Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

reply to post by badmedia


We are really talking about the same things.

Do right and you are OK, do wrong and you are not.

But I really think that hell exists, and it is probably here and now.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

That is so funny - when you are older, you will lose that edge.

I wish you well.

I'm glad I'm amusing you. It's always nice to be appreciated.

Hell= Separation from God.

Here are some clues given by Jesus;

* I have torn down the veil in the temple

* Father forgive them for they know not what they do

* Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?

[edit on 22/4/2009 by teapot]

reply to post by teapot



Makes me think of "Oh Death, where is thy victory? Oh grave, where is thy sting?"
Or however it goes....
Wow I'm lazy....
It's in Corinthians I think....



[edit on 22-4-2009 by phoebeflakes]

A lot of Christians don't believe that you spend eternity in Hades, Sheol, [which are each simply holding places for the dead], Gehanna, or Tartarus. Reading through the Bible shows that those who reject God spend eternity in another place--the Lake of Fire--for eternity. The passage that it's spoken of in Revelation tells us that it burns with a flame that doesn't quench--forever. The Lake of Fire is also where Antichrist and False prophet are thrown after the Tribulation. Then 1000 years later, they're still there.

Someone said earlier that they thought it was interesting that Hades is mentioned in the Bible. When you think about it, it really isn't so much because the authors of the New Testament were using the term that was contemporary to them to describe the underworld, the realm of the dead.

I personally believe that Tartarus is a black hole, not Marianna's Trench, which was suggested earlier. I believe this because Tartarus is also described as a bottomless pit. Marianna's Trench is going to have a bottom somewhere. As far as we know, black hole's don't have a bottom. But, this is one of those frivolous things that are just fun to speculate about.

ATTENTION PLEASE

There's an interesting discussion going on here, and before it's overtaken by personal sniping, I'd like to remind everyone that we should address the topic and not each other. Please remember courtesy is mandatory, and maintain an atmosphere of civility.

For the record, any further off-topic remarks or personal attacks will be deleted and the member potentially subject to further action. Which no one wants.

Thanks, and carry on.

This is an old argument. I've seen several discussions on it. Question for the OP, How would you explain Jesus parable of the rich man and the begger Lazarus in Luke Chapter 16? Here ya go:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Three things are clear cut in this passage: the rich man is certainly dead, the rich man is being tormented in flame, and this is all because of his evil ways in life.

Originally posted by octotom


I personally believe that Tartarus is a black hole, not Marianna's Trench, which was suggested earlier. I believe this because Tartarus is also described as a bottomless pit. Marianna's Trench is going to have a bottom somewhere. As far as we know, black hole's don't have a bottom. But, this is one of those frivolous things that are just fun to speculate about.

I don't believe Tartarus is the Marianna's Trench either, the only reason I used it was for illustrative purposes, for that matter Satan could literally be confined to the earth's core and survive there because he is unaffected by physical things, the point is we really don't know the physical location of Tartarus.

As for the theory that hell separates us from God's love, that's wrong, Job is in Sheol right know, and he is not alive but in God' memory, God's loves him and will bring him back at the appointed time.

Some of you read the posts AND STILL cling to old style beliefs of hell when THE BIBLE clearly shows it to be something different than what the minsters teach, and standard church dogma.

As for hell on earth, incorrect, but the part about Satan having control is correct from Revelation 12 verse 7-12

NIV
The Vision of War in Heaven

7Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels fought back. 8But it was not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9The huge dragon was hurled down. That ancient serpent, called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, was hurled down to the earth, along with its angels.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say,
“Now the salvation, the power,
the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah have come.
For the one who accuses our brothers,
who accuses them day and night
in the presence of our God,
has been thrown out.

11 Our brothers conquered him by the blood of the lamb
and by the word of their testimony,
for they did not cling to their lives
even in the face of death.

12 So be glad, heavens, and those who live in them!
How terrible it is for the earth and the sea,
because the Devil has come down to you, filled with rage,
knowing that his time is short!”

Yes we are living in this time period where Satan has been removed from heaven from the war he lost, to this earth filled with rage, anger and bitterness. He has more control over this earth right now than he did, when offered Jesus via temptation all the kingdoms of the world for an act of worship.

