When Words Can Kill: 'That's So Gay'

Didn't have time to read through all the posts, so, sorry if this point has already been made. If the kid hanged himself over something as trivial as name-calling, he obviously had some serious emotional issues. Someone in that emotionally distraught state could have been set off by anything. I'm not defending the bullies or what they did to him; i just don't think that's the whole story.


TheAssociate

Originally posted by Leto

Originally posted by jfj123


So what's the difference if a child bullies another child or an adult bullies another adult? That's why I gave you the example of a bully taking your food and house. If you think bullying is ok, then it's ok in general. You can't have it both ways. So no calling the cops, just take it. If a bigger, stronger person wants your house and you can't stop them, you lose your house. Just a different version of bullying. I bet it's now different since it's you though, right?

[edit on 16-4-2009 by jfj123]

It's not comparable, school bullying isn't a crime, home robbery is.

Depending on how badly you "bully" someone you can be charged with harassment or assault. It's also legal for the parents of the victim to take action against school officials and even the school board. By the way, how is something only wrong if it is deemed a "crime"?

[edit on 17-4-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by Leto

You're not understanding the difference between a negative behavior (bullying) and a crime (house robbery).
You know why kids who steal in elementary school aren't sent to jail? Because it's a learning process, these children don't have the necessary experience to comprehend why stealing and bullying is bad. School gives them the opportunity to learn why stealing and bullying is wrong.

Actually the educational system typically does not teach why theft is bad. They teach history, read, writing, math, science, etc..
It's up to the parents to teach their children ethical behavior.

And yes, from time to time, children do go to jail.

The reality is that you think bullying is acceptable ONLY when it's children. Children are the least able to defend themselves which means it's our job to protect them.
Using your logic, a child should play in traffic so they learn it's a bad idea to play in traffic.

Sorry I'm not buying it.
Bullying is wrong, no if's and's or but's.

And once again, if bullying is ok for children, it should be ok as an adult and thus should not be a crime either. Maybe the adult bully didn't learn why bullying is bad, as you say, in school so then it must be ok for him/her to continue bullying.

[edit on 17-4-2009 by jfj123]

Originally posted by alphabetaone
Originally posted by jfj123

First, might I suggest your snotty attitude. You tend to get what you give.

Seems you can't discern the difference between snotty attitude and utter disbelief in one persons inability to process real information from imagined.

I can and it was SNOTTY.

Originally posted by jfj123
You don't have to beat your child to discipline them.

See what I mean about imagined? At what point did ANYONE say ANYTHING about beating their kids?

Well here is what you said.

Life for parents has gotten SO friggin out of control that they can't even discipline their children without the fear of going to jail

Are you implying that a parent would go to jail for grounding a child?
or taking away their nintendo for a week?
or making them go to their room?
etc....

All I said was that parents cant DISCIPLINE their kids without fear of going to jail for it. Seems to ME that you associate discipline solely with beating children.

If you actually think that, you shouldn't have children. All my sisters and brothers have kids and their kids have kids and a few of their kids even have kids. Do you know how many of them are worried about going to jail for disciplining their kids? NONE.

Perhaps it's people like you who share that concept that have ensured that all these children are way too damn sensitive in the first place and cant deal with a little name calling.

Originally posted by jfj123
You seem a little sensitive yourself. Can't take a little criticism?

Originally posted by jfj123
might I suggest you DON'T HAVE KIDS !

I dont have any nor plan on it.

That's probably best for everyone.

Originally posted by jfj123
Teachers see children bullying others.

Impossible for this to always be the case, they're only human.

Of course it's not always the case but as I said here, and as we both know, teachers DO see bullying and many times, choose to ignore it.

Originally posted by jfj123
People on the street see husbands hitting their wives and have done nothing.

Of course, because every person on the street actually gets the opportunity to see this happening, and, instead of doing something, they make some popcorn and what? Pull up a lawn chair?

