US Torture (warning, graphic)

It is called war. You fight to win, because loosing just makes you appear weak and opens you up for more attacks. There shouldnt be rules to war. Its supposed to be brutal. Your goal is to impose your will on the other side by giving them so much pain they cannot sustain it. Your goal is to do that before they do it to you. There is no room for being nice to the enemy.

What do you think would have happened to our country in WW2 if we tried to play nice? We firebombed cities with the single goal of killing and wounding as many of their citizens as possible. We nuked entire cities. Our soldiers killed potential POW's because they didnt have the time to screw around dragging them back to some base. We did all of this, because if we didnt do it first it would have been done to us. It is called war.

When I watched 3000 americans die in one day, and I watched Nick Berg and others get decapitated by these animals, then I dont care what our Military or Intelligence people do to win. Loosing is way too costly. Do you want your families killed, your wives and daughters raped, your country destroyed? If you dont then you better set an example that your country is not to be screwed with unless the enemy wants the wrath of hell to befall them.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by justsomeboreddude]

[edit on 24-4-2009 by justsomeboreddude]

Good

reply to post by jaamaan

reply to post by justsomeboreddude


Yee Haw Brutha!!!

Who we fighting again and why?

When America's military begins to weaken and your troops and innocent tourists and journalists are taken and tortured overseas, please just sit back and say 'well they are only doing it because we are at war. Anything goes in war'.

Why?

Because that is what you are doing now.

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Karma will turn around to bite America in the ass soon enough, so don't come crying then.

You condone it now, you condone it then.

There is no justification for torture. If we use it, we descend to the level of those we accuse of terrorism. Then what are we fighting for? If we torture, America has already lost.

Most of these pics are from Abu Ghraib. While events thre were deplorable, it should be noted that this mistreatment wasn't "officially" sanctioned - meaning a few, low-ranking soldiers were prosecuted for these crimes, leaving their superiors free to continue.

One of the pics looked like it might be from Vietnam. I didn't see much evidence of torture in that one - for all I know, the soldiers were trying to give water to a fallen comrade, or maybe even an enemy soldier.

So, while these photos were inflammatory, they don't actually depict the torture that was officially condoned by the US Government. Their purpose is to inflame passions, not provide factual information. They are propaganda.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
When America's military begins to weaken and your troops and innocent tourists and journalists are taken and tortured overseas, please just sit back and say 'well they are only doing it because we are at war. Anything goes in war'.

Why?

Because that is what you are doing now.

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Karma will turn around to bite America in the ass soon enough, so don't come crying then.

You condone it now, you condone it then.

That is exactly what I would say, because I am a realist. Do you really think if we be extra nice in war or when we are strong they are going to be extra nice when we are weak? I dont think so.

There is not such thing as Karma. That is just some BS somebody made up to make people feel better when they get the crap end of the stick.

The sad truth is that the ONLY thing that ever ends a purely religous war is when one side or the other is totally eradicated. We refuse to admit the truth that it is purely a religous war. Until the civilized world recognizes that it is and reacts accordingly we have not a chance of survival. THEY are committed to our destruction...period. We are being overcome by the barbarian hordes.

I shudder to think what atrocities THEY have done to our prisoners prior to slicing their heads off.

reply to post by justsomeboreddude


I don't think anyone is suggesting War should be a picnic, but war has some pretty clear definitions.

Who are we at war with right now? And why? What are we trying to achieve?

Each of those questions should have a clear and definite answer before we start trying to justify illegal acts by crying "war!!!".

Sick. Disgusting. Inhumane. I seriously cannot believe what I saw. Its absolutely ridiculous. And even if they are guilty, no wonder why they hate america so much. Look at the stupidity being displayed.

Its emabaressing for ME because this is the represention of us Americans.

These people are brought up being taught all this stuff. Its all that they know. Ide like to believe that we would actually try to rehabilitate these people and make people better, instead of torturing and leaving there mind set even worse off.

And the smiles on there faces while doing this? Are you kidding me?! REALLY?!

No matter how much bull#@#% you want to throw out there, and try to justify those actions, Two wrongs, Will never, Make a right.

Originally posted by Marek
reply to post by justsomeboreddude

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting War should be a picnic, but war has some pretty clear definitions.

Who are we at war with right now? And why? What are we trying to achieve?

Each of those questions should have a clear and definite answer before we start trying to justify illegal acts by crying "war!!!".

We are at war with AlQuada (sp?), because they have attacked us at least twice on our own soil.

