Support Abortion? Watch this video and please defend your decisions...

Originally posted by Monger

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by MattMulder

 

If the fetus poses no health risk to the mother and the mother doesn't want the child what would be the harm of carrying it to term and finding adoptive parents for the newborn instead of aborting it?

Nine months of pain and discomfort. Mood instability, weight gain, not to mention a slew of other changes, some temporary and others permanant.

If an abortion isn't right for you, fine, nobody forces pro-lifers to get them. Those of us who believe in a woman's right to choose don't seek to force abortions upon you by law, I wish the same were true for the pro-life camp.

If you read my other posts I have stated that I don't force my opinion on anyone.

What my post that you replied to asked, if no health problems posed a risk why not adoption.

You failed to answer that with your answer of 9 months of discomfort.

I ask again and I am not forcing my opinion, just want an answer since you wanted to reply.

What is the harm in adoption if no health risk is a concern for the mother?

You don't have to reply if you don't want to, but if you do give a straight answer pleae.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


If you had the option to make abortion illegal and did so would you raise the unwanted children? Would you be responsible for their well being? Would you pay for them to have a decent life with decent things and a decent education?

Originally posted by jd140

Originally posted by Monger

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by MattMulder

 

If the fetus poses no health risk to the mother and the mother doesn't want the child what would be the harm of carrying it to term and finding adoptive parents for the newborn instead of aborting it?

Nine months of pain and discomfort. Mood instability, weight gain, not to mention a slew of other changes, some temporary and others permanant.

If an abortion isn't right for you, fine, nobody forces pro-lifers to get them. Those of us who believe in a woman's right to choose don't seek to force abortions upon you by law, I wish the same were true for the pro-life camp.

If you read my other posts I have stated that I don't force my opinion on anyone.

What my post that you replied to asked, if no health problems posed a risk why not adoption.

You failed to answer that with your answer of 9 months of discomfort.

I ask again and I am not forcing my opinion, just want an answer since you wanted to reply.

What is the harm in adoption if no health risk is a concern for the mother?

You don't have to reply if you don't want to, but if you do give a straight answer pleae.

The world doesn't need any more unwanted children, period. I believe my answer was a perfectly valid one. Just because you chose to dismiss it out of hand because you don't agree is of no concern to me.

First. I will say I have to agree with George Carlin,

"If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-schooled, you're !@#$%*. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers."

Why is everyone all about protecting the lives of the unborn? You don't care about the babies that are born and now starving. But they have a right to be born and live through that. Right.

I believe it is no ones business to so firmly turn their nose up at something just because they think 'killing is wrong' yet they still eat bloody steaks with no problem. That cow was killed too you know. Not because your life would be extremely difficult had it not been. Just for your pleasure in taste.

Just because you are programmed to believe that animals are only produced for food must mean they do not have rights to live either. For this reason alone, I feel anyone who eats animals cannot talk, for they are already strongly contradicting themselves. Unless of course you just think humans are higher than every other living thing.

I also have had a friend who felt the same way, but found herself unexpectedly pregnant. Her views changed real quick on that topic.

Supportive, I went with her to the clinic so she didn't have to tell her family. What did we encounter there? BRAINWASHED Christians that were literally HARASSING us. The clinic filed charges against these people, because they were totally out of line. Not to mention how that made her feel about one of the most difficult decisions she has ever made.

All I have ever witnessed and experienced first hand is pro-lifers who shove the bible down your throat and gruesome pictures.

It is uncalled for.

I'm all for adoption, if that person feels they can handle it. Most people you talk to about that say it's so much harder to do, carry it for the whole pregnancy, telling yourself not to bond at all when your so emotional, then give it up, knowing your whole life that someone else is caring for your child. Most of them had wished they did not go through with it, or ever get over it.

Shame on anyone who believes they should enforce a decision about anything on anyone. Argue the God issue. I'm pretty sure he gave you free will and told you not to judge.



[edit on 26-3-2009 by ohh_pleasee]

Interestingly enough that lack of respect is treated with more lack of respect.

Will we grow up to find ourselves incapable of deciding for ourselves? Maybe, to be thrown away by our own race one sunny morning.

