Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

Originally posted by cosmicpixie
I don't know why so many people STILL refuse to see that Satan was an invention of the bible writers based on the older Sumerian battle between Enlil (god) and Enki (god's adversary)

The Myth of Satan

The Origin of The Devil

Misunderstanding who Lucifer actually was

Or to view the evidence suggesting reincarnation WAS supported in the Bible


Reincarnation in the Bible

The above looks into the NT , but there is an even greater wealth of evidence within the books that were banned from making it into the final edit.

You are all going around in circles.

Satan wants you to believe he is an invention of the bible don't you see that was his greatest deception of man to convince the world he does not exist, so he can rule the world without opposition.

It’s clear that you have had some training in issues of biblical languages and translations but I would urge you to read scripture in context, not simply picking out one or two verses to make a broader point. Example is your reference to verses in Ecclesiastes 9. This is clear message in verses 1 to 10 of the importance of our work while we are alive, because after death our work here will be over. The point of view of the writer here isn’t a denial of any hope beyond the grave, or the location of those who are dead, but instead that we are to continue to live this life in accordance to the laws and will of God. Compare that to John 9:40 where we are once again instructed to work while we can, “for the night will come when no one can work”. Your effort here is interesting but misguided in that the focus isn’t to argue over semantics and names but instead the clear intention is to encourage the true believer to be hard at work for his God. I would say also that you need to apply this more balance approach at studying the scriptures, keeping them in context with the writer’s entire message, before diving into something that while may be very interesting has little to do with what is truly being said.

reply to post by Burginthorn


What you experienced is called a "Demon Attack" not hell, and the reason was because your roommate opened a channel to them with all his stuff on witchcraft. Not smart, not smart at all, they are real.

One person who became a christian told me this, "before I wasn't a christian, but then I saw my step-mother involved with the demons, because she was into witchcraft and all that stuff, many times too. All kinds of bizarre & scary stuff".

In the end he realized if they (Demons) actually exist, then God and the angels must exist as the counter to them. It was this that convinced him to become a christian, and he never has had issues with them again, because his father kicked the step mom out because she was doing this.

reply to post by one_man24


Ah, yes. Well that is a parable, and as such, when we read parables, we are not to take them literally, but find the Truth within the symbolic story. The reason Christ spoke in parables was to educate the ignorant and the gentiles who learned of Him. We should not take his parables as a literal and factual account of reality.

Matthew 13

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables . . . 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

The rich man's suffering was symbolic of his poor choices in life because he neglected his neighbor. He nor his brothers will know enlightenment because they don't listen to the words of the prophets. Their tongues will not be quenched (they will not be satisfied in spirit), and their flesh will be in torment (they will not know paradise) because of their actions.

Hope that helps!

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Avenginggecko]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


OP, You still have not addressed the passage from Luke Chapter 16 that I posted earlier. I am curious to know what your take is on these verses. How does this fit in with your idea of the aferlife?

[edit on 22-4-2009 by one_man24]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


What I experienced was the outer darkness.

Matt 25: 14-30


[edit on 22-4-2009 by Burginthorn]

reply to post by Shadow14


Funny, last night as I was reading about how the biography of Jesus was a rip off amalgammation of a dozen other gods before him who also were called the son of god, were born to a virgin, died on the cross etc...I read also about how when these curious similarities were pointed out in olden times the counter argument went something like, " Well the devil deliberately created those gods before the real one came along so that the people would not realize who WAS the real one when he really DID come".

Eh?


I bet you didn't even READ those articles, did you .

Alas, I shall find another thread to peruse , I can see I waste my time on this one. Enjoy your debate.

reply to post by Avenginggecko


Actually, Jesus spoke in parables so that only those who were meant to have a deep understanding of God's knowledge would get it. This is from Luke, a parallel of your matthew quote.

When he said this, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

“ ‘though seeing, they may not see;

though hearing, they may not understand.

These words were not describing the peril of the rich man, but the peril of the Jews at that time, and the perils of being of this world.
To quote from another source:

"Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest nor regard in the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy."

www.gotquestions.org...