Other then me, I bet more then one person in this thread alone has seen this happen. Oh and yes I did get involved.

Originally posted by jfj123
Don't blame the state for the parents shortcomings.

LMAO im definitively NOT blaming the state...I'm blaming people like you who are making it too soft on kids and as a result they can't deal with the harsher realities of life. Oooooops, I'm sorry, will I get a timeout for that remark? Better head to My PSP or Xbox and feel better about the timeout.

I don't think we should coddle children. Just the opposite actually. We should teach them respect, self reliance,responsibility and consequences for ones actions. Ironically if this was done, there would be no bullying.

But we shouldn't try to teach them that playing in traffic is bad by letting them play in traffic by having them play in traffic.

Preventing bully's from attacking other children doesn't make children soft.
Also if a bully can be broken of the behavior as a child, he/she won't bring that behavior into the adult world. Child bully's typically continue their behavior as adults if they are not impeded as children.

Originally posted by jfj123
Stop making excuses and start doing something about the problem.

I am not a parent so I don't exactly have a vested interest in "the problem",

No why would you want to positively contribute to your society? Why get involved ? Why care about possibly preventing another columbine ? Yeah that's not your problem. You gots your own problems and don't wanna be bothered with stupid stuff like that huh?

however, that notwithstanding I DID do something about the problem, just a few seconds ago. I made you aware that your mentality is a direct result of causing it.

This statement might actually indicate YOU are part of the problem.

That's about as far as I'm willing to go to correct "the problem".

You've failed already then.


[edit on 17-4-2009 by jfj123]

I hope this child's soul is at peace. His mother's grief will unfortunately be for ever. The teachers and the bullies will probably get over it and move on without realizing their guilt.

I do not know exactly what led to this terrible outcome, but some things are not hard to figure out:
- Black culture and black religion often portray being outwardly gay as a big taboo. Both were probably a factor here.
- Teachers and schools have a spotty track record in acknowledging uniqueness in individuals. A guy who is not macho, and who is sensitive will get little "sympathy" or support from the system. Why does every guy have to be macho? Lots of sensitive men have ended up making great contributions to society.
- Unfortunately "gay" is the universal new taunt term. In my day it was "queer" or "fag". Kids will always be brutal on each other; especially the perceived to be weaker ones. Its up to the adults to intervene when necessary - acknowledging that the tougher ones don't need the help.

Originally posted by alphabetaone
reply to post by Laurauk

 

What are you talking about?

Ignorance is uninformed. He wasn't uninformed about the situation, perhaps callous but not uninformed.

You and a few others have stated what a "travesty" this whole situation is, yet I haven't seen a single comprehensive solution on YOUR parts either. Why do you think that is? Because there IS none.

You think Myspace's and Facebook's and Tweet's have all of a sudden spawned this "exponential" growth of youth suicide? Are you kidding me? This has been since time immemorial. Simply because information ABOUT these occurences travels at the speed of light is why the information is exponentially more visible.

Youth WILL continue to commit suicide because that is the toughest part of life. And YES these thin-skinned kids WILL do it and their families will be sad. End of story, there is no real answer. In fact, like one of the posters on the first page alluded to here, overly sanitized,heavily regulated and structured environment. As soon as a small piece of that structure breaks down for them (because clearly they couldn't know any better lacking the appropriate social skills not prevalent in this digital society) a complete loss; a complete breakdown of all they know that is real and then, swinging on the end of a electrical cord seems to furnish the comfort lost by that breakdown.

I look out at the sky every single night and it's yellow. Am I ignorant? Or simply colorblind.


AB1

I was not responding to you, lets get that one correctfirst of all, I wa responding to Dabeasts comments, so read first before you jump to conclusions. Plus you took what I posted, you took it out on context.

Originally posted by jfj123
I can and it was SNOTTY.

LOL, well, fortunately for myself and others I'm sure, your perception is not synonymous with fact.