Here is one reason why. while in heaven Satan was still recruiting angels to become demons, his focus was divided between the heavenly realm and the earth. After the war he wasn't able to do that any more that's why verse 12 says those that live in heaven are glad, Satan and his demons are gone.

Now the earth and it's people would have Satan's exclusive attention, and people wonder why things are so messed up on this earth.
Only one good point about it, the scripture say "his time is short". Short in relation to the many centuries of history that have already passed.
Short from God's perspective would be approximately a century or 100 years, but of course it could be a little less or a little more he is not bound to any specific number, you could easily add a couple of decades to that.

A snippet of my past ...

I was sharing a house with a guy who was into witchcraft. He had books, LOTS of books, about witchcraft and spells and was into some pretty dark stuff.

I on the other hand wasn't into that stuff, I wasn't into anything, but as a nightly routine I would say my prayers in my head, as my grandmother had taught me as a young boy.

I awoke one night and as I turned around in bed I found myself floating looking at myself asleep. Before I could fully comprehend what was happening, out of the corner of my eye I seen a small black shadow about the size of a tennis ball on the wall to my right.

Very quickly this shadowy thing got larger and in an instant I was literally pulled into it.

In an instant I was not on the earth or in this dimension, or whatever you want to call it. Its hard to explain, but I knew for a 100% certainty I was no longer in the world. It was a knowing, nothing more can be added to that, it was just fact, and I knew it.

The place I was in was utter darkness. This is going to sound crazy, and I'll try my best to explain it simply as I can.
This darkness was not empty, not like being in a darkened room, with a feeling of space, air, freedom around you. This darkness was all over me. Completely engulfed in it. It was suffocating, yet I knew it was endless and eternal.

I know that sounds crazy, but one of the strangest things about this whole experience was the knowing. Its this knowing without doubt, its final and you know and cant dispute it. Its not like "where am I?" or "How did I get here?" Its this strange knowing that this place is endless and eternal.

Now the bad part.

The darkness is alive. It is the most vile, terrible and scariest thing anyone would never want to encounter. I cannot say strongly enough how utterly terrified I was. The darkness is not one thing. It is many things. It is alive and filled with unseen things that in an instant started tearing, scratching, screaming - the screaming ....

If you've ever listened to a recording in reverse - that's some of it, part of it. Its like a thousand voices at once, all mixed up together, a most haunting and terrible sound. Hissing, teeth sounds, wailing, LOUD is an understatement. Just the noise there alone is terrifying.

But the most horrible was the touching. All over me. In an instant I was attacked. From all over. They were all over me everywhere. Pulling at me, scratching me, the worst was the bites, they REALLY hurt and I mean pain!
You cant run, there is no space, they are on you, and you are a part of them.

This will sound crazy but I am certain a short amount of time spent there and you become one of them. Simply from losing your mind. That's the best way to describe 'them' - being surround and attacked by things that have lost their minds. Like a chain reaction, all groping and tearing at each other in the darkness.

Imagine a mass panic, thousands of people gone insane confined to a small space - but see, that's not it. Its not a small place, you are no longer a body in that sense. You are a part of this darkness. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's what it is. Please understand this, there is NOTHING to see there. Complete and utter darkness. There is nothing but terror, fear and pain. There is NO LIGHT!

When I say there is no light, I don't just mean light to see with. Its so much more than that. There is no light. Do you understand what that means? I wish I could explain what that means, but there is no light in that darkness, none whatsoever. I cant explain it and its frustrating, but light is so much more than what we see with. I know that now. The light, of which we never comprehend in our lifetime is not there, and you will know it. All I can say on that is you are separated from the light. And believe me, it is a most terrible thing to know.

In a flash I was floating above myself again. I reached out and grabbed my body by the shoulders and pulled myself towards myself.
I awoke and could not scream, I tried. I could not speak and I could not move. My mouth was open and I tried to yell, but I was frozen in shock.
It took some time to get over. I literally shook and cried for hours afterward.

I was only in the darkness for a few seconds ....

reply to post by one_man24


I was just thinking about that scripture and was about to post on it ...you beat me to it ...good find ...........

