US Torture (warning, graphic)

Originally posted by Seekerof
reply to post by PullThePin

 

Do I really need to post up pictures to prove the opposing points that I, as with others are making? Wait, have you ever condemned the actions of those 'we' are allegedly "torturing"? Of course not, you guys are too busy defending their alleged humane dignities and rights, all the while failing to concede the fact that if they had an opportunity to defend you and consider your humane dignities and rights, they would remove your head, kick your lifeless body around, and spit to the four winds while praising Allah that you are an infidel not deserving of anything but what you received. Irony, huh?

Sorry I believe everyone has human rights no matter where they come from, what they do or what they believe in.

I never said I don't condemn their actions, just that I believe everyone should be treated fairly.

reply to post by WhatTheory


Article 6 of the Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Which includes the following:

Convention Against Torture signed by President Ronald Reagan:

"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture" and "an order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture" (Art. 2 (2-3)). "

Torture is illegal.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
[
Since Congress knew and approved of waterboarding, it's NOT against the Constitution or illegal or anything of the sort.

Congress did not approve of waterboarding. Show me the legislation. This was presented to a committee in Congress but was never
"approved" by Congress. It was only presented to 5 members of Congress.

reply to post by WhatTheory
Torture is wrong period.

No ifs ands or buts for any reason.

I'm dying to ask you a question. Do you call yourself a Christian?

What would your Jesus Christ say on this?

I'm not even Christian or Muslim, or Jewish or Hindu and I can see how very wrong on many levels torturing another being (any being) is.

Once you cross that line, you are no longer a civilized humane being you are simply put a primitive and mindless savage.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I'm dying to ask you a question. Do you call yourself a Christian?

What would your Jesus Christ say on this?

I don't know what Jesus would say because Jesus did some violent things like the killing of all first born sons.

I wouldnt call this torture. What a misleading and bogus thread. This is a failure of the day.

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by WhatTheory

 

Article 6 of the Constitution:

Nice try, but I don't think so.

reply to post by WhatTheory


Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

You're wrong.

reply to post by Divinorumus


This is what I said in the other torture thread:

I have a uncle in the National Guard and the thing about torture is if you torture someone long enough they will say whatever you want them to say just to stop being tortured. Torture is not effective and should not be deemed legal as we should not allow ourselves to bring our moral standards to the level of our enemies. We should differ from our enemies. If we are to be better we must act that way even with how we treat who we hate. If they must be killed then so be it but torture is IMHO BS either way.

Torture is nothing more than a justification of someone that has power issues in many cases. I say if they know something, put a bullet in the knee. If afterward they don't talk kill, them.

Yes you and I are pissed about their actions and want to torture them but should we really move into the same primal state they exhibit?

reply to post by Malcram




There are lots of forms of torture its a matter of severity , taxes for one the last vestiges of slavery , IRS audits , police drug raids gone wrong because of a wrong address , being in a cage for years because someone sold drugs to someone who wanted them, being tasered by a tax leach cop on a power trip , you name it torture is all around us its just a matter of what society tolerates .

Originally posted by Malcram
Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

You're wrong.

Good grief!
You do understand that is for criminals in the U.S. who are U.S. citizens right? That has to do with the U.S. judicial system. The eighth Amendment has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Forgive me for providing most of the content of this post in quotes.

America is more than a nation, it's forged of ideals, the 'grand experiment'; we have a long history of finding torture disagreeable.

"The very idea of humane warfare in modern times started here in the United States," notes Scott Horton, an international law expert who is president of the International League for Human Rights.

"We set down the ground rules," concurs David Rivkin, a contributing editor at the National Review and a former Justice Department lawyer under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. "And the rest of the world followed."

In 1776, American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."

Washington's Crossing," by historian David Hackett Fischer

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.” George Washington

"I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed." John Adams

President Lincoln instituted the first formal code of conduct for the humane treatment of prisoners of war in 1863. It denied any form of torture or cruelty against prisoners.

General MacArthur implemented the Geneva Convention before we had even signed them.

During the Vietnam War, we treated the Viet Cong prisoners under the Geneva Convention even though legally they didn't have to.

Again, we do the right things because they're right, not because they make our lives easier. If we lose our principles and wallo in the filth that is the path of the end justifying the means, then the terrorists have won, they've destroyed us from within.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
If these creeps had murdered your son or daughter in cold blood, would you still weep for these sacks of scum? Torture not only can extract information, it serves as a deterrent to those that are thinking about committing cold blooded murder in the future. Let those pictures serve as a warning to others that think they have nothing to fear or loose when they murder the innocent in the name of whatever b.s. they believe and feel justifies their acts and actions.
[edit on 24-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

If it was your son or daughter being tortured, would you still support these sacks of scum? Torture not only can extract information (some of it not even true, as the pain of relentless torture on a day by day basis would probably have YOU admitting you shot JFK aswell as everything else).

Let these pictures serve as an example of how equal you are to the very terrorists you wish to eradicate. You are no better than the people you worry about, and further than that....

You are a stupid fool to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I'm dying to ask you a question. Do you call yourself a Christian?

What would your Jesus Christ say on this?

I don't know what Jesus would say because Jesus did some violent things like the killing of all first born sons.

Jesus violently killed first born sons? I must have missed that.
That was King Herrod, not Jesus. I'm a heathen pagan and even I knew that.
I doubt if I can take anything you say seriously after that one.



[edit on 24-4-2009 by whaaa]

Truth is truth, but you should also prominently post photos and videos of the people that have been beheaded by Islamic Fascists. Torturing is one thing, but watching and listening as a person's throat is slowly cut and gristle and bone are cut through...well, that's another thing altogether. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Udanax]

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I'm dying to ask you a question. Do you call yourself a Christian?