Originally posted by jfj123
Are you implying that a parent would go to jail for grounding a child?
or taking away their nintendo for a week?
or making them go to their room?
etc....

Not at all, I'm suggesting that based on trends today, parents are fearful of scolding their kids, of acting on a situation when it arises, mostly in a public setting. Why? Because all of you Johnny do-gooders with your cell phone cameras and video see a parent harshly scolding their child (OMG they got angry, that must = bad parent) and decide to call the cops on them of family services or what have you. And yes, this HAS happened.
Kids aren't stupid they realize this and take advantage of it to the extreme. Kids mentality are somewhat like puppies to a degree in that they will push the envelope to see the maximum amount they can get away with. Until they reach that threshold, everything is fair game. That said, why would a parent want to expose themselves to that kind of unnecessary (and unfair) treatment from authorities. Hence, they become fearful of discipline.

Originally posted by jfj123
All my sisters and brothers have kids and their kids have kids and a few of their kids even have kids. Do you know how many of them are worried about going to jail for disciplining their kids? NONE.

Fantastic news!

Originally posted by jfj123
You seem a little sensitive yourself. Can't take a little criticism?

I can take criticism; and yes, I'm very sensitive, hold me?

Originally posted by jfj123
That's probably best for everyone.

Without doubt.

Originally posted by jfj123
Of course it's not always the case but as I said here, and as we both know, teachers DO see bullying and many times, choose to ignore it.

We BOTH know? I can't say I know simply because I've never witnessed it. So, I can assume, but I can say for sure that I dont know it happens.

Originally posted by jfj123
Other then me, I bet more then one person in this thread alone has seen this happen. Oh and yes I did get involved.

If you say so, I'm not willing to make that claim, however it's off-topic anyway so no sense dwelling on it.

Originally posted by jfj123

I don't think we should coddle children. Just the opposite actually. We should teach them respect, self reliance,responsibility and consequences for ones actions.

Agreed.

Originally posted by jfj123
Ironically if this was done, there would be no bullying.

Are you a PHd? That's conducted studies, control sets, peer-reviewed results, that allow you to make such a bold claim? there would be no bullying.

You shouldn't make an attempt to introduce as fact your opinion.

Originally posted by jfj123
But we shouldn't try to teach them that playing in traffic is bad by letting them play in traffic by having them play in traffic.

Um, ok, I agree. What's that got to do with anything? I'm not suggesting that the victim of being bullied learn how not to bully, by becoming a bully. I'm suggesting that the kid was too sensitive and that parents in general should learn how to keep their kids from falling victim to it by teaching them how to be resilient to it.

Originally posted by jfj123

No why would you want to positively contribute to your society?

I contribute to my society in many ways. I just dont think "the problem" is actually a problem at all.

Originally posted by jfj123
Why get involved ?

With this issue? I won't. There's no need to.

Originally posted by jfj123
Why care about possibly preventing another columbine ?

LMAO, wait a second, are you suggesting that columbine was the direct result of kids being bullies? Again, here we are back to square one. Kids will always AND have always had their own little cliques. There will always be one that doesn't feel as though they dont fit in anywhere.

For starters here PARENTS should A) not leave enough firearms around for there to BE another columbine. B) Be there for their children to provide them with support at the times they dont feel as though they fit in anywhere C) Help them to understand that there is no possible way that everyone (or potentially ANYONE) will ever like them; that they need to help them nurture a sense of self-worth

Originally posted by jfj123
This statement might actually indicate YOU are part of the problem.

So, let me get this straight, you respond to me suggesting that you may be a part of the problem, by telling me that I am? What is this? "I know you are but what am I"? At least I had the courtesy of giving reason for suggesting it lol.




AB1

[edit on 17-4-2009 by alphabetaone]

reply to post by alphabetaone


So what if the victim, instead of taking his own life, decided to "grow a pair" as was put in this thread and pulled a gun on the bullies the next time they decided to torture him. What if he decided he'd had enough and would make an example of the main bully by putting a couple of bullets in him?

