US Torture (warning, graphic)

Originally posted by Divinorumus

Originally posted by mike dangerously
Of course,those who support torture,hide behind patriotism and claim that the ends justify the means.

Well, that wouldn't be me, I'm the most unpatriotic person I know, I despise patriots, it's borderline racism, just more of that get to the back of the bus (or where we think you belong) b.s. I'm for a ONE World Order, without border and fences and all these nationalist gangs and gangsters (a.k.a. flag waving bigoted patriots), but that's an entirely different issue for another thread.

Listen, to all those that keep saying "How do you know they are guilty," all I can say is when a soldier pulls the trigger and KILLS someone on the battle field, was THAT PERSON they slaughtered tried and convicted in a court of law, found guilty, and sentenced to DEATH? Murder is a lot worse than just torturing a bad guy for a while. I'd rather have water poured over my head for a while than to be MURDERED. Those people that do that torture business might be somewhat sadistic, but they aren't murderers like your soldiers are, soldiers that also drop bombs on the heads of the innocent TOO. Murderous soldiers are a lot worst monsters than those interrogators are, they don't even give the enemy a chance to speak before slaughtering them.

Heck, about a year ago I came down with a horrible lung infection and ended up with lungs filled with a green stinky slime and spent 4 days suffocating until they operated and performed a thoracotomy operation on me, and while that was a very unpleasant experience, comparable to waterboarding (except it was constant for 4 days without relief for even a moment), it wasn't THAT bad, it wasn't nearly as bad if I had ended up DEAD instead. A migraine headache, now that's torture.

And besides, isn't torture voluntary? Confess, OR ELSE, the choice is yours to make!

Do you even realize what torture will do to someone mentally? How can you say you would rather be tortured than killed if you do not even realize what the effects can be after it all takes place. Torture is BY FAR worse than putting a bullet through someones head killing them instantly in most cases.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by goat=man
reply to post by Divinorumus

 

Anyone will admit guilt under torture. There is no proof it extracts truth from those tortured. It sadism, pure and simple.

Haven't you heard the news lately? There is proof that it works.

Secondly, you are not trying to get a person to admit guilt, you are getting them to tell you some valuable information. We already know they are guilty. Lastly, you don't let them go after an interrogation. If the info is no good, you start over again and again until he gives you some valuable info or you believe he does not know any further info.

No WE DON'T know that they are already guilty.

How #ed up are you man? Oh if they don't give us good info lets just torture them again and again?

Torture is #ing sick and I can't believe how many people condone or defend its use.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by PullThePin]

Originally posted by jaamaan
Maybe you could post "your" definition of torture so we can see if what you are saying is right, or wrong.

Your ignorance in this matter is amazing.................

My definition of torture is what the romans did to Jesus..........

What the catholics did to Jews during the spanish inquisition....

What islam does to "non-believers"....

Listening to any words out of obamassiahs mouth........

These things are torture.............

But the truth here is to keep the hate for bush alive to hide the utter failure of obama...............this witch hunt will consume the media and hide the loss of more freedom.......

reply to post by PullThePin

Do you even realize what torture will do to someone mentally? How can you say you would rather be tortured than killed if you do not even realize what the effects can be after it all takes place. Torture is BY FAR worse than putting a bullet through someones head killing them instantly in most cases.

Do you even realize what the brainwashing that will allow you to strap a bomb to a child and send them into a crowded restaurant will do to a person? Because that's what we're dealing with.

Originally posted by heliosprime

Your ignorance in this matter is amazing.................

My definition of torture is .......

What the catholics did to Jews during the spanish inquisition

Waterboarding was a torture used in the Spanish Inquisition:

Spanish Inquisition

"A form of torture similar to waterboarding called toca, and more recently "Spanish water torture"....."The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning".[50] William Schweiker claims that the use of water as a form of torture also had profound religious significance to the Inquisitors.[51] - Wikipedia.

And it was also a torture used by the Khmer Rouge, as seen here

Hmm, Khmer Rouge, the Spanish Inquisition...the US is in really good company, isn't it?


[edit on 25-4-2009 by Malcram]

Who CARES what the 'other side' is doing?

Again, in simple terms, TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.

You cannot, for once second, truly think that because someone else does a despicable act, that it makes it a reasonable choice for us. Doing the right thing isn't about it being easy, it's about it being RIGHT.

And yes, I would still believe in doing the right thing even if it costs lives, and if my child were taken and killed, I would not condone the torture of their killer, because I'm not a rotten piece of filth that does things like that. I am a civilized human being, with the ability to reason and CONTROL myself. I would be in pain, and agonize and hate, but I would not destroy my soul by turning into the sort of creature that I hated.

Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture has said:


"It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering – one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state – in this case the US."