What would your Jesus Christ say on this?

I don't know what Jesus would say because Jesus did some violent things like the killing of all first born sons.

Jesus violently killed first born sons? I must have missed that.

I doubt if I can take anything you say seriously after that one.

I guess you did miss that. Do some reading before making stupid comments.

Scripture clearly states the death of Egypt's first born children by the hand of God as their punishment. And NO, I'm not talking about King Herrod.

[edit on 4/24/2009 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by Highground

Originally posted by smallpeeps
"All soldiers of the US must now be aware that they will suffer harder at the hands of the enemy thanks to the actions of their government in using torture, BUT that is an acceptable evil, which the infantry must shoulder, to preserve American way of life. If they get drills inserted in their bones and flesh, it is so that "Others may live". Even if they feel more fear and pressure in the event of their capture, it is the correct path which we have chosen in being torturers because it will preserve our nation, though it may create hell for the average captured soldier. It is more important for us to create the atmosphere of fear for the enemy, than to make it easier on the actual fighting American soldier who risks capture."
Is that how you'd phrase it, more or less?

I think it gets harder to suffer more than having your body set on fire, dragged through the dirt streets, tethered to a jeep by your head, and then your desecrated body hanged from a bridge. I think it is a little harder to suffer more than being starved, catching dysentary, being burned with cigarettes, appendages cut off, bamboo shoots shoved up fingernails. They have no farther they can go. We do. That is the difference. We are still "tame" according to them. Where's the outcry that the VCs tortured our soldiers? That the Somalis, Taliban, and AQIZ torture our soldiers? Oh, we do it to them, so it's okay to do it to us. Is that correct? Isn't that as hypocritical as saying, "They do it, so why can't we?"

Originally posted by audas
Soldiers are soldiers because without doubt they are the most intellectually challenged of us all - it is an historical fact, the poorest, most ignorant and ill educated are the cannon fodder of history. The intelligent ones are those who send you there, or argue against it from the halls of academia.

You are quite arrogant, aren't you? Again, I am a college student. I am also a soldier. I resent your implication that I am "poor, ignorant, and uneducated." Perhaps you are the ignorant one here.

Originally posted by audasBravery and loyalty are not noble causes, they are not worthy, they are simply there to con you into doing the evil deeds of by men blinded by power.

You are also ignorant if you feel that ANY American soldier will tell you he is brave. He is simply performing his duty. Bravery is going above and beyond the call of duty, not performing what you signed up to do. No soldier would accept you calling them "brave," nor would they expect you to. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Originally posted by audas
Every lowly grunt always believes their cause is just, their nation the greatest, their purpose righteous, yet how can every war, every side, the tens of thousands of ideological positions all be the one truth. They can't.

Seems like you follow the same philosophy.

Originally posted by audasSo you are not better than anyone else becuase you are American, you are not wiser becuase you have been used by people more cunning than you, and you are not nobler because you have fallen victim to histories greatest disease and murdered for the just cause.

No one said any of this. No one assumed this, except you. Perhaps you are envious or have some sort of complex?

Originally posted by audas
Do you wish the American journalist in Iran be tortured like this ? The two women in North Korea ? I doubt that - what you have no idea about (amongst the many) is that JUSTICE is UNIVERSAL -

So you're saying that it's justice if I they do it to us, but if we do it to them, it's not?

The US is the number one aggressor on earth, has been for decades, has been involved in over 100 direct military offensive actions since the conclusion of WWII - the US does not defend itself against enemies - it is the enemy of all nations, it is the purveyor of terror, the usurper of peace, the destroyer of liberty - it is the exporter of torture, defiler of human rights - the united states of America is the epitome of evil - it is considered the most nefarious country on the planet by all and sundry - these are indisputable facts.

Calls to bravery, justice, loyalty, defender of freedoms, are all grotesque distortions of reality.


If the people of earth refused to obey their dictators, if citizens refused to take up arms against each other then their would be no war. To lay claim that others would take advantage of this is simply evil - as the whole world has been pleading for peace, desperate for a calm to descend upon their lives, a pause in the horrors of violence, never does it come as they defend themselves endlessly from the Anglo American evil lust for violence. The planet arms itself in ready defence from you.

Their is no honour, or bravery, or righteousness when you are the aggressor, when you are the purveyor of evil, the harbinger of death - and that is exactly what America is.

The Anglo American unquenchable thirst for murder has caused more civilian deaths than all the tyrants combined - you are the enemy, you are the heart of darkness, you are the tyranny of humanity.

This is for us to decide - the victims of your blood lust - it is not for Americans to judge themselves, the judgement of your actions is reserved for the rest of us - the observers. Self judgement and self assessment will only ever lead to self congratulations.

Taking pride in being the most aggressive, violent, oppressive, antagonistic nation to have ever existed is in no way intelligent - assisting in the murderous campaign is not intelligent, and believing it is righteous and brave to lay waste to defenceless families from the safety of the armchair certainly not intelligent.

The one right the world has which can never be taken away is our right to judge you for your actions - and this is how you are judged. Evil.

reply to post by Udanax
Then you sink to "their" level.

If we all sunk to that level what kind of world would this be?

Things aren't always what they seem.

Read Dark Rivers of the Heart by Dean Koontz.

I only saw one...

Disgusting...

And this is for "Liberty, Prosperity and Peace" ?...



Only fools would believe that. When you fight against a monster, you have to avoid becoming what you're fighting against.

Those pictures are not "Extremely Graphic", labelling them as such will stop people from seeing them.

They are certainly offensive but not graphic.

People really need to see this stuff and see what their country is doing on their behalf.