To be free is wonderful, maybe even celebrated. Choice... makes me feel proud to have free will day after day. The concepts of our illusion misconstruied bothers you, distracts.

Suffering is something you will have to overcome yourself. But we all have choice. Do not judge freely, that is not your position of authority.

Our knowledge is limited in this very crude illusion.

Choice.

Be In Peace.

reply to post by Layla

The decision, if wrong, is something each woman who makes it will have to deal with between her and God.

This is the arguement in a nutshell.

Whether it's right or wrong is up to the individual. Personally? I don't much care for most abortions. But I also know that it's not my call to make for anyone, legally or morally. As a male, I've nothing, nor should I have, frankly...to say in the matter. I would probably feel differently if it were my girlfreind/wife having the procedure, but again, maybe not.

Ultimately? It's the womans right to choose, as it should be. No video is going to change that.

Originally posted by Smack

I'm afraid you are wrong about that, but I might as well argue with you as to whether or not the sun is hot. It is a biological fact. Ask your Biology teacher.
But that isn't really what I was arguing to begin with. You said:

The only thing that will ever settle this argument is when science comes to a concensus and declares the moment life begins.....and society agrees with it. Until then, there is no chance at a viable solution.

That isn't the argument at all because there is scientific consensus that it does begin at fertilization. It couldn't happen before that.

There is no consensus because there are multiple theories within the scientific community. Did you look at this link? It is from a biology book....

When does life begin?

Until science can agree, there is never going to be a clear cut "winner" in this argument. It will rage until there is a point where science agrees when life actually begins.

[edit on 3/26/2009 by skeptic1]

Even if science could agree it'd still be an issue. People argue for the rights of a fetus (vs the mother's) yet in doing that they reduce the woman's life to that of a mere incubator.. secondary to the importance of the fetus. In fact the woman becomes secondary to everyone if they can force her to carry a pregnancy against her will. Speaking of fee will.. isn't that in the bible somewhere or was that given only to men?

I haven't watched the video and it wouldn't change my views anyway.

I don't normally participate in these sort of debates, because you can never change the mind of the other person on an issue such as this. As I see it, it's an issue of the spiritual health of the person, and no other person can change that through reason alone. I should know. I walked one of my friends through a long argument that I had built up after reading a couple of books on it as well as some philosophy books and doing some introspection and soul searching. At the end of the conversation he said that he had been thinking wrongly about abortion. Then a few months later the topic was brought up again, and he had forgotten everything I said (which I didn't mind), and had the same opinion he had in the past. My point is, you can't change someone's mind on this topic, it's part of being an imperfect being. All we can do is love and lead by example.

I will pose some questions, just to see your replies because it interests me. If the baby is born, is it alright to terminate it if no one wants it? What if it is also brain-dead? If you think it should be allowed to live, what is it about the act of birth that grants the baby its rights?

And similarly, if you think that one's level of "awareness" or "consciousness" is a barometer of whether one should be allowed to live, what about a senior with Alzheimer's? Should we terminate them, why or why not?

If you think that a fetus shouldn't be birthed because they'll have a bad life, should we terminate those who are living in abject poverty and suffering, to prevent further suffering? Is life only as valuable as the amenities it brings?

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Until you have been in the situation where you have to make this choice you have NO right to try and tell others what they should do or how they should feel. I personally have been in this situation and it is NOT pleasant nor is it something one likes to discuss. You have no idea what circumstances bring one to this choice. I will not even watch your video because I am sure it is like all the others thrown in ones face.

I remember being in 11th grade and the church youth group I was in showed a very graphic abortion video to TEENAGERS and that's when I left that church. It was not something someone at that age needs to see. I didnt feel it was their right to tell me what I should believe in. My mother was very upset about it and so were many other parents. They lost people at the church over showing that video.

Anyways...until you are faced with this decision do NOT judge others. You have NO IDEA what it's like or how affects you later in life. Throwing videos like this in ones face is sick.

have you ever been raped????

no???

then...shut the **** up!


--also is their choice..not yours.....

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Next_Heap_With]

The basis of anti-abortion runs like this:

"Lets save babies because they're cute and cuddly the rest of human kind can go to hell because they're no-longer innocent."