Oh come on now people, those aren't graphic pictures and that's not torture.
Sure there may be a little blood in one of those pics but at least the head was still in tact.

I've heard and read about college frat pranks that are much worse and given the age of the US military personnel involved, this is nothing more than hazing incidents.

I didn't see any pics of the much dreaded water boarding techniques we've all heard about.
Oh, that's right that's because water boarding was only performed on a total of THREE very special subjects, quite effectively and with great results too.
I think folks in Los Angeles should be very very grateful.

Maybe they should name a new street after "water boarding"?

Originally posted by Jadette
Who CARES what the 'other side' is doing?

Again, in simple terms, TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.

You cannot, for once second, truly think that because someone else does a despicable act, that it makes it a reasonable choice for us. Doing the right thing isn't about it being easy, it's about it being RIGHT.

And yes, I would still believe in doing the right thing even if it costs lives, and if my child were taken and killed, I would not condone the torture of their killer, because I'm not a rotten piece of filth that does things like that. I am a civilized human being, with the ability to reason and CONTROL myself. I would be in pain, and agonize and hate, but I would not destroy my soul by turning into the sort of creature that I hated.

So I should assume that you believe thier is a God that balances out all of the right and wrongs in the world?

Originally posted by Alxandro
Oh come on now people, those aren't graphic pictures and that's not torture.
Sure there may be a little blood in one of those pics but at least the head was still in tact.

I've heard and read about college frat pranks that are much worse and given the age of the US military personnel involved, this is nothing more than hazing incidents.

I didn't see any pics of the much dreaded water boarding techniques we've all heard about.
Oh, that's right that's because water boarding was only performed on a total of THREE very special subjects, quite effectively and with great results too.
I think folks in Los Angeles should be very very grateful.

Maybe they should name a new street after "water boarding"?

So you seriously try to say that what happened in the "Abu Ghraib" was less than a college frat prank?

Or do you think holding peole for over 5 years in prison without a trail and being supmitted to various foms of torture and sleep deprivation is less than some college pranks.

I am sorry but your post makes it very clear that you dont see, or dont want to see what is realy going on.

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by jaamaan
Maybe you could post "your" definition of torture so we can see if what you are saying is right, or wrong.

Your ignorance in this matter is amazing.................

My definition of torture is what the romans did to Jesus..........

What the catholics did to Jews during the spanish inquisition....

What islam does to "non-believers"....

Listening to any words out of obamassiahs mouth........

These things are torture.............

But the truth here is to keep the hate for bush alive to hide the utter failure of obama...............this witch hunt will consume the media and hide the loss of more freedom.......

No the truth is that the american government tortures innocent people from all around the world.
That is what will keep the hate for america alive.

Originally posted by jaamaan

Well i seriously doubt that you know what the stress position involves.
But i will spell it out more clearly for you.

Look at the pictures posted again please and see that these people are NOT just sitting on the floor "with both feet out in front".
I think you failed to notice that their arms are tied pretty far behind them and that their backs are bended backwards so it causes a lot of
"stress" on their arms and back in that "position".
Thats what you call a stress position.

And i realy do not think that the flight from Kabul to Guantanamo bay takes only "45 mins tops".

Again, with the information you present i seriously doubt that you where ever in the army or airforce, or what ever you like to call it.

Look I'm not here to argue with you or to deceive you. The people in those pictures are called Persons Under Custody, PUC for short. They are not under arrest, but are being transported for interrogation because they were caught in or involved in some action. To do this they are transported to a center where they have interrogators, polygraphers and interpreters. After the interrogation they are either placed under arrest and sent to a detention center or transported back to where they live.

To do this the aircraft used, as in the picture, is the C-130. All of this is done inside Iraq, and this aircraft is a tactical transport that would not be used to fly from Iraq to Guantanamo. A C-17 or a C-5 is the Air Forces’ long range transport aircraft. I spend 4 months at a time in Iraq doing this mission and many other different ones with over 5000 hours on these and 5000 hours on the retired C-141 aircraft with 28 years in the Air Force, so please understand that there are people here who just might know what they are talking about, and actually have real experiences.

Looking at the pictures they are strapped down with cargo straps with one in the back one front and one across the legs to secure/support them for flight, and I'm sure it is not very comfortable, but it is not some stress position to purposely cause pain or discomfort. These must be pictures early in the war since the floor of the C-130 is not covered in heavy plastic.

One of my good friends was a polygrapher over there many times and looking at those other pictures I can see most of them are a part of the collection of the guard unit at Abu Ghraib that was prosecuted for their actions, which I am happy they were. The two pictures where the prisoners are covered in crap if you look closely their hands are also covered with it and this is because they did it to themselves. Much like pissing and crapping on the C-130/bus etc some would cover themselves in their own crap as protested.