This story was used to provide a picture of what your afterlife will be like if you choose to deny the gift God has given. Parables always contain a core truth, even if it is just a story. The core truth here is that if the rich man had heeded Moses and the Prophets, and had loved the Lord and His ways, he would have loved his neighbour as himself and comforted Lazarus when he needed it, even though he was a diseased ridden beggar, and consequently would have been given eternal comfort. The fact that the rich man actually asked for the beggar Lazarus to dip his diseased and disgusting finger into water and wet his tongue with it actually paints a picture of how terrible the rich man's torment was.

reply to post by one_man24

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nephesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nephesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.”
(2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na.
(3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,” as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.


I have done the research for you guys, an accumulation of years of study. Continue to believe what you always have, or perhaps now is the time, to at least try to imitate the 1st century Christians like those in Berea who Paul talked to. Any christian who is serious about their personal spirituality should.

Acts 17 verse 11
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The people of Berea were more open-minded than the people of Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive God's message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

The Berean Christians in the 1st century are an awesome example for 21st century Christians to follow, and I try to do so.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Short from God's perspective would be approximately a century or 100 years, but of course it could be a little less or a little more he is not bound to any specific number, you could easily add a couple of decades to that.

How do you know this? How do you know how God perceives time from His perspective? How do you know how this works in relation to human centuries or years or a couple of decades?

reply to post by Burginthorn


Thank you for sharing this.

reply to post by one_man24



That's right, parables do contain a core truth, and I believe we'll just have to agree that our sources and interpretations of the passages differ. I believe his parable was symbolic and Christ wasn't trying to show how the afterlife literally would be for those that sinned. The core truth to this parable seems to be that we need to heed the words of the all of the prophets in order to be saved and accepted by God...and anyone that does this can be saved.

According to the Bible, the old Prophets haven't been resurrected yet - they will be resurrected upon the first great resurrection. How could Lazarus fly in to Abraham's bosom if he hasn't been resurrected yet? How could Lazarus even be resurrected if Christ hadn't died yet for our sins? If heaven is supposed to be be eternal joy and perfection, how is it that those taken there could see and hear those being tormented in hell? Would you believe that you could live in eternal peace if you hear the screams and suffering of the damned?

Since parables are symbolic, I have to look deeper than simply labelling Lazarus the Jews and the rich man the gentiles. I actually believe it is reversed. The Jews were the ones whom feasted sumptuously every day, spiritually, because at the time they were the only people with the true religion. The gentiles had falsehoods and idolatry, which corrupted their bodies (temples) like sores. The Jews became self-righteous and began to glorify themselves and their blessings moreso than the true God who gave them.

Lazarus, meaning "one who is helped by God"...now on its surface it might seem obvious he means Jews, but who really was helped in the NT the most?

GALATIANS 3:6 . . . Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

So we see here another parallel with people being close to Abraham and I think it shows that this parable was about the spirit and not about actual torment. Lazarus was the gentile that was excluded from spiritual enlightenment, but who, through Abraham and the prophets, learned faith and mercy from God.

The rich man who dressed in purple robes never asked anything of pagan gods, they directly asked Abraham, which I believe shows that the rich man was in fact a Jew who couldn't understand why he had been condemned.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by Avenginggecko]

Originally posted by Shadow14

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

My theory - probably nuts, is that God did let Satan have the earth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that we are therefore living in Satan's kingdom, which is hell on earth.

Look around at all the evil and suffering in the world - Satan must be thrilled.

I beleive the same thing as u. You are correct God did let Satan live here after he was banished from Gods Kingdom but that will all change soon when he is banished from the earth and will no longer be able to deceive mankind.

No. There is no more hell on Earth than there is Heaven on Earth. What we get is a kind of mixture or balance of how the colour of each might sound when we smell it.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33



Even if we agreed that it was a parable ...that does not explain these passages .

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


If it was not literal why does it mention having two hands to go into hell into the fire that never shall be quenched ...And the worm dieth not sounds alot like their bodies wont die either ..in other words they will still feel fleshly pain as well as emotional spiritual pain ...