We are war with Iraq because they invaded Kuwait which had the potential to disrupt oil supplies. They lost a war that was approved by the UN. They signed a peace agreement, which they could have refused to sign. They violated it repeatedly. Enough said.

Bush was wrong for setting the tone of the war by saying we were there to free people. That is bs. Nobody can trully set someone free, and it set the entire war up for failure. You dont make try to make your enemies look like friends.

If tomorrow, America would renounce terrorism..if we made a solemn promise to never torture again...and stuck to that promise...

Can you assure us that no American in any capacity, military or innocent civilian or intel officer, would ever suffer any form of torture at the hands of any group or individual anywhere in the world, ever again?

Because I'm being told that terrorists commit their atrocities because we are the bad guys?

Unfortuantly, torture is sometimes a necessary evil.

But 'posing' in front of them like you're taking a family photo is just insane... disgusting actually. Definitely not professionals.

Originally posted by Pharyax
Unfortuantly, torture is sometimes a necessary evil.

But 'posing' in front of them like you're taking a family photo is just insane... disgusting actually. Definitely not professionals.

I agree and I believe they were punished for that in a US military court. If I remember correctly.

reply to post by Seekerof


In Australia, today is ANZAC day; it's a day where we remember the sacrifice of those that died for this country. The day it commemorates was not some glorious victory, it was the death of tens of thousands of australians (bear in mind at the time that was a huge percentage of the population).

We all know that in some sense war is pointless and helps no-one except the big money...

The point I'm trying to get to, and please bear with me, is that the ideals we hold ourselves to, we should also hold others to...

Im no christian, but for one nation "under god" to go out and try to defend it's torture of people by saying that american standards dont apply to those who perpetrate these crimes is in the very least hypocritical and in the worst, sickening... a vomitous tribute to the people of america, administration and officers happily #ting on your flag in order to gain some kind of vengeance... and lets face it... thats what most of this is about... revenge. You killed 3 thousand of our people so by equal measure we kill 100,000 of yours... just so we can make our people feel safe.

Australia and America have had very strong relations for almost 70 years. Due to treaties in place we jump to each others defence when and if required. Thats a good thing. In a world of nations it is good to have brother nations... people that while we dont necessarily agree with you, would do almost anything for you.... that aside...

Lets just face it; torture is torture. There are proponents of this measure... but I would also assert that these are the same people that would make you register your dna, make you submit to lawless searches and make you do as you are told.

Defending torture of any kind simply makes you wrong. For those that claim some higher ground morally because they behead ours or blow themselves up killing others.

I find it repugnant and disgusting that the United States of America has sunken so low. In Americas grief it's leaders decided to throw conventional wisdom out of the window and # on the very ideals that make America America.

There is no utility in this action or any of its kind.

On a day where us Australians are honoring the sacrifice of our citizens for higher ideals, you should be mourning the America that used to be.... and fearing the USA to come.

David

I am sooo glad i am not living in the States....it really is in a bad way...

AmeriKa lost its moral compass long long ago..

Judging by the repugnant comments on here, so did quite a few of its' population..

Land of the Brave and the Free??

dont think so...

reply to post by jaamaan


First I'll say that I am politically agnostic. I see and acknowledge the arguments from both sides. Bottom line is that there are various systems put in place to keep the citizens of this country safe (flawed or unflawed as they may be). That includes our local non military law enforcement and court systems. I am a firm believer that all options should be explored to keep this country and it's citizens safe. I am also aware of the grim reality that no system or process is perfect and that there *will* be a margin of error, no matter how refined the process is. That reality exists in ANY process. I'm sure you experience it every day going to work.

Conservatives seem to think everyone is the enemy, and the liberals think that nobody is. It's a crock of rotting crap on both sides of the pool. People are wrongly convicted of crimes all the time in our own "conventional" criminal justice system. Where is your sympathy for them? I don't see legions of press and public shouting out for their liberation. Maybe a stray show or two on the Discovery network every year. Some of them face unbelievable horrors, arguably much more traumatic than the horrors of the scenes depicted in OP's post. I would bet my house that there are more horrible experiences than these in our own prison system. I know this post will draw flames, and I don't say this to be inflammatory. "War is hell" as they say, and to be quite frank modern American society is war in almost every respect, whether that be the war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on crime, war between the crips and the bloods, war between corporations, war on liberties and democracy, etc. It's reality folks. Wake up. Certainly doesn't mean I agree with it, but it is what it is. I fail to see the point of OP's post because it is just a dose of, well, reality (and very old news).