Reminds me of:

"Save the panda, throw money at panda protection baecause they're cute and cuddly. The other dying global species can be wiped out."

Anti-abortion logic is childish at best. From the people I have met the push it as their own fervent extremist ideal, they usually have a very comfortable western lifestyle with lots of food on the table and haven't gone through the horror of poverty, hunger, rape or drug addiction. (Whe i say extremist, don't get me wrong, just check out some of the propaganda on youtube or go to a debate on the subject).

If they put this much effort in helping others that are suffering instead of targeting and hating the people that are having to make the terrible decision of going through abortion they might actually achieve their pro-life objective.

I did read a post earlier where somebody mentioned that whatever you say or write to pro-lifers changes nothing. Its true.

It just causes polariazation and usually a torrent of hatred and abuse. So this topic is really just an opportunity for somebody to preach hatred.

God loves you all even the ones having abortions right now and the doctors carrying them out. Peace.

Originally posted by skeptic1
Here is a little more on the scientific (and cultural and religious) views on when life begins.

There is no consensus, even (and especially) in the scientific community.

When does life begin?

Well you're not being totally honest here are you.

Like the other poster said, it's biology 101 LIFE begins at conception what we call that life, to sanitize and insulate us from the grim reality of what I imagine would or at least should be one of the most tragic decisions a woman would ever be compelled to have to make as a very last resort under the harshest mitigating circumstances.

I have seen the OP being ridiculed, his video labled propaganda, as if the word propaganda invalidates the information you all have judged as propaganda, with most of you judging it, do so in the same voice you say you refused to see it. Another claimed he had the op's convictions shoved down his throat, but I would bet the farm that he was pretty safe on the otherside of that monitor and no one is waterboarding anyone into any religion either. I think what he felt being shoved down his throat was the lump of guilt being convicted by the OP but I could be wrong. I doubt it .

I have argued this topic many times and pro choice and many other terms they use to insulate those who actually buy into this illogical argument about choice, is the choice to be able to execute terminate kill murder, euthanize, a human embro, infant, baby, zygote, fetus, I don't care what you call it, someone dies, blood is spilled and it is very unfortunate we see people defending the right to do this as if it was something they know they are going to do and not as if they would regret having to.

I guess you don't have any foresight and know your promiscuity or lack of responsibility may need the added insurance or get out of jail free card to escape assuming the responsibilty, a consequence of sex because as we all know,, most people that do this were raped or were incestuously violated. I have seen some here givijng statistic's on how these people would have had a crappy life. I ask, compared to what? They are DEAD! It's a paradox you cannot reconcile.

Morally it is wrong and the choice she makes leaves a biological argument for double homicides in pregnant murder cases when what is a baby during the killing of a pregnant woman when the same act in an abortion is only tissue like removing a wart when it is executed during infanticidal abortions of Births.

This isn't a life AFTER it leaves the womb, make no mistake it is called "Abortion" or to abort something already started already alive and the choice she makes either forces a male who may not have wanted to finance a child to 18 but he is forced to regardless.

If it is ONLY about a woman's right to choose, he has child support and no get out of jail free card. Then we have a guy who may be left with the other alternative, a excruciatingly painfull experience of hoplessness as the mother of his son or daughter plays God, ( ironic isn't it) and has his offspring ripped to shreads and executed but not to worry the baby won't care and the father doesn't have to carry it for nine WHOLE MONTHS!

Just pays for something he may want a choice about also for the kids entire life.

It is a tragic and unfortunate circumstance and GUY,, it is TOO have to do with our choice. Don't BUY that crap that it is only about woman.

Man up fight for BOTH and pay your child support

This was the consensus on HOW this question shouold be approched

However, understanding the basis for societal moral standards appears to be the key to discerning how to approach the question of when human life begins. Science has not been able to give a definitive answer to this question.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Benbennit

"Lets save babies because they're cute and cuddly the rest of human kind can go to hell because they're no-longer innocent."