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Burginthorn

 

What you experienced is called a "Demon Attack" not hell, and the reason was because your roommate opened a channel to them with all his stuff on witchcraft. Not smart, not smart at all, they are real.

That's what I find interesting about Burginthorn testimony. His flat mate summoned legions but they weren't interested in him. Their attention was on the one who was silently praying.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Jesus is referring here to the "Second Death" that is death. This is the true death. Heaven is simply heaven. The lake of fire is for those who were wicked beyond saving and did not get saved. So they get to hang out with Satan, The Beast, and the false prophet in torment for eternity while the saved live out life as it should have been in the Garden of Eden in the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. This is "everlasting life" not the lie that the Church sells of when we die we either go to heaven or hell. The dead simply are dead, much like a wall is not conscious. This is in the Bible, and those verses are earlier in this thread.

[The dead simply are dead]

They may be just dead now ...and then when ALL the dead are raised at the great white throne judgment then they wont be just dead anymore
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.


The state of nothingness has to be ruled out because
How can you feel everlasting contempt and everlasting shame ..if when your dead your dead ..
But after the final resurection (after the thousand year reign ) .......they wont be just dead after that ..otherwise they would not feel shame and everlasting contempt unless they have a state of awareness ......

I like this post, but I think it misses an important point. The OP is hoping to show that the Bible itself doesn't support the notion of hell. That's fine, though I think the idea of being burned in a lake of fire is a fairly clear image of hell.

Much of the so-called "Christian" version of hell doesn't come from the Bible itself; it comes from Dante's Inferno, a work of fiction from the Middle Ages. Dante had a vivid imagination and described hell as having various "circles" of punishment, depending on the sins committed. Some of that seems to have made its way back into Christian thinking.

But the important point, I believe, is that there is no good reason to suppose that the Bible, alone among all the thousands of holy books in the world, is correct to begin with. Some Christians assert that the Bible is the sole, inerrant, eternal Word of God, and that all other scriptures are false. Of course, many Muslims make the same claim for the Koran.

In fact, there is no reason to believe that any holy book is the sole, inerrant Word of God. At best, they're inspired writings by human beings. Other human beings decided that these words were without error. But human beings are fallible.

One of Satan's tricks is to make us think there is no hell --no consequence for our sins. His whole goal is to get us to sin under our free will. He cannot force us to sin as then it's not a sin since it's against our free will.

Another is the belief in reincarnation, which doesn't exist. On the day of Judgment all souls are reunited with their bodies. If there was reincarnation, which body does the soul unite with? Another false belief. The idea here is "if you don't get it right the 1st time, no worries, you'll be reincarnated, so it's "ok to sin' in this current life and get it right in the next life.

Don't believe in the false belief that Hell doesn't exist. It does, whether it's here on earth, in the earth or on another plain. Some "Mysteries" will never be proven and that's for a reason ---faith.

It's all about getting us to sin under our own Free Will, for then it truly does offend God. Satan has many tools in his toolbox to get us to sin, and teaching that hell doesn't exist and that reincarnation does, are 2 tools that he relies heavily upon.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
[The dead simply are dead]

They may be just dead now ...and then when ALL the dead are raised at the great white throne judgment then they wont be just dead anymore
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.


The state of nothingness has to be ruled out because
How can you feel everlasting contempt and everlasting shame ..if when your dead your dead ..
But after the final resurection (after the thousand year reign ) .......they wont be just dead after that ..otherwise they would not feel shame and everlasting contempt unless they have a state of awareness ......

Wouldn't that be in reference to those resurrected who remain true vs. the ones who resurrected and then fell to Satan's influence after he was released from the pit to test us the last time?

The verse itself said "many" not "all" who sleep...so it also supports the fact of a dreamless sleep that's just null and not a place of fiery torment and abuse.

Edit to add: Shame and contempt aren't really the verbs to use for a place of agony and torment, are they? Shame and contempt are feelings that fall under the regret category...as in action and consequence.

Just my theory though! Great debate!

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Avenginggecko]