I’m not arguing we have not done any torture over there, I’m just explaining some of the pictures. I have 100s of horror stories of what the Iraqis would do to themselves in secular violence that makes anything we do or have done seem like kindergarten detention. Did we ever go over the line? You bet we did. Was it some kind of standard approach in treatment used? No it was not. When we did step over the line (or even way over) it was in isolated situations with many times accomplished by those without authorization to do it, or went pass what they were authorized to do.

I’m also not here to defend America, but I can say the people we are dealing with in this struggle are willing to go to any lengths to accomplish their objectives and that is something that is very hard for us with many ROEs to go up against.



[edit on 25-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
* Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
* Sodomization of detainees with a baton
* Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

Sergeant Samuel Provance from Alpha Company 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion, in interviews with several news agencies, reported the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators

(snip)

The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than September 11, 2001 attacks. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves. — Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, foreign minister of the Vatican.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by jaamaan

Well i seriously doubt that you know what the stress position involves.
But i will spell it out more clearly for you.

Look at the pictures posted again please and see that these people are NOT just sitting on the floor "with both feet out in front".
I think you failed to notice that their arms are tied pretty far behind them and that their backs are bended backwards so it causes a lot of
"stress" on their arms and back in that "position".
Thats what you call a stress position.

And i realy do not think that the flight from Kabul to Guantanamo bay takes only "45 mins tops".

Again, with the information you present i seriously doubt that you where ever in the army or airforce, or what ever you like to call it.

Look I'm not here to argue with you or to deceive you. The people in those pictures are Called Persons Under Custody, PUC for short. They are not under arrest, but are being transported for interrogation because they were caught or involved in some action. To do this they are transported to a center where they have interrogators, polygraphers and interpreters. After the interrogation they are either sent to a detention center or transported back to where they live.

To do this the aircraft used, as in the picture, is the C-130. All of this is done inside Iraq, and this aircraft is a tactical transport that would not be used to fly from Iraq to Guantanamo. A C-17 or a C-5 is the Air Forces’ long range transport aircraft. I spend 4 months at a time in Iraq doing this mission and many other different ones with over 5000 hours on these and 5000 hours on the retired C-141 aircraft with 28 years in the Air Force, so please understand that there are people here who just might know what they are talking about, and actually have real experiences.

Looking at the pictures they are strapped down with cargo straps with one in the back one front and one across the legs is to secure/support them for flight. These must be pictures early in the war since the floor of the C-130 is not covered in heavy plastic.
One of my good friends was a polygrapher over there many times and looking at those other pictures I can see most of them are a part of the collection of the guard unit that was prosecuted at Abu Ghraib, which I am happy they were. The two pictures where the prisoners are covered in crap if you look closely their hands are also covered with it and this is because they did it to themselves. Much like pissing and crapping on the C-130/bus etc some would cover themselves in their own crap as protested.

I’m not arguing we have not done any torture over there, I’m just explaining some of the pictures. I have 100s of horror stories of what the Iraqis would do to themselves in secular violence that makes anything we do or have done seem like kindergarten detention. Did we ever go over the line? You bet we did. Was it some kind of standard approach in treatment used? No it was not. When we did step over the line (or even way over) it was in isolated situations with many times accomplished by those without authorization to do it, or went pass what they were authorized to do.

I’m also not here to defend America, but I can say the people we are dealing with in this struggle are willing to go to any lengths to accomplish their objectives and that is something that is very hard for us with many ROEs to go up against.

I still stand by what i said, these people are in the stress position on these planes.
Because you denied that quite strongly i just could not take the rest of your post serious.
If you have served in the army you will know what the stress position can do to a human being and that it is used as torture specialy when one is put into it for a long time.

So it could be that you dont know about the stress postition, or that you just do not want to know in the context of this thread.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
When I watched 3000 americans die in one day, and I watched Nick Berg and others get decapitated by these animals, then I dont care what our Military or Intelligence people do to win. Loosing is way too costly. Do you want your families killed, your wives and daughters raped, your country destroyed? If you dont then you better set an example that your country is not to be screwed with unless the enemy wants the wrath of hell to befall them.

So what if every country in the world would think like that.
If you follow that logic than the US would be destroyed quite a while ago allready.
You nuke a country, they nuke you back, following your strategy, than the US would nuke them again, and bang an other nuke on the US.
Following your logic this would not stop until both countries are gone, or the world for that matter.

See the eye for an eye does not work in the end and that counts on many levels like torture for example.

So if your government goes around and releases the "wrath of hell" in different countries, what makes you think the "wrath of hell" will not fall on your own country one day.

Again the same goes up for torturing innocent people.