If the bully didn't die would you tell him to buck it up and take those bullets like a man, getting shot is a learning experience?

Originally posted by sos37
reply to post by alphabetaone

 

So what if the victim, instead of taking his own life, decided to "grow a pair" as was put in this thread and pulled a gun on the bullies the next time they decided to torture him.

Why can't there just be middle ground? Why does everyone have to be so extreme in their minds' eye?

First off, I would like to see proof of said "torture" to this kid that threw him over the edge.

Secondly, if (instead of your absolute extreme version of what MAY have occurred) this kid decided to "grow a pair" (which is not necessarily my idea of how to deal with the situation) and decided to turn the tables by bullying THEM back a bit, yes, THAT I would certainly not be averse to.

Originally posted by sos37
What if he decided he'd had enough and would make an example of the main bully by putting a couple of bullets in him?

Again, I find it counter-intuitive to assume this would have happened and far to the extreme.

Originally posted by sos37
If the bully didn't die would you tell him to buck it up and take those bullets like a man, getting shot is a learning experience?

More of the same, unfortunately.
I don't find leaning too far to EITHER side makes for a constructive discussion on ANY topic. It's far too divisive, emotional, and rife with extreme opinion. Clearer heads always have to prevail without all of this emotional baggage weighing it down.


AB1

Originally posted by alphabetaone

Originally posted by sos37
reply to post by alphabetaone

 

First off, I would like to see proof of said "torture" to this kid that threw him over the edge.

AB1

The kid's suicide isn't proof enough? The mother's story that she had petitioned the school on a number of occasions begging them to intervene in the bullying because her son was constantly distraught - that's not proof??? The mother saying that was again on her way to the school to discuss this very situation before she found her son hanging by an extension cord - THAT's not proof???

How much more damning does evidence have to be for you to admit that this was what pushed the boy over the edge?

Making excuses and ignoring the problem isn't going to solve it.

The mother would be well within her right to sue the school board and the parents of the bullies for this tragedy. I hope she does and I hope she wins, if for no other reason than to drive home the point that

1. It's not okay for a school to sit idly by and do nothing while its own students suffer - that's called negligence

2. For the parents of the bullies to pay the rest of their lives, even if it's by paying money to a charitable organization, they should be paying something. It will pale in comparison to the loss that the mother of the boy is experiencing every day for the rest of her life.

[edit on 17-4-2009 by sos37]

reply to post by sos37


Some people think that victims can take things forever, and just think its great destroying them. Shame the kid did not look inwards, like i did, to cope.

But if you walked a mile in this persons shoes, you would understand. There must be so much of this type of bullying going on, and its great when the bullies, think, why doesn't the person grow a spine, while they have never been bullied like it in there lifes.

I have taken a lot of crap from a lot of people in my day but hanging yourself just because a group of guys is picking on you IS pretty gay.

Originally posted by Boxygirl
I have taken a lot of crap from a lot of people in my day but hanging yourself just because a group of guys is picking on you IS pretty gay.

I'd venture a guess with your point count and registration date of today that you're one of this thread's main antagonists just re-registered as another user.

Either way, you're still part of the problem and not the solution.

Nope i have been like a lurker for yeeeeaaarrrrsss now. Its like survuval of the fitest if he could not take being called gay what chance did he stand in life? Its kind of like eugenics but they kill themselves off

Originally posted by Boxygirl
Nope i have been like a lurker for yeeeeaaarrrrsss now. Its like survuval of the fitest if he could not take being called gay what chance did he stand in life? Its kind of like eugenics but they kill themselves off

Your a nice person aren't you.

Would you say the same to that persons family in real life, i think you probably would wouldn't you.

Some people on here.