So doesnt that rule out a state of nothingness ?

Also what about these passages
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Thanks. You beat me too. I was about to post those verses as well. lol
Found this website. Not sure what his theology is like, but he has some good things to say on this subject.

www.minuteswithmessiah.com...

I do not believe that satan has been totally kicked from heaven yet ..I dont believe that happens till he possess the Antichrist ...
The reason I believe this is because satan is our accuser ..he is before God accusing us and Jesus is before God standing up for us ..

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The above has not happened yet ......I believe he gets cast out when he indwells the Antichrist fully ...(when life is given to the image of the beast)
I believe this is when satan has been cast down completely ...and will no longer be able to accuse anyone before God ...which is why he goes on such a rampage on earth ....................and comes after those left on earth during the full reign of satan on earth .......

Here it shows satan standing before God accusing
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


And here ...
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

I believe satan still has access to heaven .......
PS >>>he is held back for now ....but soon will be let loose completely about midtrib ....

But I could be wrong ..


[edit on 22-4-2009 by Simplynoone]

I don't really agree with the OP.

Hell is really the separation from god.

Thats all.

People just twisted it

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by spellbound

 

Then he is not the ruler most high, master of all things etc etc. It makes no sense that on earth, God has no control when satan does. If this were true then he has no right to make miracles happen, as this world isn't his, it's Satan's.

Hi Welfhard! I just wanted to let you know what I've learned about this situation through study. It is my understanding that we have

God, the most high and almighty, who rules heaven and created Earth.

Satan, the steward of Earth, rebelled against God because he believed in His own type of rule and not God's.

As punishment, God cast Satan out of Heaven and confined him to the Earth.

In order to ensure no other rebellions in Heaven, God lets Satan rule the Earth as he wished to prove that Satan's way of rule can never work, and God is in fact the only path to peace, life, love, etc. etc.

Eventually, things reach a critical point and God comes like a thief in the night, casts Satan into the pit, resurrects the righteous from the deep sleep, and let's paradise reign for 1,000 years before he releases Satan one last time to test us.

To the OP:
Great post! I studied with several sects of Christians growing up and learned about the hellfire myth early on and I'm glad you were able to write up such an excellently worded and coherent post on the translations.

I remember seeing a story many years ago in a tabloid (true/false stories) about an experiment in the former Soviet Union.

A few researchers in 'life after death' matters deliberately killed themselves by stopping their own hearts with a drug in a controlled experiment. They were naturally trying to find out what happened after they died. They were to be revived by a team of doctors before they got 'too' dead.

One went to hell, and came back upon resuscitation, and told about it.
One or two went to heaven, and came back upon resuscitation, and told about it.

Two didn't come back at all.

Make your own conclusions.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I agree there is no Hell and people do not go to hell and they do not go to heaven. Jesus Christ was the only man to have gone to heaven. That doesn't mean there is no Devil. I do not agree with the religions of today as they are false teachings however I'm very spiritual I do believe in God I believe that Satan is real and he is the one controlling our world through the Elites

reply to post by Avenginggecko


I don't think you can properly call hell a myth without first addressing the verses posted by simplynoone and I. Hell is no myth.

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I don't know why so many people STILL refuse to see that Satan was an invention of the bible writers based on the older Sumerian battle between Enlil (god) and Enki (god's adversary)

The Myth of Satan

The Origin of The Devil

Misunderstanding who Lucifer actually was

Or to view the evidence suggesting reincarnation WAS supported in the Bible


Reincarnation in the Bible

The above looks into the NT , but there is an even greater wealth of evidence within the books that were banned from making it into the final edit.

You are all going around in circles.

Just to clarify: Hell and Purgatory ARE NOT the same. Hell is eternal, Purgatory isn't.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

My theory - probably nuts, is that God did let Satan have the earth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that we are therefore living in Satan's kingdom, which is hell on earth.

Look around at all the evil and suffering in the world - Satan must be thrilled.

I beleive the same thing as u. You are correct God did let Satan live here after he was banished from Gods Kingdom but that will all change soon when he is banished from the earth and will no longer be able to deceive mankind.