64 Years ago, Yesterday... (Warning some graphic material)

IMO the US dropped the bomb primarily to show the Russians what we could do to them should they refuse to stay within the postwar boundaries agreed upon by the allies.

Unquestionably a land invasion of Japan would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives.

Attrocities were not limited to any single nation in WW2. Every major nation involved committed attrocities against civilian populations including the US and Britain.

It's important to also remember that the allies dropped millions of tons of bombs on German cities with no clear military targets. Dresden and Cologne come to mind. Both were firebombed and civilian casualties were over 50,000.

War is horrendous, whatever the weapons, whatever the cause. Wars have been fought mostly for 2 reasons; Economic and Religious. If we can address the root causes of war perhaps we won't be doomed to repeating a vicious cycle that never really has any "winners".

This is the most important job for our generation, to take our war industries and turn them into profit-making industries that make items that useful to people instead of deadly. Peace to all.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


I would favor a military Olympics with paintball, and other non lethality to have fights over and decide issues. This way, man kind continues to advance militarily, should he ever truly need it, and have peaceful ways of settling things. Military advancements remain the spearhead to advancing the civilian world.

Originally posted by jammer2012
reply to post by Exopolitico

 

Well, to be honest, I do not know too much about the Japanese trying to surrender weeks before we dropped the bombs. From the history I know, that was never the case. It took the second bomb to get them to surrender.

History is told by the winners. Also, the first casualty of war is the truth.

Cheers.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Exopolitico]

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst



I think the sad thing is .... Japan had already surrendered before the bombs were dropped. ... but the US wanted revenge for Pearl Harbour, ... as well as being able to test the new weapon on a population.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by IntastellaBurst]

Can you back up that with facts? If Japan had already surrendered then it this would be a war crime committed by US of enormous proportions..........

reply to post by Gorman91

American lives were more important than Japanese ones.

If the U.S. was forced to invade the Japanese mainland, perhaps many more Japanese people would have died. I hate that nuclear weapons were used. I hate war. But the sad fact is that Japanese and American lives were saved.

The Japanese people don't hate us for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, so far as I can tell. So, what is the problem here?

My great-grandfather hated Japanese or gooks as he called them. He was on a ship that was sunk by the Japanese and only a handful of the crew survived. Now I am married to a Japanese.

Want to know something a little ironic? My wife's family name is Nakajima. There was a little company called the Nakajima Aircraft Company (中島飛行機株式会社 Nakajima Hikoki Kabushiki Gaisha). Take a look at what they made . My family accepts my wife. My wife's family accepts me.

Nuclear weapons are evil, I agree. I think the original point of this thread was to remember the horror that can be brought on by these weapons.




[edit on 7-8-2009 by tamusan]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

A very important thread and IMO proof that those in power will always be willing to kill innocent civilians and have NO discretion whatsoever when it comes to to slaughtering them.

Had these bombs not been dropped and had the invasion been launched as scheduled, combat casualties in Japan would have been at a minimum of the tens of thousands. Every foot of Japanese soil would have been paid for by Japanese and American lives.

www.freerepublic.com...

In war civilians get killed, that is a fact. The fact that the USA dropped two Atomic bombs on Japan ending the war, saved many more soldiers as well as civilian lives.
Sometimes "Those in power" make the correct decision to save lives, be it military or civilian.

Like most left wing moralists reserve all the their outrage against the
US for using these weapons to put end to slaughter

Apparently forgot about RAPE OF NANKING where Japanese raped, pillaged
and murdered some 100,000 Chinese

Or BATAAN DEATH MARCH where tousands of American and Filipino
prisoners were marched 85 miles without food/water - anyone who
could not keep up was killed - thousands died

Or other atrocities too numerous to list here committed by Japanese

We could go into the B29 raids against Japan

On night of March 9-10 some 325 B29 raided Tokyo dropping incendiary
bombs, which combined with strong winds burned out 16 sq miles of the
city and killed by Japanese estimate 83,000 (some go as high 100-125,00)

For next 6 months B29 burned out every Japanese city over 30,000
killing hundreds of thousands

Some much that literally ran out of targets to bomb

It is any more evil to blast a city with incendiaries vs nuclear weapons

Despite this the Japanese refused to surrender

By 1945 US had imposed a blockade so tight that Japanese in Korea were
roping togather drums of rice and tossing into strait between Korea-Japan
in hope that current would carry them to Japan

If war had not ended millions would have starved over winter of 45-46


Have to laugh at ingorance of most who cry over Hiroshima/Nagaski
and forget everything else

It's weird, I didn't see this displayed in any of the MSM, but I'm willing to bet than on the 11th of September I'm gonna be exposed to more 9/11 documentaries.