Well, I can tell you that babies are not born bullies. They are bred by their family circle. I grew up in the 50's and there were bullies. Just about all of them had a horrible family structure. Today most of the kids are growing up with both parents working, other's have a single parent home. Your hardly never see a family that is well structured and involved with their kids breed bullies. Also, now that we handcuffed the teachers you cannot address this issue in a approiate way. The schools of the 90;s plus are a far world off from the 50's and 60's. But, lets continue to reward single mothers for having 3 and 4 kids to populate the school system. Give the power back to the teachers and hold the parents accoutable for raising their Kids.

Kids can just be real monsters to eachother. I reckon ideals like respect and compassion are things that have to be taught and regularly reinforced to stop kids sliding the slippery slope into ignorance and conceit.
Kids who just luuurve to make others' lives hell probably have incredibly bad home lives, and the parents just don't give a fig, spoilt or deprived, it makes no difference.

When I was but a nipper, I was one of five who took to learning german as an optional subject. The incredibly inventive and well-informed self appointed douchebags thought it would be great to refer to us as 'the Nazi party'. We didn't off ourselves (then again we weren't that poor kid in this instance), rather we shoved them all in the school pond and that was that! We would have been suspended had we not been let off the hook by our teacher. What a Legend.

Some people are missing the point here, and I wonder if those who advocate that bullies/abusers are just a part of life, were/are bullies/abusers themselves and have emotional problems they are ignoring.

Generally those who advocate abuse, are abusers themselves and refuse to see it, and bullying is a form of abuse. Maybe those of you advocating for bullying should take a good hard look in a mirror.

Working in the school system, as I have said, bullies generally have parents who are bullies. So these children grow up with the idea that abuse/bullying is an acceptable way to treat others.

Yes, life is tough, it does not have to be full of abuse though, life already has enough stress related situations that we do not have to add bullying on top of it to "toughen" kids up.

I never bullied other kids, not ALL kids do this, my children are not bullies, I DO NOT ALLOW IT. They know that harming another person is not ok, and bullying another person, is causing harm to another person.

It is the attitude that bullying/abuse is just a part of life, that creates a society that allows abuse.

alphabetaone, teachers DO see bullying take place and do nothing. They do not know how to deal with it and because chances are they will be dealing with bully parents. How do teachers deal with bully parents? As little as possible. Think about it, you have a child who keeps bullying others, so you call in the parents, and they start complaining that the child that was bullied should "grow some" and that their child bullying other children is just a learning experience which they will outgrow and "kids will be kids". But, how do they outgrow it, when their parents are supporting the attitude?

They don't, they grow up believing that bullying/abusing is just a part of life, and chances are, they grow up to be adult bullies/abusers.

I have a friend who's daughter in Elementary started bullying other children. I tried talking with her about this, and she became very defensive and "protective" of her child. No parent want's to hear that their child may be harming others.

Unfortunately, in the end her daughter has caused intense problems for the family, and it all started in Elementary when she refused to deal with her daughters bullying attitude. She just could not admit, or see that her precious daughter, was a bully. Years later she apologized to me for her reaction as she finally realized (when her daughter reached high school), that it was now too late to change what she had allowed to take place.

She now has a daughter, who is mean to other people and does not accept responsibility for her actions, and who runs to daddy or mommy every time she gets in trouble to be bailed out. The girl has parents who are enablers, parents who refused to step in and stop the bullying. They have created a cycle which they do not know how to step out of. If they had started in Elementary, and stopped their daughters bullying immediately, she would not now be a young adult who is a bully.

My point being, this young adult was never taught that bullying was "bad behavior", and she now continues being a bully with a me only attitude. She is growing into an adult, who feels no responsibility when she harms another person, she has no conscious or "guilt" emotions when her behavior negatively impacts people around her.

If we all taught our children that bullying/abuse was NOT ACCEPTABLE, then children would not be bullying/abusing others, and we would then have a society with far less adult abuse.

Peace