They are cute and cuddly, but I guess you think only infants go to soup kitchens, crisis pregnancy centers(Which help women find jobs many times) or prison ministries or shelters.

they usually have a very comfortable western lifestyle with lots of food on the table and haven't gone through the horror of poverty, hunger, rape or drug addiction.

I've been through ALL that, even having to feed my children popcorn, because we had no food. No phone or car and sometimes no power or heat!
I was addicted to speed and alcohol before I had my abortion.

God loves you all even the ones having abortions right now and the doctors carrying them out. Peace.

G-d HATES the Act!
He will end it one day.
If I hadn't had one, my child would be 18 right now. Doesn't matter, right?

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Aermacchi


Yes, I am being totally honest.

Religions do not have a consensus on when life begins.
Society does not have a consensus on when life begins.
Science does not have a consensus on when life begins.

All of us as individuals have an opinion on when life begins and that is what lines us up on the specific sides of this argument.

No matter what, a woman has the right to choose whether or not to end a pregnancy. And, until there is a consensus on when life actually begins, this debate will rage on. But, no matter what, I hope that women retain their right to choose.

reply to post by skeptic1


I was trying to explain to you that your argument doesn't even enter into this debate. The argument would be about "viability" not if it is alive, because it obviously is alive otherwise it wouldn't need killing.

Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote. [England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception). "Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]

Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus. [Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]

Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus.
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]

The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote. [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

I could go on but I think you can see that there is no real debate here about when life begins.

The "pro-abortion" people will never try to force anyone to have an abortion.

The "pro-life" people try to force people to have babies they don't want, all the time.

Pro-abortion is pro freedom, pro privacy, pro choice. Let each family be responsible for your own.

Have you read the stories of the government taking peoples' children away because they "weren't raising them right"? This is where the idea that we have a right to control other people and make them do what we think is right has taken us.

This has always been a problem for humanity, and humanity has always chosen in favor of the mother. Before we had birth control and medical procedures, families took their newborn babies out to the "wilderness" to die of exposure or be taken by predators and scavengers.

If you don't approve of that, or of abortion, then you don't have to do it. No one is asking you to. But where do you get the right to tell me that I have to behave according to your standards?

If you're going to oppose abortion like this, better be careful and think it through. Because the flip side of taking away the right to choose from other people is that other people may get to make rules about how you can raise your children.

Don't want your kids in public school? Too bad, it's the law.
Think a swat on the rear is good discipline? No, it's abuse. Watch your kids get raised by strangers while you fight to stay out of jail.
Is hamburger or pizza a good kids' meal? Not any more, you better feed them according to our nutritional plan or we'll take them away from you.

Is potentially giving up control of YOUR children worth forcing someone else to have a child they don't want?

PS Yes, I watched your video. Doesn't change a thing.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


I'm just wondering if you are equally horrified at the atrocities being committed where innocent women, children and babies are being slaughtered in Gaza, with the full complicity of the US government. Or is your horror confined to just foetuses.

Just wondering that's all.

how exactly is this a conspiracy? lol

women's rights!

That link isn't working for me. I actually did want to try and answer the original question raised.

I am pro-choice and I am also against the death penalty, and before anyone smugly tries to point out the hypocracy, I'm sure I could easily find a lot of murderous pro-lifers.

As a male tho I do believe I can have an opinion on this matter. I always think it's a cop out for guys to say that's womens business and walk away.

But the problem here is when is it accepted to abort? It seems to be alright if it puts the mothers life at risk. Would any pro-lifers expect a woman to try to go full term if the doctors said there was a 95% chance it would kill her?

So if it is accepted that abortion is alright under these conditions isn't it accepted that the rights of a born adult person outweigh those of an unborn child.

Even in the circumstance of rape there will be some women who strongly believe they should still have the child and if that's how they feel more power to them, but that in no way should change the mind of another person under the same circumstance who makes a different choice.

The biggest problem I believe with abortion is the mental anguish it can leave the mothers with. However people make good and bad decisions all the time and it's up to the person involved to be as informed as possible before they make the decision. I guess that's what being an adult is all about.

The bottom line is that it is a question of beliefs.
A Pro-lifer has no business telling a pro-choicer what to do and vice versa.

Just out of curiosity tho, how many militant pro-choicers have bombed churches?