...And I'm not even bloody American.

I'm as anti-imperial America as the next guy, but i'm afraid that on this one I've got to agree with the dropping of those two bombs.
This was the last "just" war that we were involved. We weren't fighting for oil, somebody else's riches or on some ideological or religious crusade. It was total war and a fight for our survival. The dropping of those two bombs shortened the war and sent a powerful message to the russians and in my opinion to the americans as well. Due to the imense death and destruction caused by those weapons we were able to enjoy the "pax americana" that followed and although the cold war and wars by proxy that ensued between americans and russians were bad, they were preferable to a repeat of the 2nd world war.
As for remembrance, I don't really see much point in making such a big fuss about it. It's sad that it has happened but it's history and it's over. Or should we have a special day for the atrocities commited during the crusades, another for Genghis Khan, one more for Pol Pot, another for Stalin, Hitler, etc...?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

I would favor a military Olympics with paintball, and other non lethality to have fights over and decide issues. This way, man kind continues to advance militarily, should he ever truly need it, and have peaceful ways of settling things. Military advancements remain the spearhead to advancing the civilian world.

I like your way of seeing things Gorman. That does remind me that some 60% of all university research in the US is paid for by the DOD. Wouldn't it be great if all that research went into improving lives instead of weaponry?

Originally posted by whoshotJR
I agree that its sad people forgot and little is said about it being the 64th anniversary of the bombing although once something passes more then ten years people generally don't talk about it unless it a 5 year mark.

I don't agree with "250 thousand innocent men, women and children.".

It was war and they were killing innocent men and children also, why does it make the US monsters because they won the war? You win a war but blowing up the other person or disabling their ability to continue to fight.

I don't really know where people got this idea that in war people shouldn't die unless they are in uniform but it doesn't happen that way. War is sick and twisted and causes pain and suffering but it's also about domination and each side doing just about anything they can to win over the other at any cost. In this case we had the bomb before they did so we won.

We didn't win because they were more merciful and caring. If given the chance they would have wiped the west coast off the map and we would have been the ones in their position.

Talk about the remembering for the loss of life but don't look to gain much support for your effort with a post like that. War sucks but its reality.

I agree with your quote and would like to add to it. In bombing Japan the way we did it was calculated to save lives because we were going to invade Japan. More lives would have been lost than that. The Japanese propaganda inside their own country painted americans to be blood sucking vampires and that its better to commit suicide than to be captured. If we invaded Japan each town we took over the people would have committed suicide. Preliminary invasions of islands taken over by american fleet had Japanese people running in total fear jumping off cliffs thinking that the americans were going to torture and rape them. here is some facts from wikipedia

After six months of intense fire-bombing of 67 other Japanese cities, followed by an ultimatum which was ignored by the Shōwa regime, the nuclear weapon "Little Boy" was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on Monday,[1] August 6, 1945, [2] followed on August 9 by the detonation of the "Fat Man" nuclear bomb over Nagasaki. These are to date the only attacks with nuclear weapons in the history of warfare.


We warned Japan, we gave them an ultimatum. We bombed them for 6 months in 67 other cities they still wouldn't give up. It was either Invade and conquer or Drop 2 bombs and cause them to surrender through the devastated destruction power these bombs do. Keep in mind Japan attacked pearl harbor unprovoked killing thousands. Japan had the greater Sin, they deserved what they had coming to them. Remember whatever the governments do can cause suffering to the people or prosperity in this case the government of Japan decided to side with Evil because of that their people suffered. Its the government of Japan thats at fault.