I feel an immense amount of sympathy and regret for all of those wrongly accused, incarcerated, tortured or in any other way harmed in the name of keeping this country safe, whether that be from theats abroad or local. I only pray that we vote people into office that are skilled in knowing who is innocent. However for those that are guilty; if my spouse, child, sister, brother or relative were a victim of the unspeakable crimes committed in the war zones abroad, I think they were too easy on them.

Just my three cents.

First of all I'm truly disgusted by some of the posts on this thread. MY GOD! The good ole' "They're terrorists so they deserve it. It leads to good intel". The good intel part is laughable. It works for Jack Bauer, it doesn't work in real life. History has repeatedly shown that torture leads to very little actionable intelligence and at best is used as PSY-OPS to the otherside. Die instead of being caught. Most active terrorist cells in the world have had some sort of foreign government support in their past. They are well trained on interrogation techniques and are motivated by the cause they are fighting for to resist interrogation and die for their cause. Look at what a tough time the IRA gave the British Empire. It's still not really over. SAFETY IS AN ILLUSION! The US and others need to learn that. You can't protect against everything without out stripping away everything you stood for. The only way to get I guess "Real" safety is to turn your country into a Police State which the US and UK are already guilty of. Be Honest!

So with many posters above saying it's OK to torture "Terrorists", is it then OK for North Korea, Iran, Syria and all the other "Axis of Evil" countries to snatch US citizens(terrorists from their POV) from around the world and US soil, torture them for their information on what the US is doing to them? I mean fair is fair right? You might have a far off chance of somehow being maybe, perhaps, knew someone or had heard something that they might find useful with enough torture. All is fair in love and war right? The US did declare war on anyone that's "Against them" didn't they? So in turn these countries have the legal right to capture, transport and torture US citizens because they might know something useful? Your countries are at war are they not?

Great logic people, you know who you are. When a child of yours, relative, friend is plucked off the street, taken to another country, held indefinitely without trial or formal charges, tortured repeatedly and probably never to be seen again. I hope you have the courage to keep your mouth shut and not cry outrage because of this. Oh and the reason this happened, a terrorist used your money transfer company that is legit to transfer money to another terrorist that you had no clue what it was to be used for. Many of the worlds Major Banks do this on a regular basis.

These statements make it clear that torture — which, in case we forget, is condemned not just because it is morally repugnant, but also because the confessions it produces are unreliable — contaminates almost the whole basis of yesterday’s charges, and casts doubt on at least some of the government’s assertions. In his tribunal at Guantánamo, for example, Mustafa al-Hawsawi admitted providing support for jihadists, including transferring money for some of the 9/11 hijackers, but denied that he was a member of al-Qaeda. Ali Abdul Aziz Ali was even more adamant that he had no involvement with terrorism. Although he admitted transferring money on behalf of some of the 9/11 hijackers, he insisted that he had no knowledge of either 9/11 or al-Qaeda, and was a legitimate businessman, who regularly transferred money to Arabs in the United States, without knowing what it would be used for.

Source













It's a dog and pony show plain and simple.

Originally posted by daptodave
Defending torture of any kind simply makes you wrong. For those that claim some higher ground morally because they behead ours or blow themselves up killing others.

Correct, no way around it.

Problem is once you start torturing and breaking the law, it is very difficult to go back. This is going to be remembered for a very long time...

Funny thing around here on ATS is that many "supporters" of this abomination go all huffy-puffy about it till I post about my experience as POW, torture methods used on me (including water boarding) and how terrible it really was.

Some even, caught in the moment of confusion, feel sorry for me, go figure, and then few pages later, the same dumb ass defending mantra begins, because, apparently, torture is wrong, but not on these terrorist guys, as a matter a fact, it's necessary.

And then, there is even higher level of wrongness of torture, and that is when done to US soldiers and citizens.

It's a very confusing and complicated issue (allegedly)

What kind of people are able to do the actual torturing and come up with these methods too making someone suffer. The mental health of these personnel have to be questioned.

Besides, torture almost always produce fabricated information to begin with. People getting tortured come up with anything they can just to get out.

You Librerals want to see gruesome and Torture you choose Water Boarding or what you would face as an ameircan capitive to the taliban.

www.liveleak.com...

Very graphic much much more graphic then any of these photo's I have to go puke now!

you all wan't to see just how far the seperation is between what we do to captivives and what these islamic nuts do watch this video of Nick Burg being beheaded and tell me you wouldnt rather have water poored on your head!

[edit on 4/25/2009 by Verd_Vhett]