And by the way wasnt "Nick Berg" tortured to death "after" the US government invaded Iraq and Afganisthan and tortured and killed a load of innocent people.
Maybe they just followed your logic and thought, an eye far an eye, lets torture "Nick Berg" to death and show them "that your country is not to be screwed with unless the enemy wants the wrath of hell to befall them".

See it just doesnt work like that it will get us all killed.

Originally posted by jaamaan

If you have served in the army you will know what the stress position can do to a human being and that it is used as torture specialy when one is put into it for a long time.

So it could be that you dont know about the stress postition, or that you just do not want to know in the context of this thread.

First, get it right, I was in the Air Force not Army. Second, it is obvious you are so blinded by your views to even comprehend that just maybe everything wasn’t designed to torture as you must think. The Abu Ghraib situation was a terrible thing, and I hope everyone involved in it gets the maximum punishment, and I even wish they would get the same treatment they induced. It seems though most of your facts and convictions are all centered around that though, and because of that your views are so skewed with such bias that I see it is useless to maintain any form of an intellectual debate with you.

BTW, what makes you such an expert on stress positions? In my training I was put naked in a small box with water dumped on me ever hour for about six hours in 45 degree conditions. The stress position I was mainly but in was on my knees and forced to lean back very far for 30 minutes or more at a time. Was it painful? Yes.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

Here is an other "American Torture Gallery".

And for some people who requested this, there is some:
water boarding
tortured to death people
Electrocution while in the stress position
Sexual torture (Rape)

I am sorry i could not find any cut off limbs.

So in reality there is no denying that many people have been tortured while in custody of the american army and their allies.
There is plenty of evidence and the whole world knows it.
I gues it is mostly "some" american people that still try to deny these facts.

Personaly i am realy frightened of the amount of people trying to justify this horrific torture and my guess is that "most" must be terribly indoctrinated by all the propaganda over the last years.
Because i cannot believe that most of them could ever say some of the things they state if they have ever been in close contact with real torture.

Some would probably think i am an arab or some other kind of america hater.
And i will tell you now that i am not, i know quite some american people and i think most americans seem quite nice.
I am just realy dissapointed in the "land of the free home of the brave".

If i would be a soldier serving in the US amry to protect my country than i would be realy ashamed of my fellow men who commited these war crimes.
And i still dare to believe that most american soldiers are ashamed of these torture practices.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by jaamaan

If you have served in the army you will know what the stress position can do to a human being and that it is used as torture specialy when one is put into it for a long time.

So it could be that you dont know about the stress postition, or that you just do not want to know in the context of this thread.

First, get it right, I was in the Air Force not Army. Second, it is obvious you are so blinded by your views to even comprehend that just maybe everything wasn’t designed to torture as you must think. The Abu Ghraib situation was a terrible thing, and I hope everyone involved in it gets the maximum punishment, and I even wish they would get the same treatment they induced. It seems though most of your facts and convictions are all centered around that though, and because of that your views are so skewed with such bias that I see it is useless to maintain any form of an intellectual debate with you.

BTW, what makes you such an expert on stress positions? In my training I was put naked in a small box with water dumped on me ever hour for about six hours in 45 degree conditions. The stress position I was mainly but in was on my knees and forced to lean back very far for 30 minutes or more at a time. Was it painful? Yes.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

I dont care how you call the various departments of the US army, the me it is just an army of US men.

because of that your views are so skewed with such bias that I see it is useless to maintain any form of an intellectual debate with you

You just try to project your own skewed bias on me.
And i am debating you as far as i can see.
It just takes a lot of time to deal with the straw men you put up before i can reply to the more serious content of your posts.
We are on page 10 or more and we are still debating the stress position shown on the cargo plane pictures that you started around page 1.

These people are clearly in the stress position.
You are trying to say they only got transported for a time period of 45 minutes max while in these positions.
I dare say that it was much longer on many occasions, but i am quite sure you will debate me on that over an other 10 pages.
BTW i am not an expert on the stress position and i never claimed that, i am just not stupid and i know when i see one.

I am sure that you have to agree that what you went through in training was nothing(!) compared to what is provided in the torture evidence pictures.
But it must have given you some idea what it can do to a human being when they are put into it for several hours, or maybe weeks for several hours a day.

What alternative is there.

The man that will wipe out many ..and will do anything in his power to wipe you and your family out ..and your kind.....is not going to admit to what he has been up to ...

A necessary evil I think..look at how many have died by the hands of theses lunatics!!...a hell of a lot more than are in prisons!!....its a necessary evil and no matter how distastfull ..these people don't play by our rules...and that is why they are winning!!

Just my opinion!!

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude

So I should assume that you believe thier is a God that balances out all of the right and wrongs in the world?

No, my reference to 'soul' is only metaphorically. My point is not that 'God' will punish them, so I don't have to.