Wouldn't it be great if all that research went into improving lives instead of weaponry?

reply to post by Asktheanimals


If there was such a thing as a perfect world, that would be more than a few steps in the right direction. I hope there is even a slight glimmer of this type of progress on the horizon before I die.

reply to post by Oatmeal


Many of the power Elite funded both sides of WW2. The truth is we could have bombed military or rural targets with minimum civilian casualties and it would have just as easily ended the war (when they saw what the atomic bomb could do) and even if it didn't end the war to drop them on less populated areas we would have just fought it out honorably, soldier to soldier with people who volunteered to die the way war is meant to be fought. You cannot wipe away the blood of thousands of innocent people and children by saying "Well it ended the war didn't it?"

The only reason the bombings aren't remembered as the horrific deeds of wicked men is because Hitler's secrets were coming out and the things he did were far worse (even though he got nearly all his ideas from the AMERICAN eugenics movement)...

Ignorance denied...

I just gotta point this out again...

Japan was TRYING to surrender AND keep some dignity...

They simply didn't understand that we weren't bluffing, we actually wanted them to give us the opportunity to nuke them...

reply to post by Jezus

Japan was TRYING to surrender AND keep some dignity...

I keep reading that in this thread. Where is the credible proof? I never heard that they were trying to surrender before the bombs. Russia was trying to get them to surrender. Japan was not begging to surrender, nir did they have any intention so far as I can tell. I've studied history from an American and Japanese point of view, and never heard of it. I also just asked my Japanese wife, and 2 Japanese exchange students who currently live with me. They never heard that the Japanese were trying to surrender before the bombs either.
It went like this:
US: Surrender
Japan: No thanks
BOMB 1
US: Surrender
Japan: No thanks
BOMB 2
Japan: YOU WIN!!!

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Many of the power Elite funded both sides of WW2. The truth is we could have bombed military or rural targets with minimum civilian casualties and it would have just as easily ended the war (when they saw what the atomic bomb could do) and even if it didn't end the war to drop them on less populated areas we would have just fought it out honorably, soldier to soldier with people who volunteered to die the way war is meant to be fought. You cannot wipe away the blood of thousands of innocent people and children by saying "Well it ended the war didn't it?"

It would not have "just as easily ended the war." The Japanese followed the concept of Bushido. Meaning it is more honorable to die than to surrender. The Japanese were training all of their citizens, women and children, to defend the homeland from invasion. To have "fought it out honorably" would have cost many Hundreds of Thousands of lives, both military and civilian. The only "wiping away of blood" would be that those who died in the Atomic Bomb attacks, died to save many, many other lives, that were spared because we did not have to invade Japan. War is hell. People die. Many of your Power Elite probably made some money. They always do in war, somebody has to manufacture the weapons. But, we didn't start this war, we just finished it.

Originally posted by silo13
Not you, or anyone has the right, in the name of *war* to rename a child anything other than innocent. No one has that right.

Well spoken.

Do not forget the other hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians who died through firebombing.

reply to post by Jezus


They were in fact negotiating with the Russians. The Japanese wanted the Russians to come in on their side. The Russians refused, and invaded Manchuria after the first bomb. The Japanese were very slick in their negotiations. They wanted Russia to approach the Allies with "their" peace terms. They wanted to keep all the territory they conquered, keep their military government and keep their Emperor in place. This was the Russians they negotiated with, not America. The Russians refused and invaded. Sure the Japanese were trying to surrender, but on their own terms. Until the second bomb hit. Then they surrendered.

reply to post by YourForever


What of the hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Korean women and children? Are they not innocent too?

reply to post by IntastellaBurst


Did Japan surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped?
In: History Politics and Society [Edit categories]
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Answer

no, but they were in the process of putting together a surrender "package", the only main sticking point was that they wanted to keep their emperor(sp?), and America refused...Ironically, after the bombs were dropped, Japan unconditionally surrendered only to have the americans allow them to keep Hirohito as head of state, though his official powers were drastically reduced.

No Surrender
The Japanese military leaders were not considering surrender. They were preparing a last-ditch defense of the home islands using old women and children with rocks and clubs if necessary. Only when they realized that the US had the capability of totally annihilating their culture with the atomic bomb (they didn't know we only had two) did they consider surrendering, and even then some of the leaders tried to prevent the Emperor�s surrender message from getting to the US.