had in your life, but taxes will go down, the work days will shorten and we can have fun games again at the Arenas and Coliseums and find much more fun uses for those silly churches, synagogues and mosques and repeal their tax exempt status at the same time. People will be able to eat lying down again and have babies standing up!

There are some risks of course, choose to live in a flood zone or hurricane zone or earthquake zone and disaster strikes, well hey, we sure didn’t rebuild Pompeii!

Over all I think the country will adjust well to it in time, I know I would!

You will be assimilated, Hail Caesar!

Well as I see it, the only power we have left is our vote, and the problem with that is, people vote.

Politics is like religion and leaders have always been gods.

Nothing has changed, nothing will change, until that day.

Is anyone surprised? Is this some new revelation?

It is an endless cycle, and they play humans like a fiddle.

I think people may be waking up, but it wont change anything.

[edit on 063131p://bTuesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
Was the lobbyist implying that the lobbying industry is specifically targeting Obama's Administration through the Republican party?

...
While the opposing party has always had "hatchet men" focused on the President... it was never the all-out-war that we seem to have now. A partisan "war" that is an irresponsible and insulting slap in the face of the entire nation.

First SO, thank you so much for the commentary and state of our government on the federal level. Even before I was a member here, I assumed our government was corrupted at all levels way before Obama or Bush. I'd take a bet that you felt dirty for even walking those same halls.

Although the focus of the article was on the "screw Obama" and the apparent partisan war, I was more disgruntled at the the report of not being able to connect with our elected representatives unless there was something in it for them. At least in the past they have attempted to 'pretend' that we have some semblance of authority. With the bank bailout it became increasingly clear this is not the case as I still have yet to find an ordinary Joe in favor of it. Your report further cements that we as people really do not matter to them.

Clearly, the state of our government hangs only on the perception that the people retain control. Call it a pseudo-democracy if you need to. With reports such as these, it is clear that the Preamble to the US Constitution no longer applies. If the preamble words "We the People" are null and void, we have bigger problems as a nation than a partisan war.

Although I am optimistic, I see no other alternative other than a revolution or continuing down the path of totalitarianism. We as a nation have progressed far to long off the straight and narrow path of a republic and quickly are reaching the breaking point. That is not the fault of the (D) or (R)'s, but the people whom supported such partisan nonsense to begin with.

Realistically, a benevolent dictator fixing the system will not work, as power always corrupts. We can't call a Con-Con to fix it as the thought of one today gives me cold chills and abject terror in my soul on how butchered the Constitution would be after it. Revolution would be another scary thought, as with it brings a whole can of worms of potentials not to mention history is not kind in regards to democracies transitioning into another democracy, but unfortunately it is the best path.

The only thing we can do is hope a revolution that only pushes the reset button and reverts before the Lincoln power grab and ever increasing federalism. Then put in amendments like abolishment of congressional salaries that can only be amended by a 2/3rd's vote by the people, banning of lobbyists, focus back on state instead of federal government, etc.

Unfortunately it will never happen, but at least these reports will be a good archive of material for future generations on how not to run a democracy.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jam321
Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

Sadly, the only viable answer I can imagine is a patriot benevolent dictator who takes over for 4-6 years, cleans house, restores a modestly sized republic focused on representation of the people, and passes several laws to ensure it all stays intact before he/she resigns.

Honestly this has also crossed my mind. What would keep the dictator from not stepping down? What would keep the dictator from somehow weasiling his people in at the end and running for 'President'?


Besides a military coup backed by the people from this representative democracy?

Oh one more thing ...people only have power if we allow them to have it

[edit on 11-8-2009 by js331975]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by js331975]

Originally posted by Helig
Speaks volumes about my take on things but not a word said really surprises me, money has always and will always drive this ship unless something drastic and very unpleasant happens to change things, but thats not awfully likely.

So how did it feel to be so close to the snake's den SO?

Yes. "the LOVE of money, is the ROOT of all EVIL."

Originally posted by Helghast1
about the republicans with long knives comment, wasn't the same exact thing true the day George W Bush was elected to office?

And before Bush it was Bill Clinton. Remember when Hillary stood up and claimed there was, "A vast right wing conspiracy against her husband" and everyone laughed. That was in 1992 I believe. History later proved she was absolutely correct.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You will be assimilated, Hail Caesar!

Now you know we've heard this before...right?

Mr Lincoln himself uttered this remark...

Would you care to enlighten the masses?

My whole life, I have been a hard working, blue collar citizen. And I cannot say that I am a Republican or Democrat, I would consider myself an independant. It is a disturbing thought, that lobbyists control every aspect of the House and Senate. It is that same thought that makes me not want to vote. You can never believe anything your Representatives say, as they tap dance around the issues. It seems like you can never get a straight answer. As a 32 year old plumber, the idea that my voice will never be heard does'nt make any sense to me. I just hope that one day, all the B.S. between Republicans and Democrats will end. And maybe then some serious workwill be done. With all this being said, I really enjoyed reading this thread SkepticOverlord. Hopefully all the lobbyists,infighting and all-out smear campaigns will stop, before it is too late.

reply to post by N3krostatic


you could be on to something.. Me, I see an aimed "war" to discredit a president with a lot of aura that indeed, could be the catalyst for change(something that scares Washington's in-crowd to no end). For corporate America the easiest way to get rid of someone is discrediting. Obama will fail in 2012, GOP and big-bussiness can go on screwing hard-working Amricans. They need their "serf"class. Problem solved.

I say we desolve the legislative branch and perhaps the executive. And move to a virtual democracy over a secure network where EVERY US citizen has a voice and a vote. We have